American Tug vs Helmsman

[phillippeterson]

Hi. Would love to hear opinions on American Tug vs Helmsman.

I see AT was just bought by Kadey Krogen. Wondering how that acquisition affects things.

 

[phillippeterson]

Oops. I see a relevant thread was already started. How do I delete this thread?

 

[twistedtree]

Oops. I see a relevant thread was already started. How do I delete this thread?

I think the comparison part of the question is very relevant. I'm be interested to hear from people who considered both, or who are familiar with both.

 

[FWT]

The companies?

Or boats?

Which ones?

 

[sunchaser]

Let’s start with the biggest difference. Helmsman are made in China and AT in Washington. Forget for a moment about the politics but focus on long term advice and service. One can face to face talk to the guys who designed and built your boat. Having toured the AT factory and been on the larger ones I’m impressed with the build quality,

So how important is this NA build aspect? Apparently for KK very important.

 

[twistedtree]

The companies?

Or boats?

Which ones?

The OP asked for comparisons between Helmsmans and American Tugs.

 

[Benthic2]

I would think the "used vs new" distinction would be important. The communication and accomodation experience would be hugely significant during the build process but may not be all that relevant once the boat is 5 years old.

 

[sunchaser]

I would think the "used vs new" distinction would be important. The communication and accomodation experience would be hugely significant during the build process but may not be all that relevant once the boat is 5 years old.

Possibly on the used market a Q&A session with the designer and.builder would prove quite helpful. AT told me they keep a very thick file on each build which could theoretically prove advantageous.

But, Helmsman has proven quite helpful in this regard too so we’ve heard on TF.

 

[FWT]

The OP asked for comparisons between Helmsmans and American Tugs.

Well, with Helmsman the 31 is very different from the other models. Then there is the H37 now modified to the H38 Sedan. Then there is the H38, a different boat atop the same hull as the H38. Then there is the 43 which adds space and second cabin.

The comparisons to AT's would be a different discussion

 

[DDW]

The fundamental question is will KK continue to build the AT in Washington? They build their other boats in the East now don't they? The Dana Point builds were long ago.

An acquisition like this is usually good for the owners, who are cashing out, and not so good for everyone else.

 

[twistedtree]

The fundamental question is will KK continue to build the AT in Washington? They build their other boats in the East now don't they? The Dana Point builds were long ago.

An acquisition like this is usually good for the owners, who are cashing out, and not so good for everyone else.

I think the KKs are, and always have been build is Kaohsiung, Taiwan.


But I took the OP's question to be about comparing the boats, not the builders. But maybe that's not what was intended. Maybe the OP can restate his question?

 

[DDW]

Early KKs were built in Dana Point, California. You could say it is hard to compete building boats in the USA, but AT currently has 2.5 years backlog on the books, so I guess it isn't all that hard.

Myself, all things being equal, would prefer a USA build if only because you could keep eyes on it. But of course all things are never equal.

 

[Nick14]

From my perspective AT and Helmsman have many similarities, such as size of many offerings, and also differences.

Many of their boats are roughly equivalent in size - AT39 to Helmsman 38, AT41/435 to Helmsman 43, AT 485 to Helmsman 46.

AT uses a hard chine semi-displacement hull on the 34 (365) and 39, capable of speeds into the low 20 knot range. The 41 (435) and 46 (485) somewhat less so.

Helmsman uses a soft-chine design with a deeper forefoot, also a semi-displacement hull capable of double-digit speeds but I think more on the displacement side than AT's leaning more to planing.

AT builds all pilothouse designs, as are most of Helmsman's models but they also offer the 38 Sedan and upcoming 43 Sedan with full walk-around decks, along the lines of the old Grand Banks Europa.

Others have commented on Helmsman being built in China and AT in Washington, which as a result makes them much more expensive.

 

[OldDan1943]

In the Stuart area, there are existing build yards. Not knowing the names nor quality of the yards…. that is a decision made by someone more important than me.

 

[Snapdragon III]

I like the look of the American tugs better than the Helmsman. Toured an AT at the Anacortes boat show yesterday and was very impressed. Haven't been on a helmsman in a couple years, but I am sure they are great boats too.

 

[firehoser75]

When boat shopping (and finally deciding on our NT 37 Pilitak), we looked at Helmsman, AT, NT, and a few others (others being irrelevant to this discussion).
Personally, I liked all three brands in comparable sizes. We looked at one Helmsman 37 (only one on the market locally at the time), but the first owner had "special ordered" a very small engine (69 HP) and I was concerned with it possibly lacking the power needed to go against head winds, and larger, local tidal currents (sometimes 5 knots - would not even attempt higher) with that HP. If it had had a bigger engine (say 125+ HP) I probably would have bought it as I liked most other things about the boat (design, features, etc.). Having only a single (sleeping) cabin, it is comparable to the AT 34. The AT 34 is a great couple's boat (occasional short stay guests) and we did offer on one of those, but unfortunately our surveyor found a major structural issue probably caused by improper "trucking" across the country.
We ended up with a 2 cabin NT 37, which for us proved to be the perfect size and layout. The NT 32/34 seemed too small for our wants/needs. However, we could have been happy with any of the 3 boats/brands.
Personally I do like the idea of American built vs "offshore" (for several reasons), but the Helmsman had good products installed and the craftsmanship and attention to detail appeared to be quite good. Both NT and AT are well designed, well constructed boats, with large followings and well proven track records, including a proven resale value (seem to hold their value well over time).
From info I have been able to gather (not first hand), it appears that Scott (at Helmsman in Seattle) does a good job of servicing and supporting his customers.
I think it really comes down to personal preference, and what is available at the time and where you are looking??
Good luck

 

[chanprr]

My 2 cents: Having looked closely at NP, NT and AT, in a search for a trawler, I couldn't find as well finished a vessel as the H38E, so I ordered one, and was extremely pleased by the quality of construction and overall performance. After two years of PNW and SE Alaska cruising, I decided to order a H46, which is due in September 2023, intending a long cruise to BC and SE Alaska in 2024.
Over this weekend in Point Hudson WA, I viewed several H38's and a couple of 43's of various vintages at the Helmsman Rendezvous. All were top quality builds with excellent fit and finish. I consider Helmsman trawlers excellent value for the money. Added to that excellent service after sale!
As firehoser75 says: it really comes down to personal preference.
Enjoy your time on the water!!

 

[phillippeterson]

Really appreciate the responses here.

Love the AT but think the H is better value even though I prefer walk around deck instead of larger width living area. Even KK has only starboard deck.

 

[Adopo]

How does Nordic Tug compare?

 

[Fletcher500]

Really appreciate the responses here.

Love the AT but think the H is better value even though I prefer walk around deck instead of larger width living area. Even KK has only starboard deck.

One of our favorite things about the boat is the full beam saloon and extra living space. We actively use the boat and live aboard for 5 months per year traveling, picking up mooring balls, spearfishing and other water sports, and I have been able to do everything without side decks and that includes a lot of solo running in and out of marinas. I thought they may be an issue before ordering it, but they have not been one after 5 years of ownership. With that said, some people prefer them and I respect their stance as well.

 

[bowball]

I like the look of the American tugs better than the Helmsman. Toured an AT at the Anacortes boat show yesterday and was very impressed. Haven't been on a helmsman in a couple years, but I am sure they are great boats too.

I really like the Helmsman and they would be on my very short list in that size. I do cringe though when I see photos of the stern though, as it looks so boxy probably to maximize volume. And I wish the act cockpit was two feet longer. Otherwise, what a great package.

 

[Hippocampus]

How does Nordic Tug compare?

Our first choice when leaving sail was a Nordhavn 43. Friends convinced me given we were no longer doing passages a SD hull made better sense. They were right. Spend a decent amount of time above hull speed. So then looked at helmsman, AT and NT. Didn’t like the helm on the H. Could see troubles motoring into a setting sun and trying to dodge detritus/ traps in the water. Got to drive/check out pilot house helm. Don’t know about fly but don’t like being up there in wet or cold. Didn’t like the ER as I do engine checks and try to do what maintenance I can. Thought the cosmetics were outstanding and a solid boat.
We put a fair amount of miles in. Although coastal not infrequently in that short unpleasant chop you see in wide, shallow bays. Believe AT and NT are just about equivalent builds. Everything to ABYC standards and solid hulls. Biggest difference is beam at each equivalent size in the the offerings. ER is still tight for me but doable but there’s a slight but noticeable difference in the ride. The thinner hull is a bit more efficient and a a bit more forgiving going directly into a head sea. Being slightly wider the AT possibly has a bit more form stability in a beam sea. Given that we restricted our search to NTs that were stabilized. Most importantly to roll where a gyro excels. As said by others cosmetics are a personal feeling. Thought the NT was prettier and so did the admiral but that has nothing to do with the quality of the boat. At least in sail some of the boats with the best cosmetics are junk. Builders know the bride picks the boat.
Now that we’re cruising been seeing a lot of the same ATs and NTs again and again hundreds of miles apart. Implies to me both are good cruising boats. This is on the east coast. Most seem well kept implying owners have an emotional attachment. Although they’re made on the west coast do see them on the east. There’s a bunch of helmsmans around Connecticut and LI sound I see. But not elsewhere. Poor sample so wouldn’t make much of it but having seen one going down nor up the ICW .
Should mention we don’t know about the new pilot house models of H. Rather the sedans.

 

[FWT]

"Although they’re made on the west coast do see them on the east. There’s a bunch of helmsmans around Connecticut and LI sound I see. But not elsewhere. Poor sample so wouldn’t make much of it but having seen one going down nor up the ICW ."

There are simply fewer Helmsman's. Period. NT and AT have been at it longer with higher production.

So good luck to anyone who wants a used one. Needle in a haystack. I wanted one, and didn't bother trying to go used.

Yes, there is a pocket of them on Long Island Sound. Another pocket on the Chesapeake. Others scattered on the eastern seaboard, but again the total number are just fewer than NT or AT. But this is changing, fast. As folks see on this site, they have been "found" by more and the build rate has climbed.

 

[FWT]

I really like the Helmsman and they would be on my very short list in that size. I do cringe though when I see photos of the stern though, as it looks so boxy probably to maximize volume. And I wish the act cockpit was two feet longer. Otherwise, what a great package.

"Fat bottom girls make the rocking world go round."

Or so goes the song.

:lol:

 

[FWT]

"And I wish the act cockpit was two feet longer. Otherwise, what a great package."

They make that. In two flavors. The 43 or the new H38 Sedan (with side decks)

 

[Helmsman]

We looked at American Tug prior to building with Helmsman. I liked the American Tug, and the build quality appeared to be good. The people at the factory were great, and they took as much time as I needed to get my questions answered. Great company.

I went with Helmsman and am glad I did. I really like the beam to beam salon, and have not found that to be an issue. I have heard AT has good service. The difference with Helmsman is that the service is personal. I know I can pick up the phone or email a message to Scott, Van, or Gary, and get a very quick, knowledgeable, honest response. The customization of the build was great throughout the build and was always a collaborative discussion. Professional, thoughtful, and open to new ideas.

Having owned a Helmsman a few months, I would buy another tomorrow, if for some reason I sold this one. The quality of the build and the continual improvements was a big selling point to me, and Helmsman didn’t disappoint. I hope an American Tug owner jumps in to provide the strengths of the AT brand. It would be interesting feedback.

 

[Hippocampus]

NT has 10 regional dealers plus the factory. Wilde (a dealer) was the co broker for us. Aftermarket advice and records as been immediate and extremely helpful. As has been the factory. NTs aftermarket’s support has been excellent. Also there’s four regional NT owners groups. They’re quite active and also a major resource. Our prior owner didn’t use the boat so we’ve been in a restoration process. You get to see it with its pants down when doing that. The bones of the boat are impressive.
Wife insisted on side decks on both sides. We went to power after she broke her ankle cruising the sailboat so balance slightly off since. I like being stern to so you don’t know if you’re going to be starboard or port tie. She’s alright going upstairs but less so going down. We eliminated the N40 for that reason. Even with dockhands she didn’t want to deal with stairs. The NT is 3 steps and has bilateral side decks. Some times when there’s no dockhands getting a mid ship line on first takes the stress off. Know once that line is on have all the time in the world to sort the rest out. Don’t understand what you get out off 1-2’ more width to salon to make it worthwhile getting rid of side decks. Most of our entertaining is outside or a mix of aft cockpit and salon. Guess my thinking hasn’t evolved from sailboat layouts. Also don’t get boats without side doors from the helm. How do you dock by yourself?

 

[rslifkin]

NT has 10 regional dealers plus the factory. Wilde (a dealer) was the co broker for us. Aftermarket advice and records as been immediate and extremely helpful. As has been the factory. NTs aftermarket’s support has been excellent. Also there’s four regional NT owners groups. They’re quite active and also a major resource. Our prior owner didn’t use the boat so we’ve been in a restoration process. You get to see it with its pants down when doing that. The bones of the boat are impressive.
Wife insisted on side decks on both sides. We went to power after she broke her ankle cruising the sailboat so balance slightly off since. I like being stern to so you don’t know if you’re going to be starboard or port tie. She’s alright going upstairs but less so going down. We eliminated the N40 for that reason. Even with dockhands she didn’t want to deal with stairs. The NT is 3 steps and has bilateral side decks. Some times when there’s no dockhands getting a mid ship line on first takes the stress off. Know once that line is on have all the time in the world to sort the rest out. Don’t understand what you get out off 1-2’ more width to salon to make it worthwhile getting rid of side decks. Most of our entertaining is outside or a mix of aft cockpit and salon. Guess my thinking hasn’t evolved from sailboat layouts. Also don’t get boats without side doors from the helm. How do you dock by yourself?

Some boats are tough to dock solo due to slow access from helm to side decks. My boat (upper aft deck helm only) is one of those. With 2 of us, it's a non-issue though, as the admiral handles lines from the side deck and I can walk from the helm to the aft deck quickly.

Line handling issues with a full beam salon vary. Some boats require a long path (such as up and back down) to get from a cockpit to the forward side decks, while others have a quick path through the salon and out the side. For that second type, there's a missing section of side deck, but you can still get forward / aft just as quickly.

 

[Fletcher500]

I generally avoid making comments about other makes of boats on web forums. We all have different use cases and things that appeal to us individually, so its best to get on the different manufacturers boats and find out what appeals to you. I will summarize how I feel about our boat: If someone dropped X dollars in my lap and said you can have it if you give me your boat and go buy a different more expensive one I would say no thank you, I will keep this one. The H43 has met our expectations on all levels and there is not another boat out there I would rather have.

 

[bowball]

I generally avoid making comments about other makes of boats on web forums. We all have different use cases and things that appeal to us individually, so its best to get on the different manufacturers boats and find out what appeals to you. I will summarize how I feel about our boat: If someone dropped X dollars in my lap and said you can have it if you give me your boat and go buy a different more expensive one I would say no thank you, I will keep this one. The H43 has met our expectations on all levels and there is not another boat out there I would rather have.

As is often said, every boat is a trade off. I think the advantages of the Helmsman far outweighs any disadvantages, IMHO. I liked the 38 I was on board of. Looking forward to seeing the 43 and 46 in person.