49 Defever bilge bulge

[BogCollector]

Survey day today. Surveyor found a bulge in the fiberglass at the bottom of the forward bilge where the holding tank is. It’s about 6 inches wide by 9 feet long. Extends from the tank to the engine room bulkhead. It’s full of brown water which we think is resin colored. It doesn’t smell like sewer. If you stand on it firmly and move around it deforms.
The owners say it has always been there. They painted the area a few months ago.
The surveyor pointed out that no insurer will cover the boat until it is fixed.
This is likely to be an expensive repair. Maybe in the 5 figures.
I’m thinking about asking for a core sample to be taken so we can see how deep the damage goes to help us figure out a repair estimate.

Everything else about the vessel is very good.
What do you think?

 

[Comodave]

Sounds like water has penetrated the deck and probably rotted out the wood. That may be why the water is brown. I think you will have to cut the area open and see what it looks like on the inside. The owner would have to do this or have it done on his dime. I doubt the owner would let you do it since you could easily walk away. If I am understanding you correctly it is on the inside of the bilge and not in the hull. It could be a minor repair if it is just localized or it could be really, really expensive if the rot extends throughout the whole bilge and is only showing in the one area. Remember, don’t get emotionally attached to the boat because it could have a serious problem, be ready to walk away. Anyway, good luck.

 

[BogCollector]

Here’s a photo

 

[Comodave]

I would not proceed with the purchase until it is resolved. Doesn’t matter if it has always been there, it could be a sign of a large problem. I would ask the seller to have it opened up and evaluated by your surveyor.

 

[BruceK]

For me,he pic is not 100% helpful even enlarged. On your description, this is part of the inside skin of the hull, that`s worrying, like the hull layers have separated.
I doubt anyone who discovers it will buy without it resolved,the owner would be wise to bite the bullet and open up the area. Not sure I`d be taking core samples in the water.
These hulls, are they solid or cored? Where`s Sunchaser when you need him? Alaska!

 

[toocoys]

I'm with Dave. Probably a sign of larger and more extensive problems. And you have to think, if they painted over that a few months ago without repairing it first, what else have they painted over? 9 feet is a large area, I'd be wondering how much further into the layers it goes that hasn't begun to show yet.

ETA: I see you're local. Ask around and see if anyone knows the boat or the previous owners. You'll get much better information out of our boating community here locally, than you would any broker.

 

[PM]

I'm thinking that is a boat you do not want to own.

pete

 

[sunchaser]

Unfortunately some in depth study and investigation needs to be done. There is no shortcut, the boat needs to hauled and a top flight yard engaged to pull the sole, remove the holding tank and open up the “hollow” keel area in question.

At the same time the keel area aft of the forward bulkhead needs some penetrations to deduce similar issues. This cost and effort is on the current owner’s shoulders.

The good news is that the DF hulls are “usually” very well built, solid and thick. DeFever was not the builder, only the designer. Some yards took shortcuts on spec boats so hold the current owner’s feet to the fire on this issue. There are no shortcuts with necessary repairs expensive and time consuming. Some GBs from the 80s have suffered hollow keel problems, endemic from the Asian build quality of 4 decades ago.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[firehoser75]

+1 On the above. This is on the current owner. If I was you, before proceeding, I would want the current owner to have this investigated fully, with your surveyor intimately involved all along the way. Only after a complete repair to the satisfaction of my "experts" would I consider this boat. Even with a substantial "discount" on the price, I would not take the boat in this condition. These types of repairs have a habit of "expanding" in both scope, complexity, and price!

 

[Comodave]

We did a survey on a Formula recently. It had a lot of rotten bulkheads and stringers in the engine room. We were going to repower it so I could have dealt wit that during the repower, however we couldn’t determine if the rot extended into the aft cabin or maybe into the main cabin. The owner dropped the price significantly but we passed because we couldn’t say how bad the problem was. Same thing with this boat. It could be a relatively minor repair or it could extend the length of the boat or anything in between.

 

[Art]

Unless I missed it:

What year is the DF and is it cold lam over wood?

In general:

From what you say/show; unless owner can prove what actually is happening as well as to repair it to meet your and your surveyor's satisfaction - I'd Run Away!!!

 

[Russell Clifton]

I have never heard of a fiberglass Defever with wood in the hull. They are solid fiberglass.
That water may have come from the chain locker, could be from a rusty chain. I know my chain locker does not have a outside the hull drain.

Probably at sometime in the past someone drilled a hole to mount something into the hull (bilge pump, water pump, etc..) and the water leaked in through the years.
So that hole(s) needs to be found at some point.

 

[Taras]

Move onto the next boat.........pass on it.

 

[BruceK]

We did a survey on a Formula recently. It had a lot of rotten bulkheads and stringers in the engine room. We were going to repower it so I could have dealt wit that during the repower, however we couldn’t determine if the rot extended into the aft cabin or maybe into the main cabin. The owner dropped the price significantly but we passed because we couldn’t say how bad the problem was. Same thing with this boat. It could be a relatively minor repair or it could extend the length of the boat or anything in between.

Last year I walked on an Integrity 426 under contract. Survey pointed to rot in the port side of the house, shipwright checks suggested at least 6ft of it, but possibly more, possibly extending to the house "roof" and "floor", only determinable after commencing work. These things extend over time, Seller says it has always been like that(? for how long). I suggest investigate/observe rather than walk, but only on the Seller`s repair $. Without more,I would not infer the boat is a festering mess of covered up defects.

 

[slowgoesit]

Similar answers to the same question posted on the DeFever forum below:

https://defevercruisers.groups.io/g/Forum/topic/84103009

Some other owners chimed in, and the discussion adds a little info, but OP should post year and model of the boat, and also building shipyard if known for more informed responses.

My advice, for what it's worth, is don't buy until you know absolutely what the problem is, and what the fix is. That may not be known until it is opened up . . . probably not what you want to hear though . . .

 

[angus99]

The OP is getting some good, informed opinions—also some well-meaning advice to walk from people unfamiliar with these boats. Since it will (should) cost him nothing to find out the true extent of the problem, I agree with those recommending a thorough inspection by a competent yard. Also, an email to Wilson Lin, who likely built this boat, could help put bookends on what the problem might be and narrow the scope of the inspection by the yard. At this point, I’d walk only if the owner refuses to have the problem fully diagnosed and repaired.

 

[South of Heaven]

6x9 inches would be a non event......6x9 FEET is very troubling. Don't get emotionally attached to the boat. I'm sure you already love the boat because you're at the survey stage in the buying process but I'd advise you to make a calculated decision and walk away.

Even if you get a large discount and/or the problem fixed I'd still be worried that that particular hull number may be prone to intrusions...... What could happen in the future?

 

[hollywood8118]

I think, with the proper investigation by someone who has the correct knowledge.. if the issue turns out to be easily fixed it would be no problem. Keep in mind this isn't a new boat.. and ALL boats can have issue's. Some here seem to think boats should be perfect.. no matter the year or the price point. The pic of the issue with this boat isn't really clear.. but the bilge is clean and not a rats nest of hoses and wires. It could be a big deal.. or it could be something minor.. no need to over react until further investigation.
Hollywood

 

[Jeff F]

I'm with Hollywood. It's easy to say move on, but the next 40 year old boat is inevitably going to have some area of concern. The owner should recognize that without detailed investigation the boat isn't going to sell. Hang in there.

 

[janice142]

I seldom tie to a dock, however a ALWAYS bring both ends to Seaweed. I am able to release the line from one end (cleat) and pull it aboard. This is a habit picked up 60-plus years ago, and one I continue to this day. Should I need to leave immediately I can do so, and I keep my lines.

Now when docking I utilize whatever is most expedient to secure the boat. Then I break out other lines and fix stuff. Mostly I use either a spring or line amidship. Once the center is secured, Seaweed is going no place.

 

[STB]

I can't tell much from the picture. But, from the description, I'd like to note that fiberglass can blister from both the inside and from the outside. And, the inside isn't protected by layers of primer and bottom paint.

I can't visualize that part of that boat. But, I can imagine the chain locker, shaft seals, and many other things drain into that area and once may accumulate, or once have accumulated, there.

My three questions would be:

1) How many layers of glass are affected? In other words, how muchbof the hull's thickness is affected?

2) What is the source of the moisture?

3) If #2 is hard to answer, is it freshwater or salt water?

I don't think the area is doing that because it stayed dry, even if it is dry now. And, I'd be shocked if the ocean is oozing right through the hull there.

If the depth of it is shallow, I am more concerned about the source of water than the structure. If it is deep, that is a different story.

I don't think you necessarily need a core sample any more than you would for an outside blister. Just get permission to open the blister in a few places with an Awl and see how deep it is, just like you'd do on the outside.

I'd feel very differently if this were a cored hull. But, this is a solid glass hull, right?

Ultimately, if this is just a shallow blister, I'm not super worried. If this is a deep issue -- it is a dead deal.

I'm also curious if the glass peeling is.original, or if someone laid down a piece or few to cover old bilge pump holes or some other scar and that is now blistering up. I've seen plenty of repair glass bulge just like that because prep was done badly or resin choice or mix was suboptimal.

 

[BogCollector]

Thank you all very much for your replies. All very helpful.

I finally was able to contact Mr. Wilson Lin of the Pocta yard in Taiwan. He described the construction of the keel apparently the yard would typically throw in any left over scraps of fiberglass, cut bits that couldn't otherwise be used. Then they filled with resin, then a cap of foam. On top of that a plywood plank. Sealed with glass. Armed with that info, the owner opened up the whole bubble, cleaned it all out (the plywood was damp, but not mushy) the surveyor went by to approve it and now it's being sealed up. So we are go for closing later this week. An exciting time. Thanks again.

 

[HTurner]

Thank you all very much for your replies. All very helpful.

I finally was able to contact Mr. Wilson Lin of the Pocta yard in Taiwan. He described the construction of the keel apparently the yard would typically throw in any left over scraps of fiberglass, cut bits that couldn't otherwise be used. Then they filled with resin, then a cap of foam. On top of that a plywood plank. Sealed with glass. Armed with that info, the owner opened up the whole bubble, cleaned it all out (the plywood was damp, but not mushy) the surveyor went by to approve it and now it's being sealed up. So we are go for closing later this week. An exciting time. Thanks again.

I am glad it all worked out.

 

[Comodave]

Big relief for you. Congrats on your new boat, almost…

 

[Art]

Yea!!!

 

[Lou_tribal]

Thank you all very much for your replies. All very helpful.

I finally was able to contact Mr. Wilson Lin of the Pocta yard in Taiwan. He described the construction of the keel apparently the yard would typically throw in any left over scraps of fiberglass, cut bits that couldn't otherwise be used. Then they filled with resin, then a cap of foam. On top of that a plywood plank. Sealed with glass. Armed with that info, the owner opened up the whole bubble, cleaned it all out (the plywood was damp, but not mushy) the surveyor went by to approve it and now it's being sealed up. So we are go for closing later this week. An exciting time. Thanks again.

Am I the only one to find odd to seal a damp plywood? Ok it is not rotted but you will seal moisture in and be at risk of delamination because of the moisture.
Well I am not an expert in any way so just thinking out loud.

L

 

[AZ2Loop]

Am I the only one to find odd to seal a damp plywood? Ok it is not rotted but you will seal moisture in and be at risk of delamination because of the moisture.
Well I am not an expert in any way so just thinking out loud.

L

"Was" damp -- as in past tense. Likely allowed to dry before being sealed back up. Just a guess.