A new and excellent post on underloading

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
18,745
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Willy
Vessel Make
Willard Nomad 30'
This post from BoatDesign.net is very recent and sums up a lot of the mysteries of underloading damage or potential damage. It dos'nt address the whole issue from where we stand as operators of old trawler yachts but will tend to enlighten all that read it.*
<table class="tborder" style="background-color:#d1d1e1;color:#000066;width:100%;border-width:1px;border-color:#0b198c;border-style:solid;" border="0" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="6" align="center"><tbody><tr><td class="alt1" style="font:normal normal normal 10pt/normal verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;background-color:#e4e4e4;color:#000066;">From a diesel generator technical manual


"Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - namely internal glazing and carbon buildup. This is a common problem in generator sets caused by failure to follow application and operating guidelines - ideally diesel engines should run at least around 60-75% of their maximum rated load. Short periods of low load running are permissible providing the set is brought up to full load, or close to full load on a regular basis.

Internal glazing and carbon buildup is due to prolonged periods of running at low speeds and/or low loads. Such conditions may occur when an engine is left idling as a 'standby' generating unit, ready to run up when needed, (misuse); if the engine powering the set is over-powered (misapplication) for the load applied to it, causing the diesel unit to be under-loaded, or as is very often the case, when sets are started and run off load as a test (misuse).

Running an engine under low loads causes low cylinder pressures and consequent poor piston ring sealing since this relies on the gas pressure to force them against the oil film on the bores to form the seal. Low cylinder pressures causes poor combustion and resultant low combustion pressures and temperatures.

This poor combustion leads to soot formation and unburnt fuel residues which clogs and gums piston rings. This causes a further drop in sealing efficiency and exacerbates the initial low pressure. Glazing occurs when hot combustion gases blow past the now poorly sealing piston rings, causing the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls to 'flash burn', creating an enamel-like glaze, which smooths the bore and removes the effect of the intricate pattern of honing marks machined into the bore surface. which are there to hold oil and return it to the crankcase via the scraper ring.

Hard carbon also forms from poor combustion and this is highly abrasive and scrapes the honing marks on the bores leading to bore polishing, which then leads to increased oil consumption (blue smoking) and yet further loss of pressure, since the oil film trapped in the honing marks is intended to maintain the piston seal and pressures. Un-burnt fuel leaks past the piston rings and contaminates the lubricating oil. Poor combustion causes the injectors to become clogged with soot, causing further deterioration in combustion and black smoking.

The problem is increased further the formation of acids in the engine oil caused by condensed water and combustion by-products which would normally boil off at higher temperatures. This acidic build-up in the lubricating oil causes slow but ultimately damaging wear to bearing surfaces.

This cycle of degradation means that the engine soon becomes irreversibly damaged and may not start at all and will no longer be able to reach full power when required. Under loaded running inevitably causes not only white smoke from unburnt fuel but over time is joined by the blue smoke of burnt lubricating oil leaking past the damaged piston rings, and the black smoke caused by the damaged injectors. This pollution is unacceptable to the authorities and any neighbours.

Once glazing or carbon build up has occurred, it can only be cured by stripping down the engine and re-boring the cylinder bores, machining new honing marks and stripping, cleaning and de-coking combustion chambers, fuel injector nozzles and valves. If detected in the early stages, running an engine at maximum load to raise the internal pressures and temperatures, allows the piston rings to scrape glaze off the bores and allow carbon buildup to be burnt off. However, if glazing has progressed to the stage where the piston rings have seized into their grooves this will not have any effect.

The situation can be prevented by carefully selecting the generator set in accordance with manufacturers printed guidelines.

For emergency only sets, which are islanded, the emergency load is often only about 1/4 of the sets standby rating, this apparent over size being necessitated to be able to meet starting loads and minimizing starting voltage drop. Hence, the available load is not usually enough for load testing and again engine damage will result if this is used as the weekly or monthly load test. This situation can be dealt with by hiring in a load bank for regular testing, or installing a permanent load bank. Both these options cost money in terms of engine wear and fuel use but are better than the alternative of under loading the engine.
</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
How does this translate?

At max throttle at 2400 RPM, fuel,consumption is 4.5 GPH for my particular engine (JD 4045D).* At two-thirds power, does that translate to 3 GPH, or about 2150 RPM?


-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 24th of October 2011 06:50:51 AM
 
Measuring fuel flow is a viable method of estimating diesel loading.
 
I wonder how common noticable damage from idleing or underloading diesel engines is, and at how many hours has it occurred? I have never heard of one damaged by it although they may be out there. Are any statistics available?
Steve W.
 
Steve wrote:
I wonder how common noticable damage from idleing or underloading diesel engines is, and at how many hours has it occurred? I have never heard of one damaged by it although they may be out there. Are any statistics available?
Steve W.
*If you read boatdiesel.com Tony A will say that he has never seen one damaged that way. Only by overloading.
 
jleonard wrote:Steve wrote:
I wonder how common noticable damage from idleing or underloading diesel engines is, and at how many hours has it occurred? I have never heard of one damaged by it although they may be out there. Are any statistics available?
Steve W.
*If you read boatdiesel.com Tony A will say that he has never seen one damaged that way. Only by overloading.

*Somewhat agree..... I have read several sources that say once a diesel is broken in...the chances of damage from underloading are slim...especially with main engines because they operate all over their rpm range sooner or later...

I can understand a severely underloaded genset having a "somewhat" premature death...but most do anyhow from TOTAL underuse...not necessarily underloading.
 
Posting this comment on underloading I was not stating or implying that your engines were going to die from underloading. Seen enough evidence to the contrary. At this point I'd even buy a 32 Nordic Tug w 220 Cumins and drive it around mostly at 7 knots. This thread was intended as basically for your information only. So many seem so vague about what actually happened when underloading damage did occur I thought this post would make the mystery much more clear.*

Mark, 2/3 load at 3gph yes. 2150 rpm *....have no idea. 2/3rds load is wherever you burn 3 gph. Probably is about 2150 now that I think of it and I think you do have a flow scan and if accurate it should confirm that. And I'd say that's about perfect loading for your regular cruising most of the time.*


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 24th of October 2011 03:23:31 PM
 
Good post Eric.

I've seen this happen on a yacht with no genset and the main was used to charge the batteries every day. When it finally departed the anchorage, it was accompanied by clouds of blue smoke -*definitely an oil burner with glazed bores.

However, on its return a few days later the exhaust was absolutely clean. The owner reckoned it cleaned up after about six hours continuous running. Maybe you can deglaze by putting a load on - or maybe he was just lucky?
 
nomadwilly wrote:

Mark, 2/3 load at 3gph yes. 2150 rpm *....have no idea. 2/3rds load is wherever you burn 3 gph. Probably is about 2150 now that I think of it and I think you do have a flow scan and if accurate it should confirm that. And I'd say that's about perfect loading for your regular cruising most of the time.*
*But Eric, I can about double my range at 1600 RPM consuming 1.5 GPH at*one-third power.* Here's hoping that won't cause damage.* Perhaps it would be good to have occasional brief (15-minute) periods of two-thirds power?
 

Attachments

  • img_0991.jpg
    img_0991.jpg
    77.3 KB · Views: 103
Yes, diesel generators are frequently damaged by continuous underloading. We see it all the time on larger yachts which quite often have generators installed that are 30 to 50 percent larger than required. The phenomenon is a fact, it is not myth or superstition or a mystery. If someone has never seen one damaged (greatly accelerated wear and failure to make power or pick up the load) it is because they have never spent much time around generators that run nearly constantly.

Don't make the mistake of confusing generator underloading with propulsion engine "underloading" as these are two completely separate issues.

A generator operates at a constant maximum rated speed which depends on the synchronous frequency. The engine turns at that speed regardless if it has zero load or 110 percent load. This produces a different set of mechanical and combustion related issues than relate to a propulsion engine.

A propulsion engine produces low output because it is connected to a propeller that absorbs little power at low rpm. It is a separate issue.
 
RickB wrote:
Don't make the mistake of confusing generator underloading with propulsion engine "underloading" as these are two completely separate issues.
..
A propulsion engine produces low output because it is connected to a propeller that absorbs little power at low rpm. It is a separate issue.
*RickB, please don't leave us "hanging."* What is the preferred loading for a propulsion engine?
 
markpierce wrote:*What is the preferred loading for a propulsion engine?
*Any point within its rated power envelope. It is illustrated on the power graph supplied by the manufacturer.

If it is sold by the manufacturer as a marine engine and is* installed in a boat with a fixed pitch propeller, it is shown by the propeller curve.

*

RTFM
 
RickB wrote:
*Any point within its rated power envelope. It is illustrated on the power graph supplied by the manufacturer.

If it is sold by the manufacturer as a marine engine and is* installed in a boat with a fixed pitch propeller, it is shown by the propeller curve.
*OK!* So for the JD 4045D, that's 1000 RPM and above, compared to its idling speed of 750.
 
A propulsion engine produces low output because it is connected to a propeller that absorbs little power at low rpm. It is a separate issue.

With a CPP , or a knowledgable owner with a "Cruising prop" there is no problem.

The big problem is "fast trawlers" or semi plaining boats that putter at 6K most of the time , barely hi idle.

While the problem can exist on a displacement boat , in most cases it would never be noticed.

An engine that might go 10,000 hours on a properly loaded gen set might get 3000 underloaded.

at 100 to 200 hours a year for most recreational power boats , 10,000/200 is a lot of years.

Most will be dead from poor maint before then.

The other big help is the usual built slow boat will not have a HD* industrial diesel, usually a taxicab or agricultural "marinization" that is happy to suffer low loading as its mfg HP rating is very optomistic.

*


-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 25th of October 2011 04:14:28 AM
 
"... barely hi idle."

High idle is the rpm it reaches at full throttle with no load. It is (hopefully) the highest rpm you will ever see the engine produce.
 
Mark wrote;
<table class="forumline borderline" style="font-size:12px;background-color:#0053a2;border-collapse:collapse;margin-bottom:10px;width:100%;border-width:1px;border-color:#0053a2;border-style:solid;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr class="tr tr-odd"><td class="row1 borderline comment-content" style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:#eff2f9;border-width:1px;border-color:#0053a2;border-style:solid;padding:4px;" valign="top"><table style="font-size:12px;width:1125px;padding:0px;margin:0px;"><tbody><tr><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:1121px;" colspan="2">
*"But Eric, I can about double my range at 1600 RPM"

Where are you going Mark?

</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
 
nomadwilly wrote:*

*
<table class="forumline borderline" style="background-color:#0053a2;width:100%;border-collapse:collapse;margin-bottom:10px;font-size:12px;border:#0053a2 1px solid;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr class="tr tr-odd"><td class="row1 borderline comment-content" style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:#eff2f9;border-width:1px;border-color:#0053a2;border-style:solid;padding:4px;" valign="top"><table style="margin:0px;width:1125px;font-size:12px;padding:0px;"><tbody><tr><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:1121px;" colspan="2">
*

Where are you going Mark?

</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
*Same question my GF*asked nine*years ago when I got a passport.* (She already had one.)* After 20+ countries, I'll need to renew next year.


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 25th of October 2011 12:59:28 PM
 

Attachments

  • flag of convenience.jpg
    flag of convenience.jpg
    82.4 KB · Views: 104
Going to Portugal?
Steve W.
 
Steve wrote:
Going to Portugal?
Steve W.
*Just got back earlier this month.* Visited both Lisbon and the Azores again, just like last November.
 

Attachments

  • lisbon bridge.jpg
    lisbon bridge.jpg
    94.5 KB · Views: 127
Idling in gear all day could be called "underloading." As long as the engine is operated within its rated power envelope and reaches operating temperature it should be happy. Recreational boat engines, generators included, just don't run enough in their lives to suffer from the underloading boogeyman.

Read the horror stories, they die from flooding a cylinder through the exhaust by overcranking or some other failure, they suffer from bad injection caused by rust and dirty fuel, they croak when a heat exchange rots out and fills the crankcase with seawater or coolant, they overheat from overloading related to dirty props and bottoms, pump failures or leaking hoses, but they rarely ever just wear out prematurely because they spent too much time at low power.
 
It's not a great idea because you are putting a lot of water and combustion products in the oil to create acids that will damage the bearings. You won't get the engine hot enough to dry out the oil.

You would do better to seal up the crankcase vent, air inlet, and exhaust before the engine cools when you park it and leave it alone until you plan to use it. You can bar it over once in a while if you want to change the position of the rings in the cylinders, that won't hurt anything.
 
superdiver wrote:
So an hour or two of idling does no real harm? Often I just go down in the winter if I havent run the engines for a week or so and just run it in idle to warm up the boat and help keep it dry
I don't think the way you're doing it is particulary good for the engines.* We do the same thing--- run the engines if my schedule and the winds keep us from talking the boat out for four weeks in a row.* But we don't just let the engines idle.* We put them in gear and run them up to about 1300 rpm after a normal warm-up period at idle.*This puts a load on the engines and gets them up to the proper cylinder temperatures for complete combustion.* Once they are at temperature--- which takes about 15 minutes at 1300 rpm*after initial warm up--- we run them for another 20 minutes, still in gear,*and then shut them down.

We used to do this with one transmission*in forward and one in reverse to minimize the load on the dock cleats.* But after reading that the BW Velvet Drive transmission is not as strong in reverse as it is in forward we now do one engine at a time in forward.* Both engines together would put quite a strain on the lines and cleats.*
 
Here is a excerpt from my operating log:

Cruising:* Find a smooth spot anywhere between 1500-2000 rpm.* Ideally, the coolant temperature should be no less than 180E F when cruising, the hotter the engine runs, the less carbon and varnish that will form at the injectors and valves, and the less the engine will smoke at idle.* If 15-1600 rpm for a long run is desired, consider initially running the engine at 1800 rpm for 10 minutes or so to get cylinder temps up first. [The engine typically does not load up after a long run at 1600 rpm, but may smoke a little the next time you start it.* Cummins advises that:ALight load operation (less than 30% load) for extended periods (more than 8 hours) should be followed, whenever possible, by at least 30 minutes of high-power operation to burn off fuel residue and reduce the chance of developing long-term engine problems. This high-power operation should be conducted at a minimum of 50% of prime power.@* While this guideline is meant to address lightly loaded fixed-speed engines (such as generators), Tony Athens (Boat Diesel moderator and Cummins mechanic) recommends that operation of variable speed propulsion engines be held to a similar standard, depending on application/installation.] *Based on experience with this engine in this application and typical usage at 1500-1800 rpm (15-26% load), the engine should be operated at 2200 rpm (52% load) for 30 minutes every 25 hours of engine operation.

This scenario has been in place for a number of years, and engine performance has been very good.

*
 
Regarding operating equipment in the off-season, if I can't take the boat out and run everything for a couple of hours every 3-4 weeks, the boat will sit, although I will try to operate non-engine systems every 30 days.

Only twice in the past 14 years has the boat been laid up for 3-4 months in a row, and the engine is*then pre-lubed*prior to starting.
 
Marin wrote:We used to do this with one transmission*in forward and one in reverse to minimize the load on the dock cleats.* But after reading that the BW Velvet Drive transmission is not as strong in reverse as it is in forward we now do one engine at a time in forward.* Both engines together would put quite a strain on the lines and cleats.*
*I can't speak for your boat manufacture or the model of Velvet Drive you have, but as an example most Californians, since the 1970's have Borg Warner Velvet Drives and don't use counter rotating engines, one transmission runs in reverse and one in forward. *Unless you have one counter rotating engine, one transmission is always running in reverse, when going ahead, otherwise you wont have counter rotating propellers.*
*
You might want to note your Velvet Drive model and serial number and check that information with a reputable marine transmission shop.
 
Both engines together would put quite a strain on the lines and cleats.

And might wash out the existing pilings at a high rate. One engine will wash out the bottom a bit slower.

It also will deepen the water under the props , so can only be used where the bottom wash will not shallow a channel
, or slips in the area.
 
superdiver wrote:
So an hour or two of idling does no real harm? Often I just go down in the winter if I havent run the engines for a week or so and just run it in idle to warm up the boat and help keep it dry (I have no power at my marina so I cant run a heater all the time). Is this doing harm to the engines?
*I don't think this is a good idea either.*

From personal experience the PO did this for about 2 years without bringing the engines up to normal operating temps. When I purchased the boat the PO ended up having to replace the injector pump timing gear, fuel cooler, S/O solenoid, and several other items I've since forgotten. I can't say any of this was due to his mis-conception that simply starting the engines once a month for 15 minutes or so was sufficient. However I've read from enough sources and from Tony on boatdiesel.com that the proper way to maintain your unused boat is to bring the engines up to operating temps and that will probably be more than letting them idle for 15 minutes. Operating temp for my engines is 180 deg, but they will only achieve 140 if left to idle for a half hour or so.*

I cruise single engine frequently with the operating engine at 1200 rpm. Once the temps get to 180 they seem to stay there even if left at the lower rpm's. I do however run the engines up to cruise rpm (2200) for 10 minutes at the end of the day if I've been cruising at lower rpms for any length of time.*

You mentioned that Tony has never seen a diesel engine destroyed by underloading but overloading is a real killer. I've taken an 1" out of my props because I heeded that advise.

I hope I'm doin the right thing, I'm no mehanical engineer, but I think I'm relying on the advise of those who are. *


-- Edited by timjet on Thursday 27th of October 2011 10:12:48 AM
 
Edelweiss wrote:Unless you have one counter rotating engine, one transmission is always running in reverse, when going ahead, otherwise you wont have counter rotating propellers.*
There is no such thing as a counter-rotating Ford Lehman 120 (at least I've never heard of one).* All FL120s turn counter-clockwise when viewed from the rear.

We have counter-rotating propellers on our boat as*do all twin-engine Grand Banks,*but both our Velvet Drives run in forward when the boat goes forward and they both turn the same direction, counter-clockwise just like the engines.* The opposite (clockwise when viewed from the rear)*rotation of the starboard output shaft is achieved by an additional gear in the*output drive of the starboard transmission.* This is why the gear ratio between a "counter-clockwise" Velvet Drive is slightly different from the gear ratio of a "clockwise" Velvet Drive.* The ratios are 2.1 to 1 (port, counter-clockwise turning output shaft), and 1.91 to 1 (starboard, clockwise turning output shaft).* The 1.91 to 1 transmission is the one with the additional gear.

(As a point of interest, single engine GBs from the Velvet Drive era use the 2.1 to 1 version of the transmission, the one without the additional gear.)

I have never heard of a Velvet Drive actually being run in reverse to achieve opposite rotation from the engine, but some may do this I suppose.* All the "counter-rotating" Velvet Drives I've heard about in other boats and on the Grand Banks owners forum have the additional gear in the output drive.* Regardless of which way the output shaft turns, the main part of the transmission always turns the same way as the engine and the transmissions are always in forward (when the boat goes forward).

The Velvet Drives I'm familiar with have more drive plates for forward than reverse.* In fact, I think there's only one for reverse, but I could be mistaken.* This is why I've been cautioned not to run our transmissions hard in reverse.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 27th of October 2011 09:26:32 PM
 
Steve wrote:
I wonder how common noticable damage from idleing or underloading diesel engines is, and at how many hours has it occurred? I have never heard of one damaged by it although they may be out there. Are any statistics available?
Steve W.
*

I think you will find that idling a diesel for extended periods really isn't too much of an issue. *Underloading isn't that much of an issue either.

My 2007 Cummins ISM that is in a semi-tractor has 425,000 miles on it, and of the 13,000 + hours on it...probably 3000 hours are at idle speed with or without a PTO engaged. * *

I think too many people worry too much about too much when all they should worry about is that the engine is running well and efficiently.

*
 
Being an old truck driver I can attest to the fact that there is a lot of time on truck engines that are underloaded or even at idle but on the road there are hills most everywhere, stoplights, stop signs, slow drivers, turns and curves that slow the truck down or stop it. Once stopped the truck engine gets to go through 10 gears or so *to get the truck back up to speed * ....pedal to the metal in all gears. And even in Kansas running down the straight and almost flat road the truck will probably work harder that a typical trawler. Just rolling 18 really big tires and wheels take quite a bit of power. Truck engines work hard even though they have lots of low load and idle time. So the idea that trucks are underloading is just incorrect. So I agree w JAT. As long as the engine dos'nt idle (or nearly so) there should'nt be much to worry about. But still I think it's better for a diesel to work fairly hard.
 
Back
Top Bottom