A wood hull for three years?

[Capt-Dave]

My wife & I are finally empty nesters and are looking into cruising the great loop.* I am currently considering trawlers that would be both affordable and economical enough to fit our budget.* A trawler that seems to fit our needs might be a Grand Banks 32.* As everyone knows the wooden hull Grand Banks are much cheaper to acquire than a glass hull.* Assuming I would use the trawler for three years, do the loop and then place the boat back on the market would it really matter which version (wood or glass) I purchased?* I have owned many boats in the past (all glass), I know the value in getting a good survey, I also know that a cheap boat is not always the best value.*

I guess my question is: *Assuming all things equal is there a good reason I should or should not consider a wooden hull trawler for doing the great loop.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
-Capt Dave-

 

[JohnP]

Capt-Dave wrote**
**Assuming all things equal is there a good reason I should or should not consider a wooden hull trawler for doing the great loop.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
-Capt Dave-

********* Dave,* There is no reason why a good wood hull could not do the Loop.

********* I was considering a GB32 woodie before I bought my Island Gypsy 32 (glass hull). The IG32 is a simular boat and shares some design and build features of the GB.* I am glad I have the glass boat now as there is enough wood on my boat to maintain.*

**********However the wood GB32 should be a great boat for the trip.

**********Good Luck, I would not buy a woodie to save money. All trawlers can have issues and the hull is only a fraction of the whole picture.

JohnP

 

[Arctic Traveller]

Capt-Dave wrote:
*

I guess my question is: *Assuming all things equal is there a good reason I should or should not consider a wooden hull trawler for doing the great loop.***

*

I love wood boats (other peoples) I also have a great fear of them, or more directly, the cost of maintenance.* Good wood for repairs is very hard to find, and when you do, it's obscenely expensive.* Most of the wood used for repairs these days last's less than half as long as the older, denser wood of yesterday.* I've owned two wood boats, and the second one was in pretty good shape when I bought it, but it was alarming how fast it went downhill.* I couldn't afford to fix it correctly, and ended up selling at a loss (not unexpected though)* Another issue is availability of insurance.* Many insurance companies are afraid of wood boats these days. Having said that, if a wood boat was all I could afford, I'd find the best one I could, enjoy the hell out of my trip, and expect to take some kind of loss at the end........Arctic Traveller

*

 

[FF]

Wood will be cheap to purchase and almost impossible to sell.

Plan on 100% loss as use cost.

 

[JohnP]

I do agree a wood boat will be very hard to sell after your trip.

When I was close to pulling the trigger on a wood GB, I called Boat U.S. for an insurance quote. After some discussion about my prior experience with owning wood boats, they did the quote.* It was less than my Island Gypsy and the boat was a 1969!

JohnP

 

[Woodsong]

FF wrote:
Wood will be cheap to purchase and almost impossible to sell.

Plan on 100% loss as use cost.

*

*That right there pretty well sums up the cold hard truth of wooden boats! *The pool of buyers willing to consider a woodie is very, very small. *

 

[dwhatty]

We bought a wood boat in 1987 (she was built in 1939) and sold her 1 1/2 years ago for $12k more than we paid for her (not counting maintenance and upgrades). It took a year to sell her but, in this market, we thought that that was pretty good. It all depends on the particular boat and the location of the market. Maine (New England) has a fairly active wooden boat market and the yards/people with the skills to maintain and repair them.

 

[yachtbrokerguy]

It is better to be cruising on an old woodie than standing on the dock watching the Nordhavns going by.

Yes FF is right selling is very difficult, and as JohnP says getting insurrance may be difficult. I have found that insurance is available for older boats but the owners experience with boats is critical, they usually want you to know what you are doing. If you can buy it cheap enough you might go with limited insurance for liability only, and that might be OK for use on local waters but the Loop is a long way around.
The biggest problem in my opinion is the money spent on other parts of the boat, do you have any chance of getting it back? If you repower an older glass boat you should increaee the value, not as much as you put in but there is a return of use and a return at resale. It is the other stuff like water heaters, air conditioners all the things that need work on any older boat that will cost money with little chance of return.

 

[Tidahapah]

Gee it looks like I am glad I live in Australia where wood (timber planked) boats bring a premium price and are no more expensive or trouble to insure than
a glass boat.
If the hull comes out good after a competent survey it sure would be a good way to go.

Benn

 

[JohnP]

Capt Dave? Have you came to any conclusions from our postings? Do you have experience with maintaining wood boats?* Do you plan on cruising the loop for 3years or will you be keeping the boat somewhere before the trip?

Just wondering?* JohnP


-- Edited by JohnP on Tuesday 29th of March 2011 04:35:04 PM

 

[Capt-Dave]

Thank you for your posts. The input I have received here is exactly what I was hoping for.

Here's a little about myself: I am a sailor. All my previous boats (6 of them) have all been sailboat, four glass and two of them wooden hulls. However it's been 20 years since I've owned a wooden hulled sailboat. I do not have recent experience with the maintenance of a wood planked hull. I do have recent experience with the building of a wooden boat. I am currently building a small pocket cruiser but the boat is epoxy (stitch & glue) and not a planked hull.

(Here's my project: http://www.BuildingReunion.com).

I am fully retired from the space industry (international space station project) and at age 57 do not plan on returning to the workforce. I enjoy sailing my current sailboat (a Montgomery pocket cruiser) on the Galveston Bay. I have long had an interest in the Great Loop. If I were single and planned to go it alone around the loop I might give it a go aboard a pocket cruiser but that's a bit too close to camping for my wife.

My wife and I are still in the learning phases of doing the loop, but we both agree that a trawler would be the best bet for a long term trip such as this. As for the boat; I would purchase the trawler just for the trip with plans to market it upon returning to Galveston Bay. The reason I mentioned 3 years is that seems to be the longest it might take to make the go around. I can't say we'd be aboard that long.

Here is what I have learned from your posts. I pretty much realized that a wood hull might be hard to unload after the long trip and that it would not be an investment but rather the cost of doing business. I had not thought about the cost of insurance and plan to make a few calls to see if there would be a problem there. I'm not against going the loop self-insured and just carrying liability insurance either. Especially on a boat I don't expect to re-coop much more than a percentage of my original investment. I do not have a particular wooden boat in mind and ask the questions only because of my initial surprise at the price difference between wood and glass. I also realize that the hull is only one part of the purchase and there are a lot of other factors that need to go into the equation.

Once again; THANKS for all the input.
-Capt Dave-

 

[JMYSS]

I recentley sold a 1968 36' Grand Banks woodie.(December)*Most would have considered her to be in immaculate condition when seen at the docks. I showed it often and often heard "if it was fiberglass I would write an offer right now"*After 4 years on the market, we found a buyer who hired a very competant wood boat surveyor. He did a great job, such a great job, it was almost un-insurable, and the boat was in good shape and solid in the surveyors owner words. It was the systems, IE fuel tanks, bonding straps, electrical, etc that we had to jump through hoops after the sale to correct to get straight. Funny thing was, the boat had been insured by Boat US for 10 years under the previous owner without a updated survey required. When the new owner applied through them, they acted like they had never insured the boat and ran him through the ringer. Finally after three months, tens of thousands of dollars spent on repairs/upgrades, and having to pay the surveyor to come back twice to make sure thing met their standards, he found another company who specializes in antiique vehicles and insured it on the spot. If you need the company name I can probably dig it up.

*

IN short, I think wood boats are a nice ride and very nice when in good shape. If it is very old and you do not have endless pockets, plan on either owning it forever, scrapping it out, or making a club house out of it for grand kids when you are done. In my experience, the percentage of boat buyers looking for wooden boats is at best 1% of the general boat buying population, and that is being very kind. As compared the percentage of the general public that even wants to buy a boat right now and also has the means to, that 1% might as well have a decimal and several zeros in front of it, at least in our area.

 

[FF]

"but we both agree that a trawler would be the best bet for a long term trip such as this. As for the boat; I would purchase the trawler just for the trip with plans to market it upon returning to Galveston Bay

With sail experience , you have by now learned that a great cruiser does not need to echo inside..

Might not help the strutting the dock , but the loop can happily be done with a 25 ft Bayliner.

There is really no need for anything bigger , IF you can be happy with the interior volume."

I have seen many smaller Bayliner for well under $5K.

That is a sum that could be walked away from , tho Bayliners (and other similar small gas boats) are quite popular , so a sale afterward should not be very hard.

The shallow draft and usually outdrive will allow far more off route than the usual 4 -5 ft draft of a TT.

 

[JohnP]

FF wrote:

Might not help the strutting the dock , but the loop can happily be done with a 25 ft Bayliner.

FF, You very well may have some of the best suggestions about doing the loop on a budget.*I wonder how many folks have really done the loop on a $2000. boat?

Anyone can go for a 6000 mile boat ride in a 3 bedroom 2 bath floating house.

How many are willing to take up FF 's challenge and make a real adventure out of it?

JohnP

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[FF]

"How many are willing to take up FF 's challenge and make a real adventure out of it?"

That was a good question in 1950 when outboards were doing the loop, the wrong way (up the Miss).

Today its been done with jet skis and probably by canoes.

For a new adventure someone will need to SWIM the loop.

 

[Pineapple Girl]

FF wrote:
"How many are willing to take up FF 's challenge and make a real adventure out of it?"

That was a good question in 1950 when outboards were doing the loop, the wrong way (up the Miss).

Today its been done with jet skis and probably by canoes.

For a new adventure someone will need to SWIM the loop.

I*recently read a book about / by a guy who rowed*essentially the loop, with one brief portage (6 miles?) to cut out some of the great lakes bit and get on the rivers more quickly.* He actually added on at the end and rowed all the way to Massachusetts if not farther.* sounded like he mostly ate peanut butter and crackers.* He used a different boat from New Orleans to Mass than he did NY to NOLA--the later boat he made almost a pop top tent for so he could sleep on it.* He even had a kitten for a few days until*it mutinied.* He ended up finding a home for it in Key West.* *

All it takes is the desire, it seems!*


-- Edited by Pineapple Girl on Wednesday 30th of March 2011 02:11:06 PM

 

[skipperdude]

FF wrote:
"
For a new adventure someone will need to SWIM the loop.

*FF.**That cracks me up but ya know what I bet it will happen.

SD

*

 

[Art]

Regarding Wood Boats:

I spent my "formative" years in LI, NY nearly always on and about*wood boats... yes, I am water filled human being, from day one! *Fiberglass was basically nonexistent in my beginning to early boat days; I got into boats real young by working/cruising with pop!* From before early teens and onward for years my only $$$ employment was working with dad on boats or in local boat yards with other owners (diverted child labor that way).* When of age I became employed by the yards and worked with some darn good boat wrights.* At end of my young boating career I worked for the short lived Maine Coast Ship Builders on brand new wood and fiberglass craft from 26 to 70.* Ted Lang had come up from Freeport LI and brought my dad along as purchasing agent.* Dad always had a woody of one sort or another in a boat yard he was restoring... cause thats the kind of guy he was!

So... to answer your question: To Buy or Not To Buy a wood boat in 2011???* My answer seeing as your second post shows wood aint new to you Dont pay a penny over 10% of what the same boat configuration would be in fiberglass.* In other words, $40K glass = $4K wood, etc...* Sorry to be so hard on wood boat values, cause I used to love em... but, in my area thats a fact, and Im a business man... resale value in wood boats is flat dead!!* Unless its a SPECIAL classic in pristine condition... then its only ¾ dead!*

If you do get an inexpensive woody make sure ALL portions are in good condition and FREE from soft wood (rot).* Or within well less than 3 years you could run into a heck of a BIG problem, and, an old woody is NOT worth spending*on these days.

I.E.: Entire bottom should have been refastened within last 10 +/- years with monel or bronze silicone / hull sides and gunnels should be tightly fastened and well caulked-painted / entire keel straight and true / bow sprit solid / transom tight and solid and well painted or varnished / stringers / decks / tops / superstructure sides / window encasements / general bilge areas / anchor rode / mud boxes / through hulls / engines / transmissions / controls / gauges / steerage / fuel tanks / rudders / struts / cutlass bearings / shafts / etc... etc... etc... *Everything needs to be in real good condition to begin your cruise of a lifetime!

Then, if you do find a good ol woody, enjoy the heck out of yourself and unless you like to work on a boat forever plan on selling it to someone as a live aboard once your trip is completed.* Get it cheap enough to start with and you surely wont lose too much $$$$.* The fun youll have is worth every penny in that case!

Get it on!! - Art ****

 

[sunchaser]

Keep in mind that a wood boat hull that has been used/stored in salt water will last longer than a vessel in fresh water. I've heard that a salt water*boat going to fresh water can show rot below water line very quickly.

 

[FF]

"I've heard that a salt water boat going to fresh water can show rot below water line very quickly.



Remnants of an old wives tale about salting fish boats.

In the 1500's there were many "festival" and religious holidays when the local fish boats were kept in port.

Tossing salt into these usually green built wood boats helped keep them WET , and too wet and dry rot wont grow.

Wood under water will not go rotten m tho it can be eaten .

Wood above water will not rot if it can be kept dry, that's why deck leaks are so destructive, the wood goes from wet to dry.

A transition from wet to dry will pass thru the "just right" zone for dry rot.

 

[JohnP]

"*I've heard that a salt water*boat going to fresh water can show rot below water line very quickly."

I would rather have a wood boat that has only been in fresh water.

Less corrosion on the thousands of fasteners that hold her together.

Wood boats like most boats deteriorate from the top down.** JohnP<a></a>*

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[Tidahapah]

John P
I beg to differ.
Wooden boats are better in SW.
Fresh is what promotes rot.
If in fresh always throw a couple of handfulls of salt in the bilge to keep it good.
Benn

 

[dwhatty]

Tidahapah wrote:
John P
I beg to differ.
Wooden boats are better in SW.
Fresh is what promotes rot.
If in fresh always throw a couple of handfulls of salt in the bilge to keep it good.
Benn

I tend to agree with Benn. Fresh water is a wooden boat's enemy. We always used to throw* a batch of rock salt in the bilges on lay up each year. And John P is correct that they deteriorate from the top down.

*

 

[Codger2]

It's interesting to me that no one has mentioned the "worms" that infest a salt water wooden boat. Many years ago, in Seattle, owners of wooden ships used to bring them to Lake Union & Lake Washington for a period of time. The reason? To kill the worms that were in the hull. Copper cladding the bottoms of these old boats was done to retard marine growth* (electrolysis created by salt water & copper) but it* also retarded any infestations of "worms."


http://www.shelltrips.com/articles/shipworm/index.html






-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 2nd of April 2011 09:52:43 AM

 

[Nomad Willy]

Wood boats are better in salt water no doubt about it in my opinion but John P has a very good point about fasteners. What do they put in food to keep it from rotting (spoiling) salt! They say Douglas Fir almost never rots in salt water but goes like other woods in fresh. Another problem w wood boats is that they work. They are an assemblage of small parts screwed, nailed and bolted together. the parts are made of wood that is not dimensionally stable. The wood expans and contracts. When a boat quarters in a sea the waves tend to twist the hull*** ...back and forth*** ..this way and that. It's a wonder they stay together as long as they do. When you see a boat that's been sister ribed more than once, refastened, mostly replanked and w extensive keel repairs w wood of a different species than original walk away as though you've been to a funeral*** ..because you have. But don't volunteer to burry the cadaver. Like Art I love wood boats but 98% of wood boats available today are OLD wood boats. At my age I'd buy a new wood boat in a flash but a 40 year lid** ...almost never. It's a bit like buying a steel car that never got painted. Having said the above I was temped to buy a wood boat and sell it in 10 years for whatever mostly out of frustration because most of the boats I wanted were old wood boats. I'll edit and post a link to one I was lusting over.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=2284485&listing_id=941&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public

This is a real trawler guys. 1.5 gph, 1250rpm cruise, 5' draft, canoe stern ect ect. But you can't buy one anything like this in plastic or anything else except with a new custom build. The only way for an average guy like me to own something like this is to buy an old wood boat. And that my friends could be justafication for buying an old wood boat.

*


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 2nd of April 2011 09:57:12 AM

 

[JohnP]

A wood boat in good condition has no bottom leaks.* The bottom is usually protected by paint and the water in the bilge is most likely fresh from rain.

I really don't think the water the boat floats in makes it rot.* Besides as Walt pointed out no ship worms in fresh water.

The classic mahogany runabouts seem to do just fine on all the fresh water lakes.

Wood boats can last a long time, there are racing catboats on Barnegat Bay* over 100 years old.* Wood boats in the long run cost a lot more than glass boats.

JohnP

 

[Larry H]

For information on Grand Banks boats, this is a good site:

http://www.grandbanksowners.com/gbb/viewforum.php?f=1

 

[Tidahapah]

If I ever had fresh water in the bottom of my boat I would be looking for internal leaks.
The usual water is a slight sepage from the stern gland.
This keeps a salt content in the small amount of bilge water.
Toreodo worms are always a threat but modern antifouls keep them at bay most of the time but it is also a reason that wooden hull boats should be slipped at least every 12 months.
When I first launched Tidahapah I used to haul out every 6 to 8 months but that really kills the pocket, I am now out to 12 monthly but at the moment because of circumstances am out to 14 and can't wait to get the old girl home and out of the water for a few days.

Benn

 

[JohnP]

Another good one is www.gbwoodies.com .***** JohnP

 

[JohnP]

Tidahapah wrote:
Toreodo worms are always a threat but modern antifouls keep them at bay most of the time


Benn*** Do you have a worm shoe on your boat?***Here we install an oak piece on the bottom side of the keel with tar paper or copper inbetween.* If you touch bottom and scrape the paint off the worms eat the oak but can't pass into the real keel.

JohnP

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