53ft, 2 Hands, No Thruster - Crazy or EZ?

[Xlantic]

The only times I wish I had a bow thruster is when backing into a slip, particularly if there is a cross wind.

In Mediterranean ports and marinas this is the standard docking procedure as fingers are virtually never used and boarding is directly from the dock or pontoon onto to the stern of the boat. Although sailboats and small motor boats often dock bow-first the bow on trawlers tends to be too high for boarding.

If you don't need to dock stern-to then I think you have less need for a thruster. You do need to develop your technique through research and practice.

Also, as mentioned above, I think it is much easier to learn line-handling than boat-handling.

 

[Mischief Managed]

I'd love to have thrusters, but my 50' LOA twin engine boat does not have them and I have no trouble handling it at all. I don't plan to add them.

 

[rslifkin]

As well, with twin rudders "somewhat" adjusted [obviously similarly] to one side or the other and props in one or another opposite thrust direction the boat can be moved sideways with thrust power adjustment on either prop's direction... for fine tuning!

This one is definitely boat specific. I actually tried this trick with my boat last night and it just won't do it. Too much prop walk, so it just spins against the rudder input no matter what you do and doesn't go sideways. It just pivots a little further back than normal and more slowly.

 

[Blissboat]

If you don't need to dock stern-to then I think you have less need for a thruster

True that. When backing into a slip or med-moor, your attention and resources are devoted to placing the stern where it needs to be. A bow thruster makes it much easier to keep the boat aligned as it enters tight quarters with little to no steerage way.

 

[Art]

MOVE TWIN SCREW BOAT SIDEWAYS:

Horizontal/Lateral “Sideways” Movement/Handling of Twin Screw Boat [with no thruster used]

To Move boat sideways to port (opposite settings for starboard):

1. Turn rudder 80% +/- starboard

2. Simultaneously place starboard in forward and port in reverse (once in gear immediately adjust rpm as required - higher equivalent rpm % difference, faster the sideways motion - to a point!)

3. Starting at low rpm… [under 1000] starboard rpm / port approx 1150 rpm – depending on prop size, prop spread and rudder size the rpm difference may need to be a bit higher… practice makes perfect.

Take it slow: Gently move a boat laterally. Be careful to not get boat moving too quickly, as once moving… stopping sideways motion takes considerably more shift, rpm, and rudder-steerage adjustment time than simply presetting things up into needed positions of sideways movement.

Comparatively… For a twin-screw boat: Slow speed forward, reverse or circular rotation motion adjustments are EZ… because rudders can remain pointed straight ahead and the three shift positions as well as rpm variances make it all happen; i.e., steerage wheel [rudder] adjustments are basically not required.

Adjust rudder and shift/throttle controls as needed for current and wind conditions to move latterly away from dock. Practice makes perfect. I recommend repeated practice in a completely open area...

A Note Regarding #’s 1 – 3: It’s all physics baby! My recommendations can be altered/adjusted in several ways. If you notice… to latterly move boat to port I like to use the low rpm forward thrust starboard prop as the submissive retreat-position stabilizer and higher rpm reverse thrust port prop as the dominant gained-position actuator.

YRMV – Visualize in your mind’s eye what is actually happening to the waterflow under the boat while having rudder positions, prop speeds and shift differences actually forcing the boat hull to do as you desire.

Again I say: “It’s All Physics Baby!”

 

[ranger58sb]

Now starting our trawler adventures. 1st mate will have limited ability to help handling lines, etc. I expect to have her at the helm using 2-way radio to work the engines at my 'suggestions' to make the approach.

Considering a boat with no thrusters. Lots more windage on this type of boat of course.

Letting her learn to run the boat -- without your suggestions -- would be best, and learning without thrusters would maybe solidify her education, eventually improve her comfort level.

You can always decide afterwards to add a thruster if you choose...

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

MOVE TWIN SCREW BOAT SIDEWAYS:

Horizontal/Lateral “Sideways” Movement/Handling of Twin Screw Boat [with no thruster used]

To Move boat sideways to port (opposite settings for starboard):

1. Turn rudder 80% +/- starboard

2. Simultaneously place starboard in forward and port in reverse (once in gear immediately adjust rpm as required - higher equivalent rpm % difference, faster the sideways motion - to a point!)

3. Starting at low rpm… [under 1000] starboard rpm / port approx 1150 rpm – depending on prop size, prop spread and rudder size the rpm difference may need to be a bit higher… practice makes perfect.

Take it slow: Gently move a boat laterally. Be careful to not get boat moving too quickly, as once moving… stopping sideways motion takes considerably more shift, rpm, and rudder-steerage adjustment time than simply presetting things up into needed positions of sideways movement.

Comparatively… For a twin-screw boat: Slow speed forward, reverse or circular rotation motion adjustments are EZ… because rudders can remain pointed straight ahead and the three shift positions as well as rpm variances make it all happen; i.e., steerage wheel [rudder] adjustments are basically not required.

Adjust rudder and shift/throttle controls as needed for current and wind conditions to move latterly away from dock. Practice makes perfect. I recommend repeated practice in a completely open area...

A Note Regarding #’s 1 – 3: It’s all physics baby! My recommendations can be altered/adjusted in several ways. If you notice… to latterly move boat to port I like to use the low rpm forward thrust starboard prop as the submissive retreat-position stabilizer and higher rpm reverse thrust port prop as the dominant gained-position actuator.

YRMV – Visualize in your mind’s eye what is actually happening to the waterflow under the boat while having rudder positions, prop speeds and shift differences actually forcing the boat hull to do as you desire.

Again I say: “It’s All Physics Baby!”

That's definitely the right method. However, it doesn't work on all boats, so make sure to try it before you plan on using it.



Any twin with inboard counter-rotation on the props will do it easily, as prop walk is helping you. With outboard rotation, the prop walk is fighting you. And on some boats (like mine) there's enough prop walk that you can't generate enough sideways thrust with one rudder to overcome it and the boat won't move sideways regardless of throttle settings. In my case, I have decent size rudders, but they're fairly low aspect, so they don't extend all the way down to the bottoms of the props, which likely doesn't help.



For spinning in place, if you need to make a full 180, add some rudder on top of having the engines opposed. It'll make for a much faster spin.

 

[Mako]

That's definitely the right method. However, it doesn't work on all boats, so make sure to try it before you plan on using it.

Definitely true. My 65' Burger twin was 100% effective at walking sideways and I never had a need for a thruster for all my single-handed operations. However my friend's Mainship 34 twin could not walk sideways at all. Those tiny rudders just weren't effective.

Perhaps if the OP sees his boat as a long term investment, and if the boat exhibits this ineffectiveness, then he might consider modifying the rudders both in size and with the addition of a fish-tail.

 

[Xlantic]

My boat will also move sideways using the technique described by Art but I need to go over 1600 RPM to get going.

But, sometimes one needs to move just bow sideways, not the stern or the whole boat. That's when the bow thruster helps.

 

[Fish53]

Pretty hard not knowing you to tell what you can and can't do. A five foot freeboard should be no impediment to the use of springlines, which regardless of how many engines and thrusters you have is in my opinion a basic seamanship skill. I've operated and landed some fairly large boats singlehanded, and still do. The key here is obtaining a few fundamental skills and put in a reasonable amount of practice, especially on days with some wind.

 

[soin2la]

...the use of springlines, which regardless of how many engines and thrusters you have is in my opinion a basic seamanship skill

Before stern thrusters, a well placed after bow spring did the trick. Still does.

 

[Fish53]

Before stern thrusters, a well placed after bow spring did the trick. Still does.

Same thing with a doubled backing spring to leave the dock, no fuss, no yelling and no jumping around. Thanks.

 

[brianaderer]

I single hand an 83' boat with no thruster and usually with no deck hand.

Do you offer lessons?

 

[omoore]

+My wife and I ran our 58' Hat MY alone without problems. Twin engines give you great maneuverability. Go practice sharp turns using a mooring ball as a target. Thanks to a trawler's deep keel wind won't push you sidewise like it will a SF, for example.
I have been aboard a lot of boats with undersized thrusters running on battery power that could not overcome wind or current.

The key thing to learn is how to use spring lines and hopefully well positioned pilings. A single aft spring line will bring you to the dock, for instance. Practice using spring-lines as well.
If you have a rub rail, great. The Hat didn't. Don't come in hot. Use the spring line to come alongside.
My first docking with the Hat was in a double slip with floating docks, no piling along the dock or separating me from the 85' Broward already docked. I bought a lot of big Taylor made Fenders (guaranteed for life) and hung them of both sides of the Hat. Fear of hitting the thin aluminum hull had me favoring the dock. I popped a number of those fenders before I became confident enough to stop worrying and not favor the dock.

Also remember that the greater displacement of the trawler means you won't be able to fend off with your hands. Momentum equals mass times velocity.
Enjoy the trawler life.

 

[IntoTheBlue]

The answer to your question is that you are not crazy. And since you have boating experience you'll figure it out. As stated a few times, practice out in open water. Go slow.

That being said, thrusters are nice thing to have, especially on larger vessels. When I used to deliver sailboats, I always liked having a bow thruster for assistance in backing into a slip. My first trawler was a single engine and again a bow thruster was useful in backing in, especially with cross current and/or wind.

Yet, my current boat has twins, like your new boat. Honestly I very rarely use the bow thruster to dock. I do use it to come off of a bulkhead, but most of all use it to move the bow over to help my mate (wife) put a line on a pole or a dock. If you plan to do inland waterway boating, a thruster is also helpful in a lock.

So again, your single handed, then a thruster is helpful. Not essential.

Enjoy your new boat!!

 

[Bacchus]

Before stern thrusters, a well placed after bow spring did the trick. Still does.

Before engines sails provided boat propulsion. They still do... doesn't mean anything that "has been around for ages" is the best option today!
Everyone gets to choose how THEY do it!

 

[sunchaser]

Before engines sails provided boat propulsion. They still do... doesn't mean anything that "has been around for ages" is the best option today!
Everyone gets to choose how THEY do it!

Which reminds me - I well recall when learning to sail in the 1950s when the debate was why an auxiliary engine. I had it drilled into me as to how to pick up a mooring while under sail in larger vessels. We snubbed our noses at those with Atomic 4s.

 

[carpedatum]

Our current boat (not quite so big but 42' with plenty of windage) didn't come with thrusters. The former owners got along fine without them. The Admiral and I had never owned a twin-screw inboard monohull before, but I figured we'd learn.

Of course, for various reasons, she has to be backed into a particularly tight slip in a fairly strong unfavorable prevailing wind. The POs, we learned, had a long history of entertaining our neighbors with this. Our nearest neighbor, when we met him, was fond of standing watch on his stern, boat hook in hand, ready to fend off whenever they came in. He keeps his fenders out, on the side opposite his dock finger, for the same reason.

Our training instructor had a lot of great advice for us after our first trip out. Marriage savers was high on that list - we'd never had headsets before and were really pleased with their anxiety-reduction properties.

That, I think, is where I stand on thrusters for larger pleasure craft of this type. We used to yell. Yelling got us docked. Now we speak, and wind up in the same place, but that first drink after doesn't need to be a double. Thrusters have much the same effect.

Thrusters were not on our instructor's list but I made them a consideration after pondering my path forward. Not because they are necessary. I would eventually learn how to dock backwards in a breeze without them, and I'd get better at it over time. However, they remind me a lot of the marriage-savers. They took a lot of anxiety out of the equation for a modestly-experienced crew, and made it easier to become a more experienced crew. Our neighbors' fear has turned to compliments. Everybody is less nervous, including me.

Selecting them and fitting them was hard, but sorta fun and now that it is behind us, I wouldn't have things any other way.

 

[Ralsy]

I'm with RGANO in thumbs-up to this post. Have at least a bow thruster installed, hydraulic is strongly preferred. Thrusters are relatively affordable and some of the installation cost will be recovered at resale. I promise you will get more use out of your boat if you have thruster(s). There will be at least a few days per year that you will have reduced concern about afternoon winds and therefore will head-out instead of cancel plans. With the exception of over-confidence if a thruster dies, there is no scenario where having a thruster hinders a safe landing - it can only assist. Given the affordable cost of install and the high cost of fiberglass repairs, why wouldn't you install one?

I do not know a professional captain who declines to use a thruster if equipped. They may have a better Plan B if the thruster dies, but they will use every tool available to bring the boat in safely. Chest-thumping ego is checked at the dock.

Peter

Well said and I totally agree.

 

[Ralsy]

I guess thrusters really get appreciated when you have a single screw boat.

 

[Lepke]

Do you offer lessons?

I can, if you're nearby. I've taught many.

Something that helped me learn when I was young, were some books on boat and ship handling. They had lots of examples with various wind and current conditions. The best was Naval Ship handling, mostly about destroyers that handle similar to twin screw yachts, but without the horsepower. An old copy can be found on ebay.

 

[Lepke]

Before stern thrusters, a well placed after bow spring did the trick. Still does.

Spring is usually my 1st line over.

 

[Simi 60]

We (2) run a single screw 60fter with no thruster
Full time cruiser with big tankage so rarely need to come into a berth for water or fuel
When we do we pick our times but never had any issues.

I would not like to have to berth her as a regular thing, but she was not designed to be tied up - she was made for cruising.

Now have watermaker and a bunker service for fuel in our area so need to come in is pretty much zero.

 

[Art]

Look real close... on the gunnel, there are two substantial sized cleats.

One is 11' from bow, the other is 13' from the stern; with 11' between them. We use these cleats in many ways and often. Either can be used for different leverages as spring lines. Same cleat set up is on starboard.

 

[Blissboat]

I can, if you're nearby. I've taught many.

Something that helped me learn when I was young, were some books on boat and ship handling. They had lots of examples with various wind and current conditions. The best was Naval Ship handling, mostly about destroyers that handle similar to twin screw yachts, but without the horsepower. An old copy can be found on ebay.

Second that recommendation. In his Forward to Naval Shiphandling, Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz conceded that "skill in shiphandling cannot be acquired from books alone," but concluded that the book, published in four editions by the Naval Institute Press, "cannot fail to benefit all seamen everywhere."

Since then, the NIP has come out with Naval Shiphandler's Guide, by Capt. James Alden Barber, USN (Ret.), It's chattier than Naval Shiphandling, and of course reflects the evolution of the fleet since the Cold War era. One constant seems to be that naval shiphandlers learn to make good use of ground tackle in maneuvering to land, as well as to make a departure in adverse conditions - mainly in ports where a tug is unavailable (as they are for we yachtsmen).

As Lepke said, they are available used, but I found both titles worth paying full price via the Naval Institute Press.

 

[Mako]

Now have watermaker and a bunker service for fuel in our area so need to come in is pretty much zero.

Wow Simi, that's new. So when did you install the WM and what made you finally decide? As I recall you were quite independent with rainwater catchment and the dinghy portable tank.

 

[Simi 60]

Wow Simi, that's new. So when did you install the WM and what made you finally decide? As I recall you were quite independent with rainwater catchment and the dinghy portable tank.

I installed it a couple of weeks ago.
Had a near new 150lph model pop up at a price point I couldn't refuse.

Vessel it came out of is now owned by another watermaker brand reseller so he was installing "his" brand as a demo when off cruising and wanted a quick sale to negate his costs.

Right place, right time.

Toying with the idea of making the 2500 litre plastic water tanks aft into diesel tanks and bringing online some smaller "ballast" tanks as water tanks

That would extend our range out to 5000nm @ 7.5 knots

Way down my list of priorities at this stage

 

[cks]

We do not have bow or stern thrusters on our Grand Banks Europa.
But we find most helpful is to discuss how we are going to dock the boat when approaching a new location. My wife and I will spend real time discussing the approaches and how we’re going to dock the boat. I find the preparation takes longer than the actual docking of the boat.
Another thing that helped us considerably is having bow, stern and spring lines along with fenders at the ready on both port and starboard sides at all times.
We’ve had situations where conditions change quickly. For example, the need to change from a port to starboard tie. Having all lines and fenders at the ready made the change-up much easier and with less drama.

 

[Blissboat]

[W]e find most helpful is to discuss how we are going to dock the boat when approaching a new location. My wife and I will spend real time discussing the approaches and how we’re going to dock the boat. I find the preparation takes longer than the actual docking of the boat.
Another thing that helped us considerably is having bow, stern and spring lines along with fenders at the ready on both port and starboard sides at all times.
We’ve had situations where conditions change quickly. For example, the need to change from a port to starboard tie. Having all lines and fenders at the ready made the change-up much easier and with less drama.

Amen and amen!

 

[bowball]

I say go for the thrusters.

When people talk about spring lines, the dock needs a cleat. Here in BC, many/most of the docks have bull rails and you aren’t going to put a spring line on that, at least I can’t until I’m where I want to be.