Angels Three Six

[BlueYonder]

The courage demonstrated by the pilots and crew of the heavy bombers over Germany was remarkable. I salute each and every one.

I don't know how they did it given the odds of completing the required missions (starting at 25 then as the need required up to 35) were less then 5%.

Greatest generation!!

Those guys were amazing! 8th Air Force alone had more killed than the entire USMC during WWII.

 

[dannc]

My co-pilot Dad's B-17G became an imperfect airplane when AAA blew a hole in the wing, knocked out the oxygen system, started a fire, and wounded most of the gunners, over Merseburg, Germany on Sept. 28, 1944. Crew all bailed out.

One of the still flying B17s flies into our area every two years for tours and fund raising. The plane was here last year and flew over the house numerous times! Hearing those four engines is awesome. The only thing better is hearing more than four. When I was in school a B17 AND a B24 were giving tours at a nearby airfield. I did not have time to get a tour but I could park near the end of the runway where both planes were warming up prior to take off. I would guess I was only a hundred feet or so from the planes and the sound was magical. You could feel the engines. Eventually, the two planes took off and buzzed the field a few times before flying off to the next show.

Even the single B17 flying over the house was awe inspiring but seeing those two old birds flying was amazing. Seeing, hearing and feeling hundreds of those planes flying overhead on a mission must have been thrilling and powerful for the allies and scary as heck to the people about to be bombed.

When the B17 visited two years ago, my oldest and I did the tour. Ground tours were free and you could fly for about $400 a person. I REALLY wish I had spent the money....

We actually went on both a Saturday and Sunday to visit the B17. We arrived early in the morning but it was summer time so it was already a bit warm and humid. I had on my camera backpack, which is rather large and I could not wear it inside the plane, even getting on the plane via the rear hatch was difficult. The sun had been up only a few hours but the plane was an oven, even wearing shorts and a polo shirt, I was quickly drenched in sweat. I can't imagine what it was like in these planes in the Pacific.

I have read about the WWII planes and history since I was in grade school but it still shocked me to see the thinness of the aluminum skin. A beer can is thinner but not by much. In Savannah GA, there is the Eighth Air Force museum right next to I95. If one is driving through Savannah, one really should spend a few hours at the museum. We have stopped several times and still need a few more visits to see it all. They have at least one Mig, an F4, and a B47 outside along with a B17 inside and some other planes.

One piece in the museum is a B17 wing section from a plane that was shot down over Belgium. Some of the crew survived being shot down and decades later, one of the crew, found that the wing of their plane had been used by a farmer to shelter animals. The crewman was able to get the wing shipped to the 8th Air Force Museum. You can walk right up to the wing and touch it which is pretty cool. What is impressive is how stout the wing is built. It is an amazing structure, even when using a thin skin of aluminum.

But that thin skin would barely stop a BB from Red Ryder BB gun.

The other thing I noticed about walking around the B17 is the tightness of the space. Like I said I could not walk around with my back pack on my back. While the mid section of the plane was not TOO bad, the tail gun was tight and getting forward across the bomb pay to the cockpit was even worse. The cockpit and forward cabin was tight tight. I can see why many of the crew to the rear of the bomb bay would abandon the plane via the bomb bay. The hatches out of the forward section of the plane were tiny tiny. How anyone bailed out of those hatches amazes me but I guess if your choice is get out or die, you find a way.

Course if your were the ball gunner, and the ball did not stop in just the right position, you were not getting out at all. I don't know how those guys climbed down into these balls. I know some died after the ball was stuck out of position and the plane had to land on its belly.

One thing is for sure. The crew on the B17 were much SMALLER than today's adults. There were many visitors who were to "large" to walk across the bomb bay walkway which has a V support that is rather narrow.

Later,
Dan

 

[tpbrady]

For those pilots in SAC, I remember reading this is the Ops Plans section:

Typical SAC mission profile: Taxi on the yellow line, takeoff on the white line, fly on the black line, refuel at the circles, turn on the squares, bomb the triangles, and land at the double circle.

Tom

 

[Wxx3]

For those pilots in SAC, I remember reading this is the Ops Plans section:

Typical SAC mission profile: Taxi on the yellow line, takeoff on the white line, fly on the black line, refuel at the circles, turn on the squares, bomb the triangles, and land at the double circle.

Tom

My time supporting SAC was an eye opener.
I'd been 4 years in USAFE basically supporting mostly F-4s and other NATO birds, so I got to know the fighter mentality.

I thought American fighter pilots were a trip, the Europeans, many flying 104s were really out there.

Then, SAC.

Very different mentality, but not worse, just different.

While the fighter pilots were hot blooded, the B52, 135 & RC 135 pilots were cold blooded.

Just as determined, but maybe in the back of their minds, they knew those 8th AF loses weren't fighters.

They also knew the difference in the war plans.

 

[dannc]

The army has a Ranger training camp near Suches, GA. That is near our mountain cabin. Training can encompass large swathes of Union and Fannin counties especially along the Toccoa River near the cabin. Lots of helicopters and planes flying around. There are some really funny stories about what happens around their training exercises. They are sent out without supplies, and are in survival mode.

The United States Army | Fort Benning

My dad and I used to go camping in the GA mountains back in the early 70s. We would see long army convoys on those trips and we would often pass through army check points on the Forest Service roads. One of our favorite places to camp was near an intersection of Forest Service roads, you took a right when you got to the intersection and saw the 120mm mortar that was left there for some reason.

The camp site was a company sized perimeter carved out of the woods and included fox holes. For some reason, there was a huge pile of saw dust in the middle of the perimeter which we liked to play on. Even better, buried in the saw dust was 7.62 brass which we loved to dig for and find.

Years later my dad and I were bear and boar hunting in the TN mountains. We were up on a ridge where I was sitting and enjoying the peace and quiet looking DOWN into the valley below. My quiet was disturbed when an F4 flew BELOW me! I could clearly see the helmets and face plates of the pilot and RO as they flew BELOW me! :lol: It was nice and quiet and then ROOOOOOOAARARRR as that F4 went by. Danged near pooed in my pants.

A few years after that, my dad and I were out on his sailboat on Key Biscayne. F16s from Homestead were making runs on us. :lol: Now they never got close, they would stack up a good distance away but we would see them peal off, and aim right at us in a shallow dive that they would hold for awhile before pulling up and repeating. It was cool I have to admit. As long as the kept pullup up that is!

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

Then, SAC.

Very different mentality, but not worse, just different.

While the fighter pilots were hot blooded, the B52, 135 & RC 135 pilots were cold blooded.

Just as determined, but maybe in the back of their minds, they knew those 8th AF loses weren't fighters.

They also knew the difference in the war plans.

We lived for a few years across the river from Barksdale AFB in LA. I could climb the pine tree in the front yard and see plane landing/taking off at Barksdale. One day a B52 flew LOW over the house, I am guessing they had some sort of emergency for him to be flying that low over the house. He was banked really tight too and making one heck of a turn to get back to the runway. The whole house was shaking and I could hear the window frames were making a heck of a racket. Never saw a B52 fly that low before or since. Impressive but scary because he was so low and loosing altitude in that turn over a built up area covered in subdivisions....

My school was a short bike ride away. I thought it was really funny that we would do Duck and Cover drills. What freaking difference would it make with a SAC base so close by? Our butts were going to get fried if those B52s starting taking off in earnest. I always wondered if the other kids knew what I knew as we played the Duck and Cover game under our desks. I think they were clueless which is a good thing.

Ironically, my oldest and a friend were really excited this week by some new music that was just release by the Fall Out Boys. I asked them if they knew what Fallout was and they did not have a clue. I THINK this is a good thing. They have never had to do Duck and Cover drills and think about what it represented. That is a good thing.

Later,
Dan

 

[Moonstruck]

Richard, while going to college in Winter Park near Orlando, I lived next door to a SAC B-47 pilot (McCoy AFB was active then). I guess that pretty well dates me. The 47 pilots were a pretty wild bunch. For the last couple of years of school, I moved up north of town. I was in the midst of a bunch of carrier pilots at Sanford Naval AS. They trained there when their carriers were in Mayport. That was the craziest bunch I have ever been around.

 

[Wxx3]

Yes.
Before I got to March AFB ,they had a Buff takeoff and lost all 4 engines on the one wing.

He climbed to eject, but as soon as he was away from the ground effect, the plane stalled and the crew was killed.

So probably that crew knew to keep it low to RTB

 

[LarryM]

I was in the midst of a bunch of carrier pilots at Sanford Naval AS. They trained there when their carriers were in Mayport. That was the craziest bunch I have ever been around.

Careful now, some of us might resemble that remark . . . . .

 

[dannc]

Richard, while going to college in Winter Park near Orlando, I lived next door to a SAC B-47 pilot (McCoy AFB was active then). I guess that pretty well dates me. The 47 pilots were a pretty wild bunch. For the last couple of years of school, I moved up north of town. I was in the midst of a bunch of carrier pilots at Sanford Naval AS. They trained there when their carriers were in Mayport. That was the craziest bunch I have ever been around.

Jeese, I can't stay out of this thread.

I am from Orlando and my parents went to school and grew up there way before the Mouse House was built. McCoy AFB, which is now Orlando International Airport with a code of MCO, used to be called Pinecastle. Pinecastle became McCoy AFB after the B47 Wing CO who was killed in a plane crash in Pine Hills.

What I did not know until recently was that the plane crashed near the old harness racing track at 441 and Lee road. I have driven by that intersection a gazillion times and did not know a plane crashed there, much less that McCoy died in the crash and gave his name to the airport.

My mother was in school, heard a boom and with the rest of her class looked out the windows to see McCoy's plane break up in midair and crash. McCoy's plane was seen flying lower than the radio/TV towers in the area before turning back to the NW away from downtown. Nobody is likely to ever know what happened to the plane but it seems that McCoy piloted that B47 into the ground. There were plenty of eye witnesses who saw the plane flying over and near multiple schools and populated areas. The plane was over/near my mother's school that is for sure. One witness said he saw the plane's nose rise so that the plane went over his school before crashing.

The crew did have ejection seats and could have punched out but they did not...

When I first started flying in/out of MCO as a kid, the base was sill open and space was shared with commercial flights. The terminal was an old hanger that I think was used for a guided missile program. Flying into MCO now is unreal given how large the airport has become compared to those old two hangers. My granny and I use to drive down watch the planes take off and land from a spot were you could park right across the road from the north end of the runway. Ya can't do that any more.

Later,
Dan

 

[markpierce]

...
The other thing I noticed about walking around the B17 is the tightness of the space. Like I said I could not walk around with my back pack on my back. While the mid section of the plane was not TOO bad, the tail gun was tight and getting forward across the bomb pay to the cockpit was even worse. The cockpit and forward cabin was tight tight. I can see why many of the crew to the rear of the bomb bay would abandon the plane via the bomb bay. The hatches out of the forward section of the plane were tiny tiny. How anyone bailed out of those hatches amazes me but I guess if your choice is get out or die, you find a way.

...

The crew on my Dad's B-17 favored jumping from the bomb bay. The last three people on the plane were Dad, the pilot, and a waist gunner. The gunner refused orders to bail, so Dad jumped next. The gunner (suffering minor face, head, and leg wounds) refused to jump until everyone else had, jumping immediately after the pilot. The pilot jumped from the forward compartment's hatch following the gunner's physical exhortations. The gunner later said he had often seen the pilot getting stuck between the two pilot seats.

Earlier, the crew assisted the badly-injured radio operator (Sgt. Robert C. Breiling), having to set a static line for opening the parachute. (The plane's fire was in the radio compartment.) He later died from wounds in February 1945, over four months subsequent.

 

[dannc]

The most decorated flight crew was on a B17 that fought in the Pacific and not in Europe. The pilot and bombardier were awarded Medal of Honors and the other seven crew members received Distinguished Service Crosses plus some Purple Hearts. Two MOHs and seven DSCs in one flight crew from one flight!

This is a long read but well worth it, Wings of Valor II- Jay Zeamer and Joseph Sarnoski.

They went on a suicide mission but somehow made it back. The plane's number was 666.

If someone made a movie with what these men did, it would not be believed. History is full of events like this where people did things that really were impossible, yet somehow, the people made them possible.

Later,
Dan

 

[Wxx3]

The most decorated flight crew was on a B17 that fought in the Pacific and not in Europe. The pilot and bombardier were awarded Medal of Honors and the other seven crew members received Distinguished Service Crosses plus some Purple Hearts. Two MOHs and seven DSCs in one flight crew from one flight!

This is a long read but well worth it, Wings of Valor II- Jay Zeamer and Joseph Sarnoski.

They went on a suicide mission but somehow made it back. The plane's number was 666.

If someone made a movie with what these men did, it would not be believed. History is full of events like this where people did things that really were impossible, yet somehow, the people made them possible.

Later,
Dan

Interesting. I must admit, like many, I have let Hollywood's depiction of of the air war color my views, but having said that when did Air Command and Staff College, I was amazed at the number of readings of studies that basically showed that the strategic bombing in europe was a waste of resources, manpower and lives.

In spite of the movies, the Germans were making more ball bearings at the end of the war then in the beginning.

Tactical Air Support won the war in both Asia and Europe.

But the Air Force after WW2 had a lot of leaders who made their bones on the Strategic Air Campaign and thus they wrote the history.

 

[ghost]

Neatest B-17 I ever saw was from underwater. I had just completed one of my first dives in Lake Washington on a sunken PB4Y Privateer, which they had a squadron of at Sandpoint. This one had crashed on takeoff, straight into the Lake. It's a neat WWII era 4 engined bomber, though they entered service too late to be of much note. It was a rather cool plane to visit as the guns were still mounted in the nose and if I remember right in the waist. Anyhow, after an extended decompression due to the cold on the lake bottom, I had just finished my oxygen stops and was looking up at about 15 feet below the surface. the water was clear enough that I could make out a plane flying over. A four engined plane. Just as I surfaced, it became clear I was watching a B-17 going directly overhead. To see one flying, just then, really highlighted the whole experience.

Timing is everything.

 

[Fighterpilot]

I understand the Navy carrier pilot crazy comment. 2000 hrs in the Navy's F8 Crusader, the first truly supersonic Jet. 5 carrier deployments, two to Tonkin Gulf. 499 normal carrier landings and 1 into the barricade since I was missing one main gear. 200 mission over Vietnam which I try not to remember. That was the old Navy, however, 1955 to 1975.

 

[Moonstruck]

I understand the Navy carrier pilot crazy comment. 2000 hrs in the Navy's F8 Crusader, the first truly supersonic Jet. 5 carrier deployments, two to Tonkin Gulf. 499 normal carrier landings and 1 into the barricade since I was missing one main gear. 200 mission over Vietnam which I try not to remember. That was the old Navy, however, 1955 to 1975.

Oh man!!!!!! You've been there FP. We all owe you a debt and a tip of the hat. No matter how anyone feels about Vietnam. Nothing can take away from the courage, valor and sacrifice that was almost an everyday occurrence.

 

[Fighterpilot]

Navy Carrier pilots

Thanks for your thoughts, and 50,000 plus others that didn't make it also thank you.

 

[Wxx3]

Oh man!!!!!! You've been there FP. We all owe you a debt and a tip of the hat. No matter how anyone feels about Vietnam. Nothing can take away from the courage, valor and sacrifice that was almost an everyday occurrence.

Ditto.

Thank you.

In another book I've read, they touched on the F8 and what a hot bird it was.

 

[LarryM]

Thanks for your thoughts, and 50,000 plus others that didn't make it also thank you.

+1 Gunfighter. From your avitar I'm guessing you were VF-84 Jolly Rogers and that's an F8-C, off the Independence? I was an attack guy, A-4E, VA-55 Warhorses off the Hanna. Before we deployed, we studied the 7000 strikes your air wing did up North in only 100 days on Yankee Station, absolutely outstanding. Bravo Zulu and forever Fear the Bones!

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Ditto.

Thank you.

In another book I've read, they touched on the F8 and what a hot bird it was.

From what I have been told a great A/C

Last of the Gunfighters.

Designed for air to air combat, period.

Before Bob McNamara and the whiz kids screwed things up.

 

[FlyWright]

Oh man!!!!!! You've been there FP. We all owe you a debt and a tip of the hat. No matter how anyone feels about Vietnam. Nothing can take away from the courage, valor and sacrifice that was almost an everyday occurrence.

Ditto and Bravo Zulu, FP! We're fortunate to have men like you on the leading edge. Thanks for your service to us all.

 

[Fighterpilot]

First sqd. was the Jolly Rogers with the "new" F8C. Second sqd. was VF 191 Satan's Kittens off the Tico in the Tonking Gulf.

 

[dannc]

I finished Angels Three Six which was a good read. Amazon then recommended Recollections of a Marine Attack Pilot which I am now reading.

In Recollections, the author mentions two videos that are really recordings from Suafley Field in 1953. Four instructor pilots pretend to be student pilots to mess with the flight instructor.

Have TF pilots heard this? Anyway, I thought it was pretty danged funny.

Its two videos,

I had to find out more information about this and found this page, 1953 Naval Aviation Classic‏

Later,
Dan

 

[LarryM]

Dan,

I had not heard this before. I am absolutely in tears! Sending it to all of my former squadron-mates now.

Thanks!

 

[siestakey]

I finished Angels Three Six which was a good read. Amazon then recommended Recollections of a Marine Attack Pilot which I am now reading.

In Recollections, the author mentions two videos that are really recordings from Suafley Field in 1953. Four instructor pilots pretend to be student pilots to mess with the flight instructor.

Have TF pilots heard this? Anyway, I thought it was pretty danged funny.

Its two videos,

I had to find out more information about this and found this page, 1953 Naval Aviation Classic‏

Later,
Dan

WOW oh so funny

 

[THD]

FP-I was USMC Air Wing-69-73, VMF 225 flying back seat in F4-Js. About 1970, at Cherry Point, NC, we had a cross training program with the USAF F-4s. We were supposed to teach them how to land on a carrier! We did carrier quals on land at Bogue Field,, had a full catapult and arresting gear for them to learn on before we did it on the carrier. It was absolutely hysterical to watch those guys. They just could not get used to bringing the aircraft in 75-100 feet off the ground and just dropping on a wire. As you know, on the cat-head back, feet against the base of the seat, hands holding on to something. One of their guys held on to the "D-Ring" between his legs and ejected himself on takeoff! Fortunately, not killed, but some serious back problems. Lots of chatter on the radio about what a carrier looked like from about 3,000 feet as a place to land!

 

[Moonstruck]

FP-I was USMC Air Wing-69-73, VMF 225 flying back seat in F4-Js. About 1970, at Cherry Point, NC, we had a cross training program with the USAF F-4s. We were supposed to teach them how to land on a carrier! We did carrier quals on land at Bogue Field,, had a full catapult and arresting gear for them to learn on before we did it on the carrier. It was absolutely hysterical to watch those guys. They just could not get used to bringing the aircraft in 75-100 feet off the ground and just dropping on a wire. As you know, on the cat-head back, feet against the base of the seat, hands holding on to something. One of their guys held on to the "D-Ring" between his legs and ejected himself on takeoff! Fortunately, not killed, but some serious back problems. Lots of chatter on the radio about what a carrier looked like from about 3,000 feet as a place to land!

Was Gen. Dick Kuci commander at Cherry Point MCAS while you were there? Dick lived about 2 doors down from my last home. In fact, I built the home he and his wife live in. I have talked with him several times about his days at Cherry Point and flying Marine 1 for Nixon. A close friend still living near him reports that Dick has some health problems. He is an interesting guy.

Maybe you even fished the Marine Corps boat the Tripoli and MCYB. Delmas Willis was the captain. For several years we had a slip opposite.

 

[janice142]

I had not heard this before. I am absolutely in tears! Sending it to all of my former squadron-mates now.

There is a book by USN Rear Admiral Daniel V. Gallery Jr. that details this. It's called Clear the Decks. Well worth the read, as are all his books. Adm. Gallery was the leader of the task force that captured the German submarine U-505 that is now on display in Chicago.

Someday I'd love to see that boat in person. I was "right there" (reading) the capture.

If you like rolicking navy stories with a breath of truth stretched, well, I've enjoyed them. He was one of my first favorite authors.

 

[FBoykin]

Re: Dan Gallery

I've read his books too! Well worth tracking down. I'm also a fan of steel drum music. Admiral Gallery commanded the Naval district in the Carribean back in the 50's & started a Navy steel drum band that was quite a hit. From stories I've found online, it sounds like it was an enjoyable time for all. Due to health reasons, I believe he ultimately resigned, but the band was moved to New Orleans & played on for a numbers of years. They were quite popular.

Legend has it that he was the last US Navy Captain to give the command "Away all boarders" when he & his crew captured the U boat. The leader of the boarding party received the Medal of Honor & Gallery was very instrumental in getting the sub to Chicago.

 

[janice142]

Back when I was selling books, the museum bought a First Edition of U-505 from me. I had a newspaper article about the engineer (the one that shut the valves on the sub so she wouldn't sink) -- anyway, there was an article about his passing and I tucked it into the package for the museum. I thought they'd want it too.

There was no acknowledgement so I've often wondered if when the parcel was opened, if the paper was thrown away inadvertently. They might have considered it packing. The Miami Herald (or Fort Lauderdale News -- we subscribed to both, along with the Hollywood rag) had quite a write-up about him.

He was a true American hero.

Last year I re-read the Gallery's I have aboard Seaweed. They were still good though dated. I wished there had been another book, featuring the hot-shot flyer. Wigglesworth was his name as I recall.

Enough reminiscing from me. I enjoy reading and his Cap'n Fatso? Well, it still makes me smile.