Access to aft wall of forward head in Helmsman 38

[Comodave]

If you have to use a multi tool to cut the screws then use blue tape on the fiberglass to give you some margin for error in scratching the fiberglass. Or if you have room use a 6” wide putty knife laid flat on the fiberglass to stop the glass from getting scratched. Worse case sacrifice the mirror because you can replace the mirror much easier than repair the glass if you damage it.

 

[FWT]

This mirror / towel bar project slipped down the priorities list for two and a half months, but I made some minor progress today. I slipped a shim between the fiberglass wall and the mirror frame to put resistance on whatever the middle two screws are in, but it made no difference in how freely the screws spin.

Before I put the multi tool blade in there and risk marring the surfaces, I think it’s worth trying to figure out if there is some adhesive holding the mirror to the wall. There is very, very little give in the wood mirror frame (barely enough to get a sharp edge shim in) and it seems like pretty common practice to use screws to hold something in place while the adhesive sets. Does that seem likely in this case? Is that what Helmsman does in other applications?

I think there are two different questions buried in there. 1) what does Helmsman do today? And 2) what did the yard do back in the day when it was Mariner, and your vintage?

Today its entirely possible some industrial strength 3M double sided tape is used at least in part. I infer that from a conversation a while back. That thought is also reinforced by a conversation with a dirt commercial office construction contractor on a very different topic, about how well that stuff works and how often its used.

But I have zero idea what was available or if used back in the day of your vintage.

When you pry up the frame, is the mirror moving with it, or just the frame? If the mirror is staying put, that would support the idea there is some adhesive behind it.

 

[Comodave]

I used 3M VHB tape, very high bond, to stick up a couple of large pictures on bulkheads in our last boat. They were there for the duration.

 

[FWT]

I used 3M VHB tape, very high bond, to stick up a couple of large pictures on bulkheads in our last boat. They were there for the duration.

So since you have experience, if one wanted to loosen up the bond, any idea how to do it? Like dribbling denatured alcohol onto it?

 

[Comodave]

I didn’t plan on removing the pictures from the bulkhead since it would probably take the outer layer of teak with it. But if I had to try to remove it from fiberglass I would try some wedges to put some constant pressure on it. Then maybe some 3M adhesive remover. I got mine on Amazon.

3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner, 08987, Removes Adhesive Residue, Gentle On Paint/Vinyl/Fabric, 15 fl oz

 

[OldDan1943]

Why not research the tape looking for a release agent.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Excellent ideas. I have a can of 3M adhesive remover and it definitely removes adhesive. Excellent idea.

My Mariner 37 is hull #3 and called a 2007 model.

 

[Comodave]

Excellent ideas. I have a can of 3M adhesive remover and it definitely removes adhesive. Excellent idea.

My Mariner 37 is hull #3 and called a 2007 model.

Yes, I had to remove some of the VHB tape from a vinyl drip edge. Acetone didn’t work much but the 3M adhesive remover did.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

This mirror removal project finally floated back to the top of the list this week and I had a chance to apply some 3M Adhesive Remover to the perimeter of the mirror. It did not let go.

I also tried multi tooling off the last two screws and they turned out to be tougher than the cheapo blade I brought (see inset below). Should have seen that coming. The screws just turned as the blade hit them. I'll come back with a proper blade, but it seems to me that if those last two screws are loose enough to turn freely, their grip on whatever backing board they thread in to is also loose enough that the mirror should wobble. It doesn't.

I tried (in vain) to photograph the gap between the wood frame and the gelcoated wall. I had to lean on the orange plastic pry "bars" to get the frame to flex enough to produce the ⅛" gap shown below. While it's not a great illustration, you can see several inches into the gap between the wall and the mirror.

Here's how I see the assembly of that mirror. A guy smears some 4200 on the wall in an oval a few inches smaller than the size of the mirror, then holds the mirror in place in the adhesive on the wall and puts the six screws in to hold it tight while the adhesive sets. The screws just go into the fiberglass as they only need to hold long enough for the adhesive to set.

If that's the case, 3M Adhesive Remover is still the answer. I just need to get it progressively deeper into the gap and be ready for the mirror to let go. Figure I am reading that right?

 

[OldDan1943]

This mirror removal project finally floated back to the top of the list this week and I had a chance to apply some 3M Adhesive Remover to the perimeter of the mirror. It did not let go.

I also tried multi tooling off the last two screws and they turned out to be tougher than the cheapo blade I brought (see inset below). Should have seen that coming. The screws just turned as the blade hit them. I'll come back with a proper blade, but it seems to me that if those last two screws are loose enough to turn freely, their grip on whatever backing board they thread in to is also loose enough that the mirror should wobble. It doesn't.

I tried (in vain) to photograph the gap between the wood frame and the gelcoated wall. I had to lean on the orange plastic pry "bars" to get the frame to flex enough to produce the ⅛" gap shown below. While it's not a great illustration, you can see several inches into the gap between the wall and the mirror.

Here's how I see the assembly of that mirror. A guy smears some 4200 on the wall in an oval a few inches smaller than the size of the mirror, then holds the mirror in place in the adhesive on the wall and puts the six screws in to hold it tight while the adhesive sets. The screws just go into the fiberglass as they only need to hold long enough for the adhesive to set.

If that's the case, 3M Adhesive Remover is still the answer. I just need to get it progressively deeper into the gap and be ready for the mirror to let go. Figure I am reading that right?

Sounds like a good plan

 

[AdmiralS]

You could also take some piano wire and work back and forth behind to try and cut the adhesive if that is the case.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

You could also take some piano wire and work back and forth behind to try and cut the adhesive if that is the case.

Ooh, that's a good idea. Added to the list. Thanks, Admiral S.

 

[Centurion]

We have a 2008 Mariner 37 and I dont believe you can access the other side of the bulkhead where the mirror is. If you look inside the storage nook behind toilet, and follow the pump out & macerator hoses where they lead down to the holding tank, you will see that they follow down the gap between the head wall and the pilothouse wall.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

That's the gap I'm trying to access. Doesn't have to be much; just enough to put nuts on the threaded studs of a hand rail / towel bar. Enough space for those hoses is plenty of space for nuts.

I get that there is no convenient access, but if I can get that mirror off the wall, I plan to cut in access and then replace the mirror. See any problem with that?

And thank you and welcome aboard, Centurion. We have hull #3. What is your 2008?

 

[peterg]

towel bar - glue?

If the bar is just to hold a towel, how about gluing something to the wall (maybe a wood strip) that the bar can be mounted to?

 

[Comodave]

Have sawsall will travel to cut up your boat…

 

[Centurion]

Thank you HeadedToTexas, been learning a lot from this forum for years.
Believe we have Hull 11 (XOD13711) , third owners since 2016.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

If the bar is just to hold a towel, how about gluing something to the wall (maybe a wood strip) that the bar can be mounted to?

Have sawsall will travel to cut up your boat…

It may get to that, but I am still confident my plan will come together. My goal is to make any mods I make look factory. Why would a coastal trawler with long range Loop-esque range like the Mariner 37 be built with a shower but no towel bars?

 

[HeadedToTexas]

...third owners since 2016.

Nice. Does that mean it has been Looping?

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Have sawsall will travel to cut up your boat…

Finally got together with my multitool and an appropriate blade here at the boat. That got the remaining two screws out, but it also confirmed that some adhesive is holding the mirror to the gelcoat wall. It also makes increasingly unlikely that there is an access hole behind that mirror.

There should be though. At this point, I think the glass mirror is expendable. I hope to save the frame. Once the glass is gone and the frame is off, I will drill an exploratory hole. If there is enough room in the plenum between the gelcoat wall in head and the wood and fiberglass bulkhead that forms the forward wall of the pilothouse, I plan to use the multitool to cut away enough to get a wrench on the nuts to hold my towel bar tight.

Seems like a lot, but I think that's the best place to keep towels on this boat.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Still hung up on preserving the glass and wood frame (and not cutting my finger off on broken glass) and that has slowed progress on this to a crawl. Another post here looking to access space behind a wall got me thinking about a different approach.

The forward head on the Mariner 37/Helmsman 38 is great, but there isn't readily accessible storage for routine items like toothbrushes, toothpaste, hairbrush, etc. Temporary solutions like hanging the travel valet have been our answer so far, but what if I replace that mirror with a thin medicine cabinet?

Once the mirror and frame are gone (the piano wire method remains my best bet), suppose I cut out a suitable size rectangle and fabricate a thin box with a couple of shelves, then cover the shelves with a hinged door not that different than the OEM framed mirror?

The rectangular opening would also provide access to mount the towel bar. Hmmm.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Still no success mounting a much needed towel bar in the forward head, but I made some headway today. Again, my goal has been to mount a stud type bar on that wall using washers and nuts from behind the wall to secure the bar. I envisioned an access cutout behind the mirror through which the washers and nuts could be installed.

Today my inspection camera revealed a gap approximately ½” wide between the wood bulkhead and the fiberglass shell of the forward head wall. Accessing that gap through a cutout behind the mirror would be difficult at best and the gap is probably not wide enough for the washer and nut to fit on the towel bar stud.

It is clearly time to give up on the stud mount bar like the ones on the sliding cabin doors and instead use a flange type bar like the one in the forward shower. Finding a way to mount the flanged type with wood screws feels far more practical at this point.

My strategy is to level the bar, mark the holes, drill the holes, and fill each hole with a small amount of expanding foam. Once the foam sets, Dremel out a cylinder for each screw hole between the fiberglass wall and wood bulkhead and fill that cylinder with thickened epoxy like you would for mounting hardware on foam core decks. Once the epoxy sets, re-drill out the screw hole through to the wood bulkhead and mount the bar with appropriate stainless wood screws. Am I missing anything?

 

[HeadedToTexas]

It took over 3 years and I never did get access to the space between the head wall and the bulkhead, but after drilling holes in that wall I did discover that the space is only ⅜" and not enough to get nuts on mounting studs, much less a wrench in there to tighten them.

In the end, I filled the space around the holes with epoxy, re-drilled the holes and mounted the grab bar with screws like several other grab bars aboard. Mariner should have supplied it this way from the beginning.

 

[Helmsman]

Looks like a good solution. Smart move to spray the foam and create your own epoxy tunnel.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Where the wall has a good bit of give across the whole area, it is rock solid at those epoxy pillars. Made for a very solid towel bar!

 

[Nocanvas]

Solid sounding fix.