Air conditioning

[tedted]

Hi Folks, Well, we're one step closer to owning a trawler. Unfortunately the only way we can do it is thru a LOT of sweat equity and DIYing.
MY question today is air conditioning. The good news is the boat has air. The bad news is it doesn't work

I was wondering if it is possible to recharge a small air conditioning unit?
I've heard that they are too sensitive due to their size to be able to recharge them. Has anyone had any luck recharging an an air conditioning system?

 

[Panacea]

Hi Folks, Well, we're one step closer to owning a trawler. Unfortunately the only way we can do it is thru a LOT of sweat equity and DIYing.
MY question today is air conditioning. The good news is the boat has air. The bad news is it doesn't work

I was wondering if it is possible to recharge a small air conditioning unit?
I've heard that they are too sensitive due to their size to be able to recharge them. Has anyone had any luck recharging an an air conditioning system?

Yes, they can be recharged, but the refrigerant "got out" somehow. This indicates there is a refrigerant leak. You may top it off and only a week later its not blowing cold anymore.

You need an EPA license to buy refrigerant. I heard it s pretty cheap and you can get it online. The older gasses are expensive.

A proper refrigerant guy down here charges $80/$100 hr. They will want to fix the leak which is an involved proce$$ instead of being the "refrigerant delivery boy".

My recommendation: Get a refer guy that will charge your unit and apply a leak-stop product. I have a 20+ year old unit that was leaking and on it's way to the bone yard. My refer guy put a stop-leak product in with the gas charge as a "hail Mary" attempt and it has been running strong for almost 2 years now. This should only cost one hour labor plus the small amount of refrigerant gas and the cheap stop-leak.

 

[DavidM]

Yes, you do have to find and fix the leak. But getting the refrigerant charge right on a boat A/C system is difficult. You can't just squirt some refrigerant in and hope for the best.


The right way is to drain all refrigerant and then weigh the refrigerant as you fill so you meet the manufacturer's specified weight. If you don't do this, it may not work.


David

 

[folivier]

Here I go again with my motorhome analogy.
My Newell had basement a/c's. The proper way to recharge them was to a certain amp draw. This worked well with the smaller amount of refrigerant needed.
Ask your a/c guy if he is familiar doing it this way. The manufacturer should have an amp table for this.

 

[Panacea]

For reference, here is a youtube video of the process on a residential mini-split unit:

Although refrigeration is refrigeration...I'd get a refer guy that is familiar with marine systems.

 

[tedted]

Hey Thanks guys, I feel a little better about taking a chance on having it serviced.

 

[Shoalwaters]

Ted: It sounds like your boat may have a few years on it, so the a/c unit(s) probably do too. When you have the refrigerant issue solved, it is worthwhile checking to see if the fan(s) are blowing as hard as they should. Cleaning the dirt from the "'valley" of the fan blades can result in a remarkable increase in the fans’ performance. There may be filter screens behind the louvers and on the inlet side of the evaporator. Check that they are clear of fug.

 

[kody]

Stop leak

What ever you do, don't use stop leak. The previous owner of my last boat did instead of properly finding the leak and correcting. It only ended up costing
9k to replace two units. Sigh...

 

[ranger58sb]

Some of the newer units are said to be so much more efficient and quieter than even our existing 14-year-old systems (which work pretty well, actually, knocking on wood)... that I'd be inclined to give it about one shot at a fix... and if that didn't work easily /cheaply... I'd bag the old and replace with new anyway.


In our case, replacing a whole unit would probably be slightly easier than troubleshooting minor bits and pieces of an old one -- while in place -- anyway.


Well, except for writing the big check, of course.


-Chris

 

[Panacea]

What ever you do, don't use stop leak. The previous owner of my last boat did instead of properly finding the leak and correcting. It only ended up costing
9k to replace two units. Sigh...

How old were your two units? $4500/unit? If you were just replacing existing units labor should have been minimal. Must have been two 36,000BTU split system units or chilled water system for that price.

IMHO if you are replacing compressors and brazing copper piping and installing new driers and reversing valves *on 10+ year old smaller stand-alone units* you are usually throwing good money after bad. If you get 10 years out of an air conditioner you are ahead of the game (at least down here on South Florida where they are running practically 24 hours a day 365 days a year). If its leaking, stop-leak that thing and when if it doesn't hold rip it out and throw in a new one!

 

[kulas44]

Give Joe a call at Ocean Breeze. Tell him what you have, and send a pic. He will build an exact replacement for it. With modern components. If you want to keep your old controll system he can do that to. I have purchased several smaller units from them, 6000s, 9000s, and 16,000 btu units and none were even close to $4500. He built my house unit, a 6 ton compressor/condensor that uses pool water for cooling for $1850. Great customer service. I highly reccomend them.

 

[BobH]

I added Freon (R22) to two units on our '84 sailboat in early 2000. They both still ran great when we sold the boat after living aboard for 6 years. Only took that one time top off. Fortunately I knew a guy who had a license and could get me the R22.

On our current boat I replaced both units, 12000 and a 16000 BTU, for I think around $1400 to $1600 each.

 

[fletch]

Yep, agree with the other posts, "call the man" as Aunt Bea found out in the Andy Griffith freezer episode

 

[Panacea]

Give Joe a call at Ocean Breeze. Tell him what you have, and send a pic. He will build an exact replacement for it. With modern components. If you want to keep your old controll system he can do that to. I have purchased several smaller units from them, 6000s, 9000s, and 16,000 btu units and none were even close to $4500. He built my house unit, a 6 ton compressor/condensor that uses pool water for cooling for $1850. Great customer service. I highly reccomend them.

I have to chime in again and agree 100% with Ocean Breeze. I installed the 7 Ocean Breeze units on my boat I just finished installing the 3 units on my son's Gulfstar 36. If you run into issues Joe or Alex will walk you through it. Good local business made in the USA. Also, the electronics are all non-proprietary, so no $800 thermostat when a PCB goes bad!

 

[hmason]

One more ? For Joe at Ocean Breeze. His company custom fabricated a compressor for our refrigeration unit that was no longer supported.

 

[ddalme]

Give Joe a call at Ocean Breeze. Tell him what you have, and send a pic. He will build an exact replacement for it. With modern components. If you want to keep your old controll system he can do that to. I have purchased several smaller units from them, 6000s, 9000s, and 16,000 btu units and none were even close to $4500. He built my house unit, a 6 ton compressor/condensor that uses pool water for cooling for $1850. Great customer service. I highly reccomend them.

 

[tedted]

Thanks for the input. Like BobH, I have a buddy that is licensed and has all the goodies. He was reluctant mainly on account of the relatively small charge and the sensitivity of these air conditioners to charge volume. With the cost of a new unit, I'd really like to take a chance on getting this one up. If it pukes, well nothing lost. Then I'll get ahold of Ocean Breeze. Especially as our previous boat is still for sale......

 

[FF]

You may find recharge kits at Auto Zone.

Just be sure its compatible with F 22 (if thats the charge now) and go slowly.

The Car Store refrigerant will not be freon , most likely propane 80% and Butane 20% , which happens to be more efficient than even the old standby R12.

 

[motion30]

with a proper set of gauges and the correct freon servicing these units is no more difficult Then the air-conditioning's you have at home. The service valves are often a common point of leakage

 

[kody]

How old were your two units? $4500/unit? If you were just replacing existing units labor should have been minimal. Must have been two 36,000BTU split system units or chilled water system for that price.

IMHO if you are replacing compressors and brazing copper piping and installing new driers and reversing valves *on 10+ year old smaller stand-alone units* you are usually throwing good money after bad. If you get 10 years out of an air conditioner you are ahead of the game (at least down here on South Florida where they are running practically 24 hours a day 365 days a year). If its leaking, stop-leak that thing and when if it doesn't hold rip it out and throw in a new one!

I replaced/ repaired most of two spit units. I chose to go with direct name brand units instead of after market because I was selling the boat and wanted to have a good warranty to pass on. I didn't want to be accused of putting a bs bandaid on the system. The shop told me that the premature failure of the system that only spent two of it's ten year life in Florida, was a direct result of using stop leak instead of properly repairing the system. Reminds me of a dock mate that advised another to put JB Weld on a leaking genset exhaust elbow. Sheesh!
At least my repair $ wasn't like a friends $ on his Westport's chilled water system. His was 17k. You probably wouldn't believe that either.
The good advice given in this thread imho, is to get advice from a factory trained technician from a reputable company.

 

[bayview]

I think we are ahead of ourselves here. There are many reasons for old AC to not work. It is a big jump to assume a Freon leak. All the failures of my systems have been electronic control issues.


IMO have an expert well known in your area diagnose the problem. Replacing control boards with labor can equal half the cost of a new system.

 

[BobH]

Don't recall any 'electronics' in the units we have had on board. Bunch of relays mostly.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Hi Folks, Well, we're one step closer to owning a trawler. Unfortunately the only way we can do it is thru a LOT of sweat equity and DIYing.
MY question today is air conditioning. The good news is the boat has air. The bad news is it doesn't work

Define "doesn't work"?

Doesn't come on at all?

Comes on but doesn't cool?

Comes on but shuts off?

Only the fan comes on?

Etc.?

 

[tedted]

Survey says "Air Runs". Owner says it doesn't. I haven't been able to substantiate anything yet as we cut the check two days ago and the boat is 250 miles away. My first thought is no Freon. But I could be way off base. The unit is older from what I saw. It was 15 degrees the day we saw the boat so the air wasn't really the first thing coming to mind. It's old enough that it may still be an R12 unit. I believe my buddy still has a stash of R12 though. New units aren't too bad pricewise with the thru hulls, strainers, pumps etc. already in place, but I'd sure like to get it thru a couple years to where the cash stash isn't so tight. There's no doubt in my mind that there will be LOTS of surprises to eat up our little kitty besides the AC .

 

[kulas44]

R22 probably. No, make that definitely.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Survey says "Air Runs". Owner says it doesn't. I haven't been able to substantiate anything yet as we cut the check two days ago and the boat is 250 miles away. My first thought is no Freon. But I could be way off base. The unit is older from what I saw. It was 15 degrees the day we saw the boat so the air wasn't really the first thing coming to mind. It's old enough that it may still be an R12 unit. I believe my buddy still has a stash of R12 though. New units aren't too bad pricewise with the thru hulls, strainers, pumps etc. already in place, but I'd sure like to get it thru a couple years to where the cash stash isn't so tight. There's no doubt in my mind that there will be LOTS of surprises to eat up our little kitty besides the AC .

Well in that case there is no point I speculating till you/we have a lot more information. Not that that will stop anybody from doing so.

 

[Baker]

I will say that I bought a boat where the rear AC was not blowing cold air. I had budgeting in the price of the boat that the rear AC was going to have to be replaced. I thought I would at least give it a go and try to charge it up. I have a really good guy here and he charged it up. It has been working since(3 years). I can only guess that the seals were leaking and once they got regular use, they stopped leaking. He kept threatening to use a stop leak product but none was needed. These AC units are 15 years old and they are still hanging in there.

Some people have said that it should be plug and play if you replace them. That is not always the case. The way they made AC units 15+ years ago is not necessarily the same way they make them now. So if you are constrained by space, it may not work! I know this because my guy has been doing this a long time...and I was considering just blowing it off and buying a new unit to "plug and play". He said the unit I have is not made anymore and that a new one would have to be custom made to fit that space. Just a heads up!!!!

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

I bought and installed 2 Ocean Breeze units 3 years ago and can not speak highly enough of them. Made in Ft. Pierce they are a large military contractor, rugged and easy to work on as no exotic electronics. I used Home Depot automatic WIFI thermostats and can set the controls from anywhere.

Big thumbs up on Ocean Breeze.

 

[Baker]

Well I guess it is official. If I ever have to replace an AC unit, Ocean Breeze it is!!!

 

[Ski in NC]

I installed Mermaid units when I built my sled. I think they are somewhat similar to Ocean Breeze. Very basic control system, uses household typ thermostats. The biggest complaint I have of Marine Aire, Cruiseair and others is the complex proprietary thermostats and controls that poop often. Then you are stuck dealing with them and their prices.

The Mermaids have been flawless for ten years. Except for one problem: A pooped thermostat. Off to Lowes and 40 bucks later, back in business.

I'm going to look into those web based thermostats. That would be handy when I am on a work trip I can look up temp and change it if needed. Hmmmm...