Another new start for Helmsman

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

We’re not out in the wilds of B.C. or Alaska but we’re having a great time doing a cruise with friends to Oak Harbor, Everett, Poulsbo, Bremerton and Kingston. We had a little wind on the dock in Oak Harbor last night so we moved a potluck dinner aboard Alba Bella. We had a comfortable sit down dinner for ten in the salon and pilothouse. What an amazingly accommodating boat.

Sounds like a record to beat! We haven't seen 10 people in 3 weeks. Send a pic on Helms in the wild. Good to hear your crusin.

 

[Doug_Snider]

While out on our first extended cruise, we developed a problem with our port side pilot house door not opening. I sent an email to Van Helker asking if he had any suggestions. He promptly replied with a request for our itinerary. We told him our next stop was Poulsbo. Shortly after we docked in Poulsbo, Van arrived and promptly diagnosed the problem as a loose screw. He reset the screw with Loctite and proceeded to aplly the same treatment to the other two sliding doors.

Our fellow cruisers were blown away at the product support we received. Helmsman envy is growing.

 

[chanprr]

While out on our first extended cruise, we developed a problem with our port side pilot house door not opening. I sent an email to Van Helker asking if he had any suggestions. He promptly replied with a request for our itinerary. We told him our next stop was Poulsbo. Shortly after we docked in Poulsbo, Van arrived and promptly diagnosed the problem as a loose screw. He reset the screw with Loctite and proceeded to aplly the same treatment to the other two sliding doors.

Our fellow cruisers were blown away at the product support we received. Helmsman envy is growing.

Doug: And that’s the reason why I am getting another Helmsman trawler

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Doug: And that’s the reason why I am getting another Helmsman trawler

I would too, let me wear this one out first - if that's possible.

We are living it. At 172 engine hours in remote BC, we cherish our Starlink.

About 3 weeks ago in discovery islands, Scott and Van both came to the rescue via concall, email within minutes. I couldn't figure out how to get hot water from the engine loop. One valve was closed that needed to be opened - fixed. Plus a lesson on summer valves.

Yesterday, I found the small vacuum gauge device in the bilge - a text reply in minutes and I returned it to the proper location on the Cummins aircleaner after they told me its location after it spun off - fixed.

Answers all within minutes of the ask a passion to help and teach their customers.

The only complaint I have is the storage. Too many places to put things - even with my boat storage map, it took me 3 days to find my favorite expresso cups in a drawer I didn't know existed - not sure how it got there.

Now I get a hot shower after the hot frothy latte watching the sun come up over the mountains.

Life is good.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Hi,
This is a follow-up discussion regarding the diesel oil change intervals in regard to ULSD use.

As you might know, I am and will be religious about maintaining my new Helmsman to the “T” (capital T).

After hours of research and corresponding with a few folks in the marine industry, it appears that the oil change duration of question may be the difference between diesel with sulfur and ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) with it’s reduction in sulfur acids. I can only speculate the reasoning for increasing the length of oil change duration (2x) as prescribed by Cummins as there is no explanation in the manual; however, multiple references discuss oil formations and acid reductions in the ULSD fuel.

The oil change durations are either 250 hours or 500 hours if using ULSD or 1 year whichever comes first, I’ve found nothing through my contacts or on the web regarding the direct correlation between ULSD and oil change durations as Cummins claims.

However, I have found a few articles describing ULSD and the reduction of acids that corrode the engines. That being ULSD significantly reduces the sulfuric acid in the fuel, thus eliminating the use of detergents in engine oils of the past and today’s oils are formulated to address remaining acids.

While I have not found anything related to the direct correlation of ULSD and the extended life of lubricating oil.

I have searched for hours on this subject. The best two links I found are:

1. ULSD and lubricating oil chemistry formulations, acids and impact
How Sulfur Content in Diesel Fuel Impacts Engine Oil Formulation (lubrizol.com)
https://360.lubrizol.com/2019/How-S...n#New Types of Oil Formulation For ULSD Fuels​

2. Discussions on variables to consider for oil changes:
Cummins Diesel 6.7L Engine Oil Change Interval [Avoid Costly Repairs] - XL Mechanical Service Ltd.​

Other related links:

https://xlmec

​

hanicalservice.ca/technical-info/cummins-oil-change-interval/​

In my queries via conversations and emails from supporting folks and viewpoints:

1. Van referred to follow the manual for maintenance.

2. Contacted Cummins Everett Rep and he cut and pasted the same paragraph from the manual but then said change at 250 hours and 500 hours thereafter.

3. Mike Beemer Department Tech Chair from Skagit Valley College a Diesel guru which I took diesel classes from didn’t define the difference with ULSD, but knows that cruisers in the NW put on 400-500 hours per year and change oil once a year. In 15-20 years, he hasn’t seen a problem with that schedule.

4. Tony Athens (very passionate Diesel expert and consultant) found the spec interesting (I think surprised) but wasn’t in a position to comment on the reasoning or chemistry etc. While he believes Cummins would have tested this out, he remains vigilant to change at 250. Also big on making the engine room spotless as clean air intake is a big factor to the length of the life of the oil. He did mention 2 years though if only 100 hours.

5. I have contacted Cummins online and asked if the Engineering Team could explain the differences. If I hear back, I’ll make the last update on this subject.

Bottom line, I believe if I follow the script, I should be good and covered under warranty. So, I think I’ll do the 250 hours remotely and then again every 250 hours instead of 500. That’s cheap insurance for an expensive engine. I think I will also send in an oil sample to Blackstone for as cheap $35 once a year. As well as the tranny oil. Look up Blackstone Laboratories (blackstone-labs.com)

I also saw several good arguments to change the oil before it’s stored for the winter rather than after bringing it out of storage. Basically, it will have acids in it, and will be fresh the next spring if not run. If closeif tad over 250, I'll change when I get back.

Let me know if you have a different strategy or understanding why Cummins would 2x if ULSD..

Tom

Also If you cant open the ULSD sulfur content, here’s a short cut n paste below:

Diesel fuel contains sulfur which derives from the original crude oil source and can still be present after refining. After combustion in the engine, the sulfur in fuel forms particulates that are a primary contributor to air pollution and the cause of harmful corrosion in the engine.
Before global efforts to improve air quality and remove sulfur from fuel, high levels of detergent additives were a necessary component of engine oil to protect engine parts from the damage caused by sulfur. Detergency was so important that a common way to interpret engine oil performance or oil life was by measuring the level of detergents in an oil by the total base number (TBN).
Regulations to reduce vehicle emissions over the past several decades have dramatically reduced the allowable sulfur content in diesel fuel. Today, sulfur content in diesel fuel in both the United States and Mexico is 97% lower than seen throughout most of the 20th century. This type of fuel is commonly referred to as ultra-low sulfur diesel, or ULSD.
Impact of Sulfur on Engine Hardware
After combustion, sulfur from diesel fuel creates sulfuric acid that causes corrosive wear on the metal surfaces of an engine. Corrosion of a surface within in a dynamic system such as the cylinder wall/liner can lead to corrosive wear; surface corrosion layers are removed through sliding or abrasion.
All acids formed within the engine have the potential to cause corrosion, but the risk of corrosion depends on their acidity. The acidity of a fluid is measured according to the mixture’s “pH”. Both the concentration (amount) of acid present, and the strength of the acids in the mixture, will increase the risk of corrosion.
There are three main types of acids that form in an engine:
• Sulfur acids are strong acids that form from combustion of fuel containing sulfur. When high sulfur fuel is used, sulfuric acids are the most significant corrosive acids.
• Nitrogen acids are strong acids that form from nitrogen oxides that result during lean combustion (a process referred to as “nitration”).
• Organic acids are weaker acids that form from partial combustion of the hydrocarbon fuel, or decomposition of the engine oil (processes referred to as “oxidation”).
New Types of Oil Formulation for ULSD Fuels
Fuel quality, including fuel sulfur levels, plays a big role in the requirement of the engine oil. Fuel quality can impact engine hardware, so the oil must be formulated to protect against these impacts. Using the correct measure for the way the oil performs is therefore crucial.
The level of sulfur acids created by today’s ULSD fuel are so low that the need for elevated levels of detergents that produce high TBN no longer exists. Instead, protection against organic acid corrosion has become a more necessary requirement of modern engine oil.
Preventing organic acid corrosion with today’s ULSD fuel requires engine oil formulations with a complex mix of detergent, antioxidant, and corrosion inhibitor additives to achieve optimum performance. Using an appropriate measurement for the way modern oils perform is a new best practice in oil condition monitoring.​

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

2nd freezer

We are Hull #52! So excited! It will be fun to follow your journey! Our vessel’s home port will be Kingston Washington. Looking forward to making your acquaintance! Also interested in where the extra freezer is going! Congrats!

Interesting to think one of the first things I stressed over was finding the perfect 2nd freezer. We need organic vegis and meats and specifics for a diet you cant easily get in the inside passage. I order this days before we left on the trip....

After many hours of reviewing reviews, I ended up with a 75 Liter E-kooler from Massimo that works for my application.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B091BFQGHP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It works well from it's dimensions to slip into the place in our 38 where a genset would go. I had Scott put in a 12volt cig female plug and there is also a 120 volt plug as well. Not sure when I will use the 120 volt. The 12 volt works fine.

It also has rolling wheels which makes it easy to pull out. I need to slop in a 2x2 frame to hold it in place so it doesn't roll. I'll rebuild it when I get back.

The unit has two compartments either side can be a freezer about 0 degrees or frig up to 58 deg.

Pros:
1) It fits and uses space efficiently
2) It has two chambers you can control from <0 to 58 deg
3) Runs on either 12 or 120 volt
4) Quiet
6) Draws about 40 watts +/-
7) Built-in li battery for 7 hours
8) LED lightling
9) works perfectly as a step into and out of the "garage"

Cons:
1) The advertisements is a bit off (dimensions, BT app, (and no batter on the 62L which I returned) the android BT link app doesn't work - hasn't been updated in years
2) Appears to be a rebranding of a unit actually made from someone else - I can see the exact unit, different colors different brands elsewhere - if this matters.
3) Dimensions on the advertisement (2 months ago) does not include the handle and wheels, thus doesn't fit on the stern cockpit very well. For that unit consider the smaller 62L unit (it doesn't not come with the battery as advertised)

Pros are worth the cons. Currently at ~ 1,200 hours of use both as a freezer and frig)

Pics are right side up and sideways, but you get it. Pick up, slide out, put the fish in, slide back in.

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Tom. That is a nice freezer fridge combo. How big a draw on your batteries overnight or while on the hook?

 

[twistedtree]

Hi,
This is a follow-up discussion regarding the diesel oil change intervals in regard to ULSD use.

As you might know, I am and will be religious about maintaining my new Helmsman to the “T” (capital T).

After hours of research and corresponding with a few folks in the marine industry, it appears that the oil change duration of question may be the difference between diesel with sulfur and ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) with it’s reduction in sulfur acids. I can only speculate the reasoning for increasing the length of oil change duration (2x) as prescribed by Cummins as there is no explanation in the manual; however, multiple references discuss oil formations and acid reductions in the ULSD fuel.

The oil change durations are either 250 hours or 500 hours if using ULSD or 1 year whichever comes first, I’ve found nothing through my contacts or on the web regarding the direct correlation between ULSD and oil change durations as Cummins claims.

However, I have found a few articles describing ULSD and the reduction of acids that corrode the engines. That being ULSD significantly reduces the sulfuric acid in the fuel, thus eliminating the use of detergents in engine oils of the past and today’s oils are formulated to address remaining acids.

While I have not found anything related to the direct correlation of ULSD and the extended life of lubricating oil.

I have searched for hours on this subject. The best two links I found are:

1. ULSD and lubricating oil chemistry formulations, acids and impact
How Sulfur Content in Diesel Fuel Impacts Engine Oil Formulation (lubrizol.com)
https://360.lubrizol.com/2019/How-S...n#New Types of Oil Formulation For ULSD Fuels​

2. Discussions on variables to consider for oil changes:
Cummins Diesel 6.7L Engine Oil Change Interval [Avoid Costly Repairs] - XL Mechanical Service Ltd.​

Other related links:

https://xlmechanicalservice.ca/technical-info/cummins-oil-change-interval/​

In my queries via conversations and emails from supporting folks and viewpoints:

1. Van referred to follow the manual for maintenance.

2. Contacted Cummins Everett Rep and he cut and pasted the same paragraph from the manual but then said change at 250 hours and 500 hours thereafter.

3. Mike Beemer Department Tech Chair from Skagit Valley College a Diesel guru which I took diesel classes from didn’t define the difference with ULSD, but knows that cruisers in the NW put on 400-500 hours per year and change oil once a year. In 15-20 years, he hasn’t seen a problem with that schedule.

4. Tony Athens (very passionate Diesel expert and consultant) found the spec interesting (I think surprised) but wasn’t in a position to comment on the reasoning or chemistry etc. While he believes Cummins would have tested this out, he remains vigilant to change at 250. Also big on making the engine room spotless as clean air intake is a big factor to the length of the life of the oil. He did mention 2 years though if only 100 hours.

5. I have contacted Cummins online and asked if the Engineering Team could explain the differences. If I hear back, I’ll make the last update on this subject.

Bottom line, I believe if I follow the script, I should be good and covered under warranty. So, I think I’ll do the 250 hours remotely and then again every 250 hours instead of 500. That’s cheap insurance for an expensive engine. I think I will also send in an oil sample to Blackstone for as cheap $35 once a year. As well as the tranny oil. Look up Blackstone Laboratories (blackstone-labs.com)

I also saw several good arguments to change the oil before it’s stored for the winter rather than after bringing it out of storage. Basically, it will have acids in it, and will be fresh the next spring if not run. If closeif tad over 250, I'll change when I get back.

Let me know if you have a different strategy or understanding why Cummins would 2x if ULSD..

Tom

Also If you cant open the ULSD sulfur content, here’s a short cut n paste below:

Diesel fuel contains sulfur which derives from the original crude oil source and can still be present after refining. After combustion in the engine, the sulfur in fuel forms particulates that are a primary contributor to air pollution and the cause of harmful corrosion in the engine.
Before global efforts to improve air quality and remove sulfur from fuel, high levels of detergent additives were a necessary component of engine oil to protect engine parts from the damage caused by sulfur. Detergency was so important that a common way to interpret engine oil performance or oil life was by measuring the level of detergents in an oil by the total base number (TBN).
Regulations to reduce vehicle emissions over the past several decades have dramatically reduced the allowable sulfur content in diesel fuel. Today, sulfur content in diesel fuel in both the United States and Mexico is 97% lower than seen throughout most of the 20th century. This type of fuel is commonly referred to as ultra-low sulfur diesel, or ULSD.
Impact of Sulfur on Engine Hardware
After combustion, sulfur from diesel fuel creates sulfuric acid that causes corrosive wear on the metal surfaces of an engine. Corrosion of a surface within in a dynamic system such as the cylinder wall/liner can lead to corrosive wear; surface corrosion layers are removed through sliding or abrasion.
All acids formed within the engine have the potential to cause corrosion, but the risk of corrosion depends on their acidity. The acidity of a fluid is measured according to the mixture’s “pH”. Both the concentration (amount) of acid present, and the strength of the acids in the mixture, will increase the risk of corrosion.
There are three main types of acids that form in an engine:
• Sulfur acids are strong acids that form from combustion of fuel containing sulfur. When high sulfur fuel is used, sulfuric acids are the most significant corrosive acids.
• Nitrogen acids are strong acids that form from nitrogen oxides that result during lean combustion (a process referred to as “nitration”).
• Organic acids are weaker acids that form from partial combustion of the hydrocarbon fuel, or decomposition of the engine oil (processes referred to as “oxidation”).
New Types of Oil Formulation for ULSD Fuels
Fuel quality, including fuel sulfur levels, plays a big role in the requirement of the engine oil. Fuel quality can impact engine hardware, so the oil must be formulated to protect against these impacts. Using the correct measure for the way the oil performs is therefore crucial.
The level of sulfur acids created by today’s ULSD fuel are so low that the need for elevated levels of detergents that produce high TBN no longer exists. Instead, protection against organic acid corrosion has become a more necessary requirement of modern engine oil.
Preventing organic acid corrosion with today’s ULSD fuel requires engine oil formulations with a complex mix of detergent, antioxidant, and corrosion inhibitor additives to achieve optimum performance. Using an appropriate measurement for the way modern oils perform is a new best practice in oil condition monitoring.​

I have a pretty basic view on this. Just do what the manufacturer say for change intervals, and oil specs. Beyond that, find something else to worry about or to occupy your time. Engines don't fail because the change interval was off a bit, or someone picked one brand of oil over another. It simply doesn't happen, ever. And do what the manufacturer says, not some "expert". You can't prove a negative, so the experience of the 100 year old diesel expert who has been doing this for 150 years really doesn't tell you anything.


If you are looking for something to focus on, really learn the navigation rules, or learn how to fully use a radar, or learn more about weather patterns and forecasting. Those will serve you MUCH better while cruising than fretting over oil changes.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Tom. That is a nice freezer fridge combo. How big a draw on your batteries overnight or while on the hook?

Hard to tell but appears to be about 50 watts.
Observations:
With everything else off, with it on, it's about 45-55 watts draw on the display, BUT I have it in econ mode and Medium power whatever that all means - one other con is a manual which doesn't really deep dive on specifics. A little guessing here and there, but again, it works.

The other thing is the amp draw on the DC meter CONTINUOUSLY bounces about 5 amps when its on. I don't think this is an issue, but I'm not sure why. As if it's not a constant draw or some sine wave impurity (Im a ME not a EE). I haven't researched this yet but since it has both 12 and 120v options my guess is it has its own inverter on board and it probably isn't pure sine wave.

For another long writeup - my power design budget was for 4 nights on the hook in Alaska summer (long days of sun with 50% clouds. You need a bit of sunshine but we've been able to do this without a generator. 2 solars, 5 batts, no gen. 2 frig/freezers/latte machine/starlink and a bunch of little draws like chargers, pumps, a light here and there. Rarely any heat. and if its cloudy we'd be down to 12.1-12.2 on the 4th morning being on the hook. I don't want to go any lower than that and if so I can I'll start the engine and let it run for a hour or so..

Now with 46 days of hard cruising and a couple of times plugged in, we've been fine. I do kinda wish I had pursued and invested in the Lithium solution had I'd known more knowing the vessel lead time (covide days) was.

I'm not spending as much time worrying about the batteries but it takes weeks in different conditions to feel it out. Of course I've got a whole spreadsheet log on that too.

I currently don't regret not buying the gen set, but I do wish I brought my suitcase-size yamaha 2k gen with me. It'd give me an idea of it's value and use.

So back to your question. ~50 watts sound low but that's what I think I see. I planned on 4 nights prior to a engine start, I'm there but if it's a hard 4 day rain I probably wont make it.

I believe the frig also changes when it see <11.5 (+/-?) house volts to it's internal LI battery which is removable and then charges when it sees higher voltage from the boat. So if house gets low it will switch over to it's own battery. If I'm say down to 12.4 before bed time, I could unplug the freezer to force it to use its own 7 hour battery.

Even at that, it appears well insulated and should be good more more than 7 hours.

Before you purchase the cooler, make sure they verbally say the unit comes with the battery or it's another $200 (the didn't send one with the 62L as advertised)

Also, I'd consider getting a blanket for it since I really don't go and open it often. Just to get a few days of stuff to put in the house frig/freezer, or put that 20-pound salmon in.

The wheels were a must - if not then, then its a custom SS sliding carriage assembly.

Lastly, if you can afford to run your blowers, consider doing that once anchored or at dock to cool down the basement.

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Thanks Tom. We have been trying to think where to put a freezer in our boat that works with the genset taking up so much space. More measurements to come I suspect.



And as for the comment not to obsess about oil changes: ignore it. We, your fellow Helmsman owners, appreciate your obsessive approach to this stuff. You do the deep dives that the rest of us won't, and when we want a reference for more details, we go to you. Your spreadsheet on parts and service intervals is a frickin' gold mine for slothful types like me.



Keep the obsessive analyses coming.



Jeff


BTW: I think you might have some border collie in your DNA. Just sayin'.

 

[chanprr]

Jeff, Tom: Thanks for your posts, and for many posts from other readers. Lots of knowledge, always my gain. Having weekly discussions with Van on a broad range of 46 build and design issues. He's always forthcoming with details, explanations and updated design hard copy. Much of the updated information will be the foundation for my 46 Ops Manual, which is now two 2" binders and growing. My docs will be added to the Helmsman 46 manual when it arrives.

 

[Helmsman]

Hard to tell but appears to be about 50 watts.
Observations:
With everything else off, with it on, it's about 45-55 watts draw on the display, BUT I have it in econ mode and Medium power whatever that all means - one other con is a manual which doesn't really deep dive on specifics. A little guessing here and there, but again, it works.

The other thing is the amp draw on the DC meter CONTINUOUSLY bounces about 5 amps when its on. I don't think this is an issue, but I'm not sure why. As if it's not a constant draw or some sine wave impurity (Im a ME not a EE). I haven't researched this yet but since it has both 12 and 120v options my guess is it has its own inverter on board and it probably isn't pure sine wave.

For another long writeup - my power design budget was for 4 nights on the hook in Alaska summer (long days of sun with 50% clouds. You need a bit of sunshine but we've been able to do this without a generator. 2 solars, 5 batts, no gen. 2 frig/freezers/latte machine/starlink and a bunch of little draws like chargers, pumps, a light here and there. Rarely any heat. and if its cloudy we'd be down to 12.1-12.2 on the 4th morning being on the hook. I don't want to go any lower than that and if so I can I'll start the engine and let it run for a hour or so..

Now with 46 days of hard cruising and a couple of times plugged in, we've been fine. I do kinda wish I had pursued and invested in the Lithium solution had I'd known more knowing the vessel lead time (covide days) was.

I'm not spending as much time worrying about the batteries but it takes weeks in different conditions to feel it out. Of course I've got a whole spreadsheet log on that too.

I currently don't regret not buying the gen set, but I do wish I brought my suitcase-size yamaha 2k gen with me. It'd give me an idea of it's value and use.

So back to your question. ~50 watts sound low but that's what I think I see. I planned on 4 nights prior to a engine start, I'm there but if it's a hard 4 day rain I probably wont make it.

I believe the frig also changes when it see <11.5 (+/-?) house volts to it's internal LI battery which is removable and then charges when it sees higher voltage from the boat. So if house gets low it will switch over to it's own battery. If I'm say down to 12.4 before bed time, I could unplug the freezer to force it to use its own 7 hour battery.

Even at that, it appears well insulated and should be good more more than 7 hours.

Before you purchase the cooler, make sure they verbally say the unit comes with the battery or it's another $200 (the didn't send one with the 62L as advertised)

Also, I'd consider getting a blanket for it since I really don't go and open it often. Just to get a few days of stuff to put in the house frig/freezer, or put that 20-pound salmon in.

The wheels were a must - if not then, then its a custom SS sliding carriage assembly.

Lastly, if you can afford to run your blowers, consider doing that once anchored or at dock to cool down the basement.

I like the fridge/freezer, Tom. On Lithium, I have consulted with Jim Healy several times in the past. His articles on lithium are a good read for those who wish to dive a little more deeply into the technology for boats. He advises the ABYC group on electrical. I am linking the latest article. There are two more on his site. Worth the read!

https://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/?s=Lithium&submit=Search

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

I have a pretty basic view on this. Just do what the manufacturer say for change intervals, and oil specs. ....

If you are looking for something to focus on, really learn the navigation rules, or learn how to fully use a radar, or learn more about weather patterns and forecasting. Those will serve you MUCH better while cruising than fretting over oil changes.

Hi Peter, I agree with you. I should follow whatever the spec says. I think I gave the wrong impression I'm over-indexing on taking care of a new vessel of which replacing the engine is about the cost of a baseline corvette.

My hidden ask is if anyone understands why Cummins would double (2x) the oil duration not just a few percentage points based on USLD. I have other Diesel engines and its the first I've heard of this. Not trying to challenge it but understand it. The chemistry behind it. It'd make me feel better not going with an unexplained extension of non-maintenance from eveyones else book.. I believe I presented both sides of valid opinions.

Your opinion, rightly, is just as important.

I appreciate your input - Yes if I stop learning all the other stuff as well it wont be fun anymore. Thats why I've taken weather, radar classes in the past in seminars and courses like diesel mechanics, and will continue to do so. Otherwise, Id be spending time in storms, running into things and on the rocks between mechanical engine breakdowns.

I after reading my lengthy discussion I would agree scale and not appear to overindex..above other important education.

Thanks, Tom

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

I like the fridge/freezer, Tom. On Lithium, I have consulted with Jim Healy several times in the past. His articles on lithium are a good read for those who wish to dive a little more deeply into the technology for boats. He advises the ABYC group on electrical. I am linking the latest article. There are two more on his site. Worth the read!

https://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/?s=Lithium&submit=Search

Hi Nate,
I'll update the study I did on Lithium applications for the 38 at some point.
I am pushing the limits on the AGM 1150 amp hour batteries we have given extended cruising. They'll be fine but I'll be cycling more than I expected to. I'll need to update my electrical budget as well after adding starlink, 2nd fridge and revisit the lengthy study I did two years ago. I didn't go "lithium" because I didn't have enough time to get the design done and address the installation at the factory before the original schedule slipped due to covide etc. Two years ago and still today, if your going to invest in this area, there is a lot to consider from the alternators, controllers and even down to the length of the battery cables. But all of that is getting to more common knowledge. I also wanted to design it for the PNW and found no one "certified" north of Seattle two years ago who really worked on the systems. At the time I wanted to retire and not worry about installing a system for the first time for the installers and me.

All that is changing and I'd probably go the Li route today.

My first toe dip is to convert my camper over get further educated and then wait for these batteries to get cycled enough.

Btw - my experience in anchor bays listening to noisy generators .. I'd never do that.. but Doug said how quiet his generator was.. offered to turn it on for me, and said NO! I was sitting on my boat the first week I got it. generatorless. No water maker, no big screen, no ac, just 5 big batts and 2 big solars.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Thanks Tom. We have been trying to think where to put a freezer in our boat that works with the genset taking up so much space. More measurements to come I suspect. ....

You have a genset, then check in with Doug (Alba Bella). He bought the 62L unit and placing it on the cockpit. (or was going to)

We had Scott put a 12 volt and 120v back there in case I put the frig/freezer there. I bought the 62L as well but sent it back after they advertised in Li battery in it, but the box was pasted over with a stick "not included" and given the frig APP didn't work I sent it back after a dozen emails.

If like my 75L it might work well. I've been told don't expect any of these frigs to last long, like 3 years or so. Look at Domintec and others, more pricey but better known in the marine industry. There are a ton of these at Amazon, home depot, fisheries to pick from.

 

[twistedtree]

Hi Peter, I agree with you. I should follow whatever the spec says. I think I gave the wrong impression I'm over-indexing on taking care of a new vessel of which replacing the engine is about the cost of a baseline corvette.

My hidden ask is if anyone understands why Cummins would double (2x) the oil duration not just a few percentage points based on USLD. I have other Diesel engines and its the first I've heard of this. Not trying to challenge it but understand it. The chemistry behind it. It'd make me feel better not going with an unexplained extension of non-maintenance from eveyones else book.. I believe I presented both sides of valid opinions.

Your opinion, rightly, is just as important.

I appreciate your input - Yes if I stop learning all the other stuff as well it wont be fun anymore. Thats why I've taken weather, radar classes in the past in seminars and courses like diesel mechanics, and will continue to do so. Otherwise, Id be spending time in storms, running into things and on the rocks between mechanical engine breakdowns.

I after reading my lengthy discussion I would agree scale and not appear to overindex..above other important education.

Thanks, Tom

It is also my understanding that ULSD fuel reduces the acidity buildup in the oil. But of course that's only one dimension of what depletes oil. If Cummins allows for a 500 hr interval when using ULSD, I would very likely change at that interval. My Scania is a 500 hr interval, and I think that presumes ULSD, but I'm not certain. But the Scania also has an oil centrifuge to extract contaminants, and it's pretty eye opening to see how much collects.

 

[Helmsman]

Hi Nate,
I'll update the study I did on Lithium applications for the 38 at some point.
I am pushing the limits on the AGM 1150 amp hour batteries we have given extended cruising.

Btw - my experience in anchor bays listening to noisy generators .. I'd never do that.. but Doug said how quiet his generator was.. offered to turn it on for me, and said NO! I was sitting on my boat the first week I got it. generatorless. No water maker, no big screen, no ac, just 5 big batts and 2 big solars.

The gennie is an absolute (at least for me) on this side of the country. We have had temps in the nineties with high humidity for the last three of four weeks. So, lithium has not been a real consideration for us. The AC’s would deplete all but a very large bank pretty quickly, though I have been following some posts on other forums where folks are getting six or seven hours of AC out of a lithium bank overnight.

A lot to be said for quiet anchorages! If someone designed and HVAC that used a heat pump for cooling and diesel for heating I think it would sell on the east coast and the river system.

 

[PattiS]

Thanks Tom. We have been trying to think where to put a freezer in our boat that works with the genset taking up so much space. More measurements to come I suspect. ....

You have a genset, then check in with Doug (Alba Bella). He bought the 62L unit and placing it on the cockpit. (or was going to)

We had Scott put a 12 volt and 120v back there in case I put the frig/freezer there. I bought the 62L as well but sent it back after they advertised in Li battery in it, but the box was pasted over with a stick "not included" and given the frig APP didn't work I sent it back after a dozen emails.

If like my 75L it might work well. I've been told don't expect any of these frigs to last long, like 3 years or so. Look at Domintec and others, more pricey but better known in the marine industry. There are a ton of these at Amazon, home depot, fisheries to pick from.

We do have the 62L unit and it fits beautifully in the salon lazarette with our generator. So far, we have been using it as a refrigerator for cold beverages (we were out on a 10 day yacht club cruise and needed beverages more than frozen food), but untended to use it more as a freezer than refrigerator in the future. We had tested the freezer function while we were waiting for Alba Bella to arrive when we replaced our kitchen refrigerator and it worked perfectly.

 

[ABfish]

I have a pretty basic view on this. Just do what the manufacturer say for change intervals, and oil specs. Beyond that, find something else to worry about or to occupy your time. Engines don't fail because the change interval was off a bit, or someone picked one brand of oil over another. It simply doesn't happen, ever. And do what the manufacturer says, not some "expert". You can't prove a negative, so the experience of the 100 year old diesel expert who has been doing this for 150 years really doesn't tell you anything.


If you are looking for something to focus on, really learn the navigation rules, or learn how to fully use a radar, or learn more about weather patterns and forecasting. Those will serve you MUCH better while cruising than fretting over oil changes.

Having been around heavy equipment for 35 years, I have the same thoughts regarding oil changes. Common rail fuel injection and the low sulfur diesel fuel have resulted in most all of the heavy equipment manufacturers recommending 500 hour oil changes. And I'm talking about operating conditions that can exceed 100 F ambient temperature with lots of dust.

Use the manufacturer's interval and the right weight and API class of oil. No need to be concerned beyond that.

Most engine failures that I've been around were caused by a loss of oil (think hole in oil pan or ruptured line to a remote oil filter) or an overheat condition.
Or an overspeed due to a failed turbo.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Having been around heavy equipment for 35 years, ...

Use the manufacturer's interval and the right weight and API class of oil. No need to be concerned beyond that.

....

Thanks for the replys on oil changes from twisted tree and ABfish.

I doubt Cummins will ever reply on the why and I believe we can assume the acid references as possibly why the difference using USLD.

So to conclude, I'm using the prescribed oils, filter and duration from cummins input and specs. So I'm changing at less than 501 hours or yearly winter storage whichever comes first since I'll be 250+hrs each year. I've seen too many references of recommendations to change out the oils before winter. There will be different acids remaining in the oils as described in the links I sent out even though there is a reduction in the sulfuric acids.

Thanks, Tom

I appreciate your input.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

We do have the 62L unit and it fits beautifully in the salon lazarette with our generator. So far, we have been using it as a refrigerator for cold beverages (we were out on a 10 day yacht club cruise and needed beverages more than frozen food), but untended to use it more as a freezer than refrigerator in the future. We had tested the freezer function while we were waiting for Alba Bella to arrive when we replaced our kitchen refrigerator and it worked perfectly.

Hi Patty, when you bought yours (I think from Home Depot?) did it come with a chargeable battery (as advertised on Amazon - which is false), and did you guys load the APP on your apples to see if it works?

 

[PattiS]

Hi Patty, when you bought yours (I think from Home Depot?) did it come with a chargeable battery (as advertised on Amazon - which is false), and did you guys load the APP on your apples to see if it works?

We bought through Costco. It did not come with a battery and we don’t see a place for one. The app does work on our iPhones and we have it plugged into the 120v outlet in the lazarette.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

We bought through Costco. It did not come with a battery and we don’t see a place for one. The app does work on our iPhones and we have it plugged into the 120v outlet in the lazarette.

The battery door is on the back. I went to the site and it now shows it's option and I heard it's $200 - not shown to purchase on site but ever interested, you would have to call them..

https://massimoelectric.com/e-koolers/#

That would be good if your tailgating, but since your using it for your boat and have a generator, you probably don't need it. Im happy it's on the 75L because I can use it. I don't see other brand-designs offering it.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

We do have the 62L unit and it fits beautifully in the salon lazarette with our generator.

Where exactly in relation to the generator? Can you post a picture of your setup? And how do you have the unit secured?

 

[PattiS]

Where exactly in relation to the generator? Can you post a picture of your setup? And how do you have the unit secured?

We were finally able to get a picture of where we put our refrigerator/freezer in our lazarette. We have not strapped it down, but are considering putting a silicon mat underneath it to keep it in place.

 

[Doug_Snider]

The height is almost exactly the height of the lazzarette and, with the hatch closed, the unit cannot tip or overturn.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

The height is almost exactly the height of the lazzarette and, with the hatch closed, the unit cannot tip or overturn.

This is a pretty good solution if you have a generator. I like it.

Ours is much bigger in size as 75L two chamber vs Doug 62L. Our two chambers which you can control as a frig or freezer on either side. Note: One side is smaller than the other for the compressor but in the end its still 75 Liters. The 62L is much smaller and more efficient in size vs cooling space (which is better) as it's only one chamber. We've only used one side as a frig once this trip after provisioning. The remaining trip it'll be a freezer holding the fish which is a good thing.

The other thing I like about it is the ability to put it on the stern if needed, and it will fit there as well (although I'd put it below as Doug did). The 75L on the stern is too big by about 1/2" to fit between the sliding door and the side door.

If I had a gen, I'd buy Doug's 62.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Oil change and ULSD - final final

Hi Peter, I agree with you. I should follow whatever the spec says. I think I gave the wrong impression I'm over-indexing on taking care of a new vessel of which replacing the engine is about the cost of a baseline corvette.

My hidden ask is if anyone understands why Cummins would double (2x) the oil duration not just a few percentage points based on USLD. I have other Diesel engines and its the first I've heard of this. Not trying to challenge it but understand it. The chemistry behind it. It'd make me feel better not going with an unexplained extension of non-maintenance from eveyones else book.. I believe I presented both sides of valid opinions.

Your opinion, rightly, is just as important.

I appreciate your input - Yes if I stop learning all the other stuff as well it wont be fun anymore. Thats why I've taken weather, radar classes in the past in seminars and courses like diesel mechanics, and will continue to do so. Otherwise, Id be spending time in storms, running into things and on the rocks between mechanical engine breakdowns.

I after reading my lengthy discussion I would agree scale and not appear to overindex..above other important education.

Thanks, Tom

I can quote myself!

This is final final on the oil change duration on ULSD. While its not new information, Cummins finally got back to me. The question was raised at several levels from what I can tell, the technitions didn't know or have an answer so I asked to track down the engineer who wrote the spec. They did and the answer came back unsurprisingly.

"I received word from the marine application engineer that I spoke with previously. He made some inquiries, and the official statement is that the change in the manual is correct and to follow what is in the manual. I was not given any reasoning as to the change, just that the change is correct and 500 hours is the oil change interval for engines burning USLD."

SO I am changing oil at 500 hours or 1 year which ever is first, preferably the day I hibernate the ship in late fall for the winter as the oil will contain other acids that need not sit in the engine for months.

thanks, tom

 

[Helmsman]

I can quote myself!

This is final final on the oil change duration on ULSD. While its not new information, Cummins finally got back to me. The question was raised at several levels from what I can tell, the technitions didn't know or have an answer so I asked to track down the engineer who wrote the spec. They did and the answer came back unsurprisingly.

"I received word from the marine application engineer that I spoke with previously. He made some inquiries, and the official statement is that the change in the manual is correct and to follow what is in the manual. I was not given any reasoning as to the change, just that the change is correct and 500 hours is the oil change interval for engines burning USLD."

SO I am changing oil at 500 hours or 1 year which ever is first, preferably the day I hibernate the ship in late fall for the winter as the oil will contain other acids that need not sit in the engine for months.

thanks, tom

Tom,


This whole set of discussions around oil management is really helpful. We certainly won't get to 500 hours the first year, but may hit the 250. The thought and effort you put into it provides all of us some flexibility with when to change the oil.



I appreciate you taking the time to take us through the reasoning which allowed us to arrive at this understanding. Awesome work!


Nate

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Tom,


This whole set of discussions around oil management is really helpful. ...


I appreciate you taking the time to take us through the reasoning which allowed us to arrive at this understanding. Awesome work!


Nate

No problem. I did ask AI site out there. It said to follow the manual instructions, but take care of it - as it is in love with Helmsmans