AC receptacles won't run off shore power on 2022 ST 41

[LarryS]

Hello all, we recently purchased a used 2022 ST 41 and love it.

One nagging issue is we can't seem to get power to the AC receptacles (and TVs) from the generator or shore power. The only way to get the AC receptacles/TVs powered is to select the "neutral" position for the on-board circuit on the AC source menu of the touch screen, and have the inverter on.

While this setting works to get the receptacles on, it does not allow any of the AC appliances to be operated simultaneously, which is an inconvenience. It's hard to imagine the boat was designed to operate this way, so I assume I'm overlooking something here(?). The manual is silent on the topic.

Any ideas or guidance are most welcome. Thanks, Larry

 

[SteveK]

You should name the inverter model. Is it an inverter/charger or just inverter?
My guess is wiring is not correct. Neutral position on my switch is power off for both shore and gen. The plugs/receptacles should be powered from the inverter for when there is no shore power. If the inverter is not an inverter/charger then shore/gen power does not feed through and there is your problem.

 

[O C Diver]

I assume during the survey that the air conditioners were run. If so, it sounds like a switch in the wrong position. Typically, air conditioners don't run through the inverter, only off shore power and generator.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

So how are batteries getting charged? Does the vessel have a 3 way rotating switch that says off -shore - generator? A marine electrician should be able to quite quickly trouble shoot and deduce if the issue is related to wiring, switches or inverter.

If the inverter has failed the symptoms you describe are likely to occur. Quite simply the inverter is behaving as an off switch.

Which is why I believe strongly in the install of an inverter bypass switch. Inverters do fail. Quite often on new builds as so many different technicians have busy fingers.

 

[LarryS]

Thanks all for responses so far.

Inverter is a Mastervolt AC Master 12/2000. I have confirmed it is functioning.

Sorry to have created some misunderstanding; when I refer to AC I mean Alternating Current (as in 120/240 VAC), not Air Conditioning. The Air Conditioning is off and is not connected to any of the affected circuits on this version Beneteau.

Batteries are being charged by the battery charger, if I have the engines on or if the shore power is connected or the genny is on. As noted that means they are not being charged when the AC receptacles are working, and can only run the inverter for a while before discharging.

SteveK, I agree the shore power/genny is not feeding through and therein lies my problem. Beneteau has a controller box in this position (to select between inverter output and shore/genny power) and it seems likely something is amiss with it.

One of the fun things about this boat is that everything is controlled by relays and CANBUS so it is hard to even find places to put ones meter!

 

[SteveK]

If I understand correctly. Your central position chooses inverter.
Does inverter feed power to all plugs and any other ac outlets.
If it just goes to say the TV plug and not all then your boat is not wired to give output to all ac outlets, thus wiring.

 

[LarryS]

SteveK, the inverter feeds power to most ac outlets and the two TV's, but does not feed other ac appliances (such as induction cooktop, grill, ice maker, washer/dryer, microwave, water heater, etc).

However the inverter is not hardwired to the ac outlets/TV's; rather it goes through a relay box that chooses inverter or shore/genny ac power, "preferring" the latter if available. When the inverter is selected the outlets/TV's all work as expected, so I think the boat wiring is ok.

I was hoping some ST 41 owner could say "bingo I had this issue and...". However posting the thread has made me look harder at it so I crawled down in the cockpit lazarette and popped the cover off the relay box and it does seem the controlling relay has some signs of heat/smoke so likely that is the issue. I won't know for sure until it's replaced but seems likely this isn't a build issue but rather an electro/mechanical failure. Hope that does not become a theme (I've already replaced the temp sensor on one of the 4 Air Conditioning systems).

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

 

[luna]

From this vantage point I would think the wiring is correct, after all this is almost a new boat. Wouldn't you think the Builder, Dealer, original Owner, Seller and Broker would all have a vested interest in ensuring that things work?

Yes, the inverter could have been added after the original sale, but the vested interest issue would still apply to someone.

It would speak poorly of the Survey Community if this issue was not caught at the time of your Purchase Survey. You did one, right?

To me this is a "how do I operate my boat" issue.

On your touch screen, what other options (other than neutral, which itself is a weird name to use for ac switching, what's wrong with Off?) for ac soures exist? I'm hoping for Shore & Gen.

Let' say only one Shore option exists.

If you have access to shore power of whatever kind the boat uses, make sure that there is power at the boat end of the shore power cord. Then go turn the shore power's breaker off. Plug the boat in and then turn the breaker back on.
At your touch screen select Shore. Do you hear the clunk of a relay closing?
If not, have the Admiral toggle between Neutral and Short numerous times while you search for a faint clunk as it will be enclosed in an electrical box with black, white and green (plus maybe red) wires the diameter of a pencil feeding into the box.

If you hear nothing anywhere then the possible faults are the touch screen (unlikely), the wiring from touch screen to the relay, (let's hope it's not wireless) the relay itself (unlikely as the gen relay also does not work), the relays are sold state which are silent or you have no power to the relay's coil and or contacts.

I suspect the latter.

This whole audibly find the relay box thing is just so you can learn more about your boat and also find the breaker box that contains the shore power breakers. This relay box likely has 3 sets of black, white and green wires entering it. One set goes to your breaker box with all the branch circuit breakers in it, hopefully that set is easily determined. One of the remaining sets goes to the back side of the boat's shore power connection. Along the length of that set of wires (within 10' of the shore power connection) there should be a circuit breaker mounted in an accessible box.
Cycle that breaker from off to on. Select Shore on the touch screen and you should have power.

Follow the 3rd set of wires to find the genset's breakers, but first look at the genset as most often the breakers are mounted on the genset itself.

Unplug the boat, start the genset, turn the breakers on, touch Gen on the screen, you should have power.

If not, to either, you may have bigger problems.

Open no boxes, probe nothing, unless you know how to do it safely. What is inside can kill you.


The inverter issue powering only one circuit at a time seems impossible as how does the inverter turn off a branch circuit?

 

[luna]

Ok, while typing I see you posted that you found a relay possibly toasted.

If so, replace the relay with a high quality continuous duty relay and buy a replacement coil to have in ships stores for next time this happens.

 

[LarryS]

Thanks luna and all, I have ordered a replacement part, so will stand down for now and then report back once received and installed.

Larry

 

[boater3]

be sure to check all breakers from the shore inlet to panel, turn them all completely off, then back on. some are in hard to reach places.

we had a bad breaker on our st44, the house load never worked on generator since day 1, when i took ownership, it was immediately corrected.

 

[sunchaser]

LS
With a bit of experience and a VOM the suspect relay can easily be tested. A nearby marine tech could provide answers.

Changing and chasing suspect failed components is fraught with false alarms. A toasted relay on a “new” boat failed for a reason. Chasing this reason is as important as changing the relay.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[LarryS]

Hello all. Thanks again for the helpful insights. It turned out replacing the failed relay solved the issue. I replaced it with an identical make and part number. It has been working now for a couple of weeks, including testing with a toaster, coffee maker, and space heater.
Metering the source power and loads yielded no discrepancies that would indicate a failure cause. For now I am chalking it up to "infant mortality". We will see.
Cheers!

 

[boater3]

Hello all. Thanks again for the helpful insights. It turned out replacing the failed relay solved the issue. I replaced it with an identical make and part number. It has been working now for a couple of weeks, including testing with a toaster, coffee maker, and space heater.
Metering the source power and loads yielded no discrepancies that would indicate a failure cause. For now I am chalking it up to "infant mortality". We will see.
Cheers!

do you mind sharing the make and part number as well as where you purchased from? thanks

 

[tiltrider1]

Most likely there was a loose connection to the relay that created a lot of heat that eventually melted the relay internals.

Loose connections is the number one cause of heat related failures.

 

[luna]

One thing you can do to prolong the life of the high current contacts in the relay is to not switch the relay under any kind of load, you don't want them pitted by the resulting arc. Ensure all consumers are idle before you select the switch that energizes or de energizes the shore power, genset, or inverter. It's not hard to do, switches and breakers help, but you might have to wait for the fridge to cycle to idle.

An all to common failure mode for a well cared for, sized and installed relay is simply that the coil that creates the magnetic field to operate the relay, goes open, likely from heat caused degradation of the insulation on the wire that is used to make the coil. The best you can do here is select a continuous duty relay from a reputable manufacture, Eaton, Siemens or Schneider come to mind. There are others. Amazon's house brand is likely not one of them.

Good luck with your new relay.

 

[READY]

Luna, your kidding, right? Surely anything off Amazon is the best money can buy!

Seriously it is difficult for the average person to know whether a product is really reliable. Until you see and hold a top of the line unit next to a poor knock off. The knock offs can be OK in some use cases but I don't want them switching big loads!

My 1976 Hatteras has some electrical devices that clearly were close to or equal to military grade. Amazing how much of the electrical system is still performing after almost 50 years.

 

[luna]

Ready.

Your Hat has undoubtably the top notch electrical system of the day and today as you note, it is still performing. Insofar as electrical system basics are concerned, nothing has really changed in 50 years.

Your choice of boats is impeccable.

Selecting the proper components for any system takes time, effort and knowledge.
Knowledge as you note, is the tough part, but still doable for the DIYer as the info. is generally available online.
Price should be way down the list, as value is what you are after.
That is not going to change, regardless of who is selling what.

 

[LarryS]

Thanks again all.

The relay in question is a Finder 22.64.0.012.4610. I ordered it from RS (former Allied), which seems to be the only source for these in the US. They had it in stock. Price was a bit over $100, counting shipping and taxes. Ref attached sheet from Finder.

It is part of a custom Beneteau assembly that automatically switches from shore/gen to inverter power if the former goes away and the inverter is on....and the reverse if the other sources come back. Clearly it is not Beneteau's intent to avoid switching hot loads, but that can be managed by just not having the inverter sit on and idle. I diagramed the entire device; if anyone is curious I can upload it - Beneteau went to a lot of expense to automate this function.

Beneteau is sending me a new relay (boat is on warranty still) which I will use as a spare. The nearest dealer is in Shady Side, Maryland, and I would have had to get the boat there from my home dock in White Stone, VA on my own nickel to have them service it under warranty. So far more cost effective to fix myself. Something to think about when buying a newish boat.

You can be assured the connections are all tight now.

 

[boater3]

Thanks again all.

The relay in question is a Finder 22.64.0.012.4610. I ordered it from RS (former Allied), which seems to be the only source for these in the US. They had it in stock. Price was a bit over $100, counting shipping and taxes. Ref attached sheet from Finder.

It is part of a custom Beneteau assembly that automatically switches from shore/gen to inverter power if the former goes away and the inverter is on....and the reverse if the other sources come back. Clearly it is not Beneteau's intent to avoid switching hot loads, but that can be managed by just not having the inverter sit on and idle. I diagramed the entire device; if anyone is curious I can upload it - Beneteau went to a lot of expense to automate this function.

Beneteau is sending me a new relay (boat is on warranty still) which I will use as a spare. The nearest dealer is in Shady Side, Maryland, and I would have had to get the boat there from my home dock in White Stone, VA on my own nickel to have them service it under warranty. So far more cost effective to fix myself. Something to think about when buying a newish boat.

You can be assured the connections are all tight now.

just so you know, if the dealer is not local, get an estimate from a local contractor, and have a dealer submit the warranty claim for you. go to beneteau corporate if you need to.

 

[caseclosed]

On my 2018 44 Swift I have and auxiliary breaker switch on the panel that allows me to by pass the inverter. When switched on it provides power to all my outlets on the boat without the inverter.

 

[sunchaser]

It is part of a custom Beneteau assembly that automatically switches from shore/gen to inverter power if the former goes away and the inverter is on....and the reverse if the other sources come back. Clearly it is not Beneteau's intent to avoid switching hot loads, but that can be managed by just not having the inverter sit on and idle. I diagramed the entire device; if anyone is curious I can upload it - Beneteau went to a lot of expense to automate this function.

This seems a strange setup and fraught with problems such as you’ve already encountered. I much prefer a setup where the inverter on off is not part of the shore gen on off switch. Further, when off the boat and plugged into shore power I suggest the inverter should always be off.

Lastly, why the relay failed is a question still lurking.

 

[FDMJR]

Larry, I just bought a 2021 Swift 41 with the same problem and discolored relay. It was warm to the touch. I replaced it and the new relay is also warm which I didn't expect. There's a 22 swift 41 in my marina and the same relay shows signs of heat too. I just replaced it today so hopefully it is okay. Yours still working?

 

[LarryS]

Hello FDMJR, Yes the replaced relay is still working. We recently came down the ICW to Ft Lauderdale staying in marinas and anchoring out, and now about to head back north, so the relay has definitely been exercised!