Alternatives to Krogen Express?

[PhysicsTeacher]

I've concluded that a Krogen Express coastal cruiser is the best fit for my desires: Great Loop capable, low 4' draft for exploring my native Florida and docking behind my house on the St Johns River, two roomy staterooms with two head/showers, seaworthy to the extent of sailing the Caribbean and Gulf, and (non-negotiable) a stand-up engine room. However, I solicit any suggestions for comparable boats that I should consider before I make the leap.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Bob Breum
Lake Monroe, Florida

 

[N4712]

Went on one during Trawler Fest, didn't appear to be built very well small for the size, and also the woodwork wasn't anything special. Also didn't like that they put Yanmars, but that's just IMO.

 

[PhysicsTeacher]

Went on one during Trawler Fest, didn't appear to be built very well small for the size, and also the woodwork wasn't anything special. Also didn't like that they put Yanmars, but that's just IMO.

Most of the boats on the used market are equipped with Cats, not Yanmars. Honestly, I'm not that concerned with the woodwork, as long as it is functional. Someday I see myself in a Nordhavn, but I want to put in a couple of years or so getting my feet wet exploring the east coast and the islands first.

Bob

 

[N4712]

Most of the boats on the used market are equipped with Cats, not Yanmars. Honestly, I'm not that concerned with the woodwork, as long as it is functional. Someday I see myself in a Nordhavn, but I want to put in a couple of years or so getting my feet wet exploring the east coast and the islands first.

Bob

Oh ok, my knowledge was limited to the one I boarded. Cats are great engines! Do you plan to go faster then normal displacement speeds, or just average displacement speeds? You can explore the wast coast and the islands with a Nordy, we are.

 

[twistedtree]

It's a little smaller, but a Grand Banks Europa is great for what your describe, and I think an all-around better built and finished boat.

 

[sunchaser]

What Cat engines? Not all are made equal. Lots of other vessels to consider but absent more details on your must haves and budget, difficult to come up with comps. That said, for the loop Offshore and GB have some lovely choices assuming you want to comfortably cruise at 16 knots.

 

[pilothouse king]

Actually was looking at one this afternoon, and was surprised to just notice there's no direct access from the flybridge to the aft deck. One has to go down the stairs and back through the salon to reach the aft deck. That's really not the best route when one's in a hurry, like needing to release a line (-yeah I've done that before, got a few feet then boing!!) or need to grab a line. Good looking boats though.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Lots of other vessels to consider but absent more details on your must haves and budget, difficult to come up with comps.

Actually, when you read what he posted, "and (non-negotiable) a stand-up engine room.", there are not that many vessels out there in that size range to consider after all.

 

[twistedtree]

Actually, when you read what he posted, "and (non-negotiable) a stand-up engine room.", there are not that many vessels out there in that size range to consider after all.

Probably true, but it seems a shame to compromise the boat for the sake of the engine room.

 

[knotheadcharters]

The one I was on at Trawlerfest a few years ago had John Deer for engines. IMO the Krogen Express is an ideal couples all around cruiser for just about everything. Great range, ability to go slow or kick to the teens, low air draft, shallow draft, pilothouse comfort, stand-up engine room, plenty of room for a nice tender, walk-around decks, nice galley Etc. I could go on but as you can tell I'm kind of smitten. My dock neighbor has one so I see it every day. I love my Californians' aft deck, so does the Admiral but I would trade for the KE in a heartbeat.

 

[Moonstruck]

The one I was on at Trawlerfest a few years ago had John Deer for engines. IMO the Krogen Express is an ideal couples all around cruiser for just about everything. Great range, ability to go slow or kick to the teens, low air draft, shallow draft, pilothouse comfort, stand-up engine room, plenty of room for a nice tender, walk-around decks, nice galley Etc. I could go on but as you can tell I'm kind of smitten. My dock neighbor has one so I see it every day. I love my Californians' aft deck, so does the Admiral but I would trade for the KE in a heartbeat.

Not to mention the commodious, covered aft deck for indoor outdoor living. My only real negative of the design is 2 sets of steps to access the forward cabins. I guess you have to compromise something to get that stand up engine room.

I think it could be a really good cruiser for Florida and the Bahamas. I like it.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Probably true, but it seems a shame to compromise the boat for the sake of the engine room.

I don't think a Krogan express is much of a compromise. They seem like a pretty nice boat.

 

[twistedtree]

The one I was on at Trawlerfest a few years ago had John Deer for engines.

Are you sure it was a Krogen Express and not a Kadey Krogen? Totally different boats and totally different companies. I ask because Deeres are pretty common in Kadey Krogens, and people often assume the two boats are from the same company.

My apologies in advance is you already know all this, and in the words of Roseanne Roseanadana, "never mind".

 

[twistedtree]

I don't think a Krogan express is much of a compromise. They seem like a pretty nice boat.

Well, the great thing about boats is that there is one out there for everyone no matter what your preferences. On the Krogen Express I was on, I just didn't think the build quality and fit and finish were comparable to a Grand Banks. But we all have our own priorities, so whatever rings the buyer's bell, they should buy.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Well, the great thing about boats is that there is one out there for everyone no matter what your preferences. On the Krogen Express I was on, I just didn't think the build quality and fit and finish were comparable to a Grand Banks. But we all have our own priorities, so whatever rings the buyer's bell, they should buy.

I agree the GBs are better built in some ways. But the requirement for a true stand up engine room eliminates most GB models around that size from contention. Other than perhaps the older 48-49' motor yacht models. Which are a much different style than the Krogan express.

 

[PhysicsTeacher]

I truly appreciate all of the input. I posted here because there is no search option for a stand-up engine room or low draft, and I was confident that the forum subscribers would be able to help.

Regarding engines, I have only seen Cats and Yanmars on the Krogen Express, with the Yanmars being the less common, more expensive, higher power option.

I researched the Grand Banks suggestion. It looks like the 46' models have a similar draft, but that access to the engine room requires lifting the stairs. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm looking for engine room access that can be easily accessed while under way, and not by passing through a stateroom, as in some Nordhavns.

As far as price range, I hope to spend between $400-600K on a used boat. Less is always welcome, of course.

Bob

 

[sunchaser]

The ER access and work space Physics Teacher likes on the Express will come in handy as all too many Cat 3116s have exceeded f=ma limitations. Be sure that outboard after cooler can be easily reached and removed.

Over propping on this vessel is a no no. Be sure it can exceed rated full load RPM by about 50 in its current state.

 

[PhysicsTeacher]

The ER access and work space Physics Teacher likes on the Express will come in handy as all too many Cat 3116s have exceeded f=ma limitations.

Your reference to Newton's 2nd law gave me a chuckle, but can you be more specific? It would seem that overpropping would reduce the a in F=ma, but I think you just threw that in there for comic effect. What effect does chronic overpropping have on these engines? What other concerns should I have regarding the Cats?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[sunchaser]

What effect does chronic overpropping have on these engines? What other concerns should I have regarding the Cats?

Thanks,

Bob

The best source for this type of information is boatdiesel.com with literally hundreds of threads on the more popular engines. The lower HP version Cat 3116 and 3126 can be marvelous engines if propped and serviced correctly. All too few are done so. Once above the 350HP rating the effects of over propping and subsequent overload commonly lead to cracked heads through overheating.

Lack of servicing on the after coolers on any diesel can lead to salt water leaks and early engine demise. The Cat after coolers on the 3116 require special attention.

A priced right - to allow all in financial latitude if engine problems are evident - Express can still yield immense fun and pleasure. Cat supports parts and knowledge for the 3116 and will for a very long time. The Express is a unique vessel and will always have a good following for reasons you have noted. Add to that the reasonable economy at 16 knots with a good running set of engines and even Sir Isaac would be happy.

 

[Bluto]

I looove the KE 52's, they are so classic in design and lines.. The one thing I noticed, that seemed like a bad choice (I could well be wrong) was the 480HP Yanmars are fairly small displacement engines, like 360 0r 70 cubic inches.
That's asking an awful lot of those cubes. How much actual time you would spend at full throttle? Probably not enough to cause problems.

I only have two dream boats in my fevered mind, and the KE52 is one of them. <wolf whistle>

 

[Nomad Willy]

I don't see where the Teacher is shopping used or new. Perhaps used is assumed.

If not .. the KE is basically a lobsterboat and great opportunities exist in Maine for a custom boat along lobsterboat lines. A quality built wood boat is also an option. Being lightweight is a bigger advantage to lobsterboats than most. If I had the money that's what I'd do. There's more FG boats than wood though.

A custom boat can be made on a stock hull for economy or because one likes a certain hull. Even within the stock hull there's lots of choices. Built down w deeper draft or skeg built and very shallow. Or the reverse if you wish.

So if you like the kid in a candy store thought a custom build may open doors not yet even dreamed about. And I think there are some very skilled builders up in Maine. I need to go there too.

 

[Moonstruck]

I looove the KE 52's, they are so classic in design and lines.. The one thing I noticed, that seemed like a bad choice (I could well be wrong) was the 480HP Yanmars are fairly small displacement engines, like 360 0r 70 cubic inches.
That's asking an awful lot of those cubes. How much actual time you would spend at full throttle? Probably not enough to cause problems.

I only have two dream boats in my fevered mind, and the KE52 is one of them. <wolf whistle>

Seems to me the Yanmar CX series would be better suited at about 452 cu in. They could push that boat without working too hard.

 

[Bluto]

Seems to me the Yanmar CX series would be better suited at about 452 cu in. They could push that boat without working too hard.

I agree.
I imagine they used the smaller ones to keep some free space in the engine room.
I studied the charts for RPM and speed over the water, the boat moves out at a good clip at 2000 RPM, about 13 knots. (10.4 GPH)
I bet they can run that speed continuously.
The engines top out at 3300 and the boat making 22.4 knots!
Pretty nice. The Admiral could do some water skiing.
A bit of a racket going on in that ER, though.
Best speed for me would be 10 knots, 1500 RPM, 4.8 GPH..
These are travelers, man.

 

[healhustler]

I'm not exactly known for my style taste in boats, but the KE is one that makes me swoon, perhaps more than any semi-custom or production vessel mfg. right now. Add the stand-up engine room and the IPL (image/performance/looks) quotient is over the top.

 

[caltexflanc]

I'm not exactly known for my style taste in boats

You're not? You have one of the coolest boats of all!

I got a tour of and a half day on the water in KE 52 a few years ago, from some new owners passing through and shaking down a few things. I really liked the boat and the operating ergonomics. For cruising the islands and the Keys and SW FL, I will take 4 ft over 6 ft draft all day long, it opens up so very many places. The Hatt is 5ft and many is the time I wish I could have raised the keel and running gear a foot or so.

The GB 52 is a great boat, probably the one I'd pick if scaling down, but it is a little less sleek and 7" deeper.

 

[hmason]

We are beginning our 4th year as live aboards, on our GB 46 Europa. We love the boat find it real comfortable. We have cruised her over 7,500 nm and have always felt secure in even the worst conditions we've encountered off shore. She has twin Cat 3116s, 350 hp each. They have run flawlessly for over 3,700 hours.

The engine room is almost stand-up for my 5'8" height and is accessed thru a door in the aft storage room (not the lazzarette). There is no lifting of stairs. If you need more detailed info., just ask away. And, we carry an 11' Boston Whaler with a 25hp 4 stroke on the boat deck with no stability issues at all, even in beam seas. Howard

 

[PhysicsTeacher]

We are beginning our 4th year as live aboards, on our GB 46 Europa. We love the boat find it real comfortable. We have cruised her over 7,500 nm and have always felt secure in even the worst conditions we've encountered off shore. She has twin Cat 3116s, 350 hp each. They have run flawlessly for over 3,700 hours.

The engine room is almost stand-up for my 5'8" height and is accessed thru a door in the aft storage room (not the lazzarette). There is no lifting of stairs. If you need more detailed info., just ask away. And, we carry an 11' Boston Whaler with a 25hp 4 stroke on the boat deck with no stability issues at all, even in beam seas.

Thanks,

I'll check it out.

Bob

 

[twistedtree]

The GB 47 Europa is the model I know best since I have one. Draft is 3'10" (I think of it as 4'), and I've been through the NY and Canadian canal systems so know it has low enough air draft. The ER is definitely NOT stand up unless you are a lot shorter than I am (6'3"), but I get around it just fine, including reaching the back sides of both engines. Access is via one of two paths. The primary is via lift up stairs from the cockpit to the fly bridge. Going in that way doesn't impinge on anyone or any part of the interior space, and with the side overhand and boat deck as protection from weather, outside access is not a problem. The alternate access path is via a hatch in the salon/galley area and down a small ladder. I always go in via the cock pit.

The newer 52 (might be a 54 now) Europa might have a higher ER ceiling, but you would be talking about a significant jump in $$ for those models.

 

[markpierce]

I can stand up in my engine "room"/compartment, but my head will be well into the pilothouse. Here, sitting on the battery box:

Having a walk-in/stand-up engine room (no doubt a highly desirable feature but at what cost?) requires either a very large boat or a boat with a high vertical outline very subject to winds.

 

[PhysicsTeacher]

Having a walk-in/stand-up engine room (no doubt a highly desirable feature but at what cost?) requires either a very large boat or a boat with a high vertical outline very subject to winds.

I guess that depends on your definition of "very large." The Krogen Express is 49'-52', and a little over 20 tons. It most definitely does not feature a high vertical outline.