Are people over the Lithium fire risk?

[Bongi]

We went end to end Victron Lithium (480 a/h) on our 89 Californian 48 CPMY last year and have absolutely loved it. Soon she will be on the market in Anacortes and I suddenly realized some may think LifePo lithiums are still a fire risk - and steer clear of the boat.

Have people gotten over this by now realizing LifePo is not the early generation lithium… or will most not even realize what they are looking at?

 

[psneeld]

Like many things...I suppose it depends on the level of familiarity with the issue.


With huge recalls right now in the electric/hybrid cars over possible fire...one can't blame the less familiar if you don't include how your batteries and/or system is different.

 

[catalinajack]

I now understand that there is no significant fire risk having been educated by several others in another thread. However, for the short-term owner (10 years or fewer, at least) lithium is not cost effective versus flooded lead acid batteries. There are other good reasons to adopt lithium but cost savings, in most, not all, use cases is not one. The more likely to benefit is the next owner.

 

[psneeld]

Like many electrical modifications....even traditional electrical methods are substandard if done by some owners.


If the buyer isn't up on the tech stuff... I think it could be an issue when selling.


The USCG just released passenger vessel interim rulings on fire and electrical safety (on rechargeable batteries) concerning the dive boat fire...that in the news, even though no application to anyone's particular boat may still affect the less informed boating public. Especially with so many buyers these days being really new to boating in general.

 

[O C Diver]

I would guess it's like a short production engine in a boat. A number of manufacturers have had production years where the engine proved unpopular or was discontinued by the engine manufacturer. Sometimes it makes selling a near model year boat with the same engine manufacturer (different model) tougher because of the confusion between the models.

Ted

 

[EdSpiffy]

Probably depends on your buyer. We are under 50, still active in a technology driven workforce, and follow renewable energy solutions pretty closely.


I would see your setup as a positive. A bonus, even. It would make your boat more attractive to me. However, like with cars, the upgrade will not mean higher sell price.



This market is not rewarding old boats (20+yrs) and I don't imagine it getting better soon. Your modern battery setup might help tho. Especially with the younger and hungrier crowd.



E.

 

[DavidM]

When lithium batteries were first proposed for boats on this forum a few years back, I was aghast. Now I understand that the LiFePO4 batteries have essentially no fire risk.

I think I would carefully word your listing to emphasize the advantages and note that LiFePO4 batteries have no risk of internally generated fires. Or maybe keep your mouth shut about fire risk and hope for the best.

OTOH, I do believe that the advantages of Lithium batteries- light weight, higher power density, quick charging, no maintenance are mostly lost on boats. If I were comparing a boat with 200 Ahs of Li batteries to one with 4-220 Ah 6V golf cart batteries, I would consider it a wash, and even prefer the GCs if the Li boat didn't have a Li specific charger/alternator.

But it is what it is of course.

David

 

[Jeff F]

I would guess it's like a short production engine in a boat. A number of manufacturers have had production years where the engine proved unpopular or was discontinued by the engine manufacturer. Sometimes it makes selling a near model year boat with the same engine manufacturer (different model) tougher because of the confusion between the models.

Ted

Yeah, but it's a lot cheaper and easier to replace a battery pack than it is to swap engines. I'd view this as no different than the upholstery color or choice of electronics. If a buyer has a strong preference they should be prepared to make some changes once the boat is theirs. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it as a seller.

I agree that there are lots of owner mods that turn people away, but if properly done I'd present this setup as a positive rather than a negative. Not everyone will agree, but that's their problem, not yours.

 

[EdSpiffy]

TLDR; We are all taking the Li risk anyway, so getting the significant advantages a full boat system is all bonus.


It strikes me odd to be hung up on Li batteries in any scenario given how prevalent they are across modern life. Unless you are a luddite cave troll, in which case you are not reading this anyway, you are saturated with Li risk on both dirt and water.


Every phone, drone, camera, tablet, or laptop have it. Add to it the other stuff like flashlights, mice, lights, cordless tools, ad-naseum... Any one of them can set a boat ablaze. I bet not an insignificant number of us have cordless tools on a boat somewhere close to flammable oils and don't think anything about it. One chinesium battery away from full-tilt dino-fueled meltdown.



Someone hung up on the Li in your boat are likely looking for a reason not to buy the boat regardless of the electrical system. Ironically, they'll take the small Li bomb out of their pocket to look up the fire risk while explaining why they need $20k off the price. Then go get in a hybrid vehicle to find the next owner to low-ball.


This is all very "tongue in cheek." So don't get too serious.


E.

 

[diver dave]

...

The USCG just released passenger vessel interim rulings on fire and electrical safety (on rechargeable batteries) concerning the dive boat fire.....

On that one; I have a steel "broiler pan", i've been using in the dive shed to sit the Li - ion cells on; for dive lights. That pan will now reside on the boat for charging Li - ion; tablets, phones, lights, fans, etc. You are really in trust mode not placing Li - ion on a fireproof surface.
Also, check out the sailboat loss in the DR, blamed but not proven to be a single Li - ion cell.

 

[psneeld]

I guess some people get hung up that LI batteries are considered dangerous cargo and start fires in all kinds of devices.


I get it that there are safer Li batteries and incidents are often rare.... but if you have no interest in Li battery setups on a boat (especially a large trawler where space and weight isn't an issue and weight can be a good thing), probably like me, many don't keep up with the benefits and dangers. So yes if a boat had the system, and I didn't know that a highly certified person installed it....I might want that or equivalent assurance prior to purchase.

 

[psneeld]

On that one; I have a steel "broiler pan", i've been using in the dive shed to sit the Li - ion cells on; for dive lights. That pan will now reside on the boat for charging Li - ion; tablets, phones, lights, fans, etc. You are really in trust mode not placing Li - ion on a fireproof surface.
Also, check out the sailboat loss in the DR, blamed but not proven to be a single Li - ion cell.

My Samsung tablet melted its charging port and plug into it and charred my leather cover a few years back when I was ashore visiting friends. Sure things have changed...but occurrences are still happening out there.


I know it's not boat type batteries and I am not saying they aren't perfectly safe...just explaining why some buyers might still have a twinge of fear without assurances.

 

[diver dave]

Around 2006, I was in the position of rolling out 55k infantry radios to the USMC. Each has a pack with a few Li - ion cells imbedded. It was the USN that had heartburn with that one. I got hold of one torpedo pix that lit off inside, not pretty. I also learned what marine, really stands for.

 

[DDW]

If the buyer is unknowledgeable about batteries, he/she may not care, or will depend on a surveyor's (or worse yet a broker's) opinion. I'd make sure that your broker recommends a surveyor knowledgable about LFP battery installations.

If the buyer is knowledgable they will see it as a plus. A well done Victron LFP installation is substantially less of a fire risk than the LA they replaced.

 

[Greatlaker221]

Besides the LifePo4 chemistry, the BMS responds to temperature readings. Most have a high temp shutoff and some have a low temp shutoff. This provides some degree of fire safety as long as the components are good and last as long as the cells do.

 

[diver dave]

I think these are the single most important improvement made:

of course, these are not chemistry related.

 

[O C Diver]

It strikes me odd to be hung up on Li batteries in any scenario given how prevalent they are across modern life. Unless you are a luddite cave troll, in which case you are not reading this anyway, you are saturated with Li risk on both dirt and water.


Every phone, drone, camera, tablet, or laptop have it. Add to it the other stuff like flashlights, mice, lights, cordless tools, ad-naseum... Any one of them can set a boat ablaze. I bet not an insignificant number of us have cordless tools on a boat somewhere close to flammable oils and don't think anything about it. One chinesium battery away from full-tilt dino-fueled meltdown.

I think your argument lacks the size factor. We're all are use to a lithium battery in a cell phone. How many thousands of times larger is a boat house battery bank. I'm comfortable with a 20 pound propane tank on my upper deck (where a leak doesn't end up inside the hull) for my gas grill. Not interested in two 300 gallon propane tanks inside my hull to replace my diesel tanks.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

If the buyer is unknowledgeable about batteries, he/she may not care, or will depend on a surveyor's (or worse yet a broker's) opinion. I'd make sure that your broker recommends a surveyor knowledgable about LFP battery installations.

If the buyer is knowledgable they will see it as a plus. A well done Victron LFP installation is substantially less of a fire risk than the LA they replaced.

From the NFPA



https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...rts/Hazardous-materials/RFLeadAcidBattery.pdf



This is a result of the lithium ion batteries having a greater energy density, efficiency, and lifespan as
compared to lead acid battery chemistries. These batteries, however, are capable of storing large
amounts of energy and often utilize a volatile or combustible electrolyte and thus are prone to fires and
explosions. As a result, significant testing has been conducted to identify the fire hazards assoc iated
with lithium ion batteries. However, little testing has been performed on the lead acid battery
chemistries. Thus, in this work, fire hazards associated with lead acid batteries are identified both from
a review of incidents involving them and from avaulable fire test information. From this, it is
determined that lead acid batteries present low fire risks.

 

[rslifkin]

From the NFPA



https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...rts/Hazardous-materials/RFLeadAcidBattery.pdf



This is a result of the lithium ion batteries having a greater energy density, efficiency, and lifespan as
compared to lead acid battery chemistries. These batteries, however, are capable of storing large
amounts of energy and often utilize a volatile or combustible electrolyte and thus are prone to fires and
explosions. As a result, significant testing has been conducted to identify the fire hazards assoc iated
with lithium ion batteries. However, little testing has been performed on the lead acid battery
chemistries. Thus, in this work, fire hazards associated with lead acid batteries are identified both from
a review of incidents involving them and from avaulable fire test information. From this, it is
determined that lead acid batteries present low fire risks.

I agree that lead acid batteries aren't a big fire risk. But the lithium boat batteries in question aren't Lithium Ion. They're Lithium Iron Phosphate (less energy dense and much safer).

 

[stevemitchell]

Having just put my boat up for sale, and having an extensive LiFePO4 bank, I can say there are still some percentage of folks who remain uninterested in owning a boat with that type of battery chemistry. I think it could be considered a similar decision point for someone as the brand of engine or something else similar.

This is the third boat that I've installed LiFePO4 on, and the next one will have it too. I've also designed and installed hundreds of systems for other boats. If done properly, there is little more/less risk than any other type of power system. They all have their pros/cons and risks.

 

[psneeld]

I agree that lead acid batteries aren't a big fire risk. But the lithium boat batteries in question aren't Lithium Ion. They're Lithium Iron Phosphate (less energy dense and much safer).

I know hat they aren't Li...and have alluded to that but am mostly pointing out that any future buyers without all this knowledge being posted may have that concern.


That's why I pointed out early to make sure they see more than that the boat has lithium batteries listed...a little info up front goes a long way.

 

[DDW]

From the NFPA



https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...rts/Hazardous-materials/RFLeadAcidBattery.pdf



This is a result of the lithium ion batteries having a greater energy density, efficiency, and lifespan as
compared to lead acid battery chemistries. These batteries, however, are capable of storing large
amounts of energy and often utilize a volatile or combustible electrolyte and thus are prone to fires and
explosions. As a result, significant testing has been conducted to identify the fire hazards assoc iated
with lithium ion batteries. However, little testing has been performed on the lead acid battery
chemistries. Thus, in this work, fire hazards associated with lead acid batteries are identified both from
a review of incidents involving them and from avaulable fire test information. From this, it is
determined that lead acid batteries present low fire risks.

The energy storage is the energy storage. 400AH in an LA battery is exactly the same energy as 400AH in an LFP.

Second, the fire hazard of an installed system must be viewed as an installed system, not just one component. You have a diesel tank with FAR more energy than your battery bank, but it is enclosed in a metal tank and well controlled. Still, there are fuel fires. That is why I said "in a well done Victron" installation as this will have automatically monitored high current, high voltage, and overcharge disconnects that your LA installation will not have. Short the starter on your LA bank and you will get a fire. You will not on the Victron because the BMS will disconnect it before anything smokes.

If you can cite even a single instance of a boat burned due to LFP chemistry in its battery, I'd like to see it. There are instances of lithium cobalt and lithium polymer, but those are different animals, not what we are talking about here.

 

[O C Diver]

I think we're getting away from the OP's original question, is the Perception that lithium poses a risk in boat battery banks to some buyers. It's probably no more dangerous than hydrogen in a blimp. Think there was ever only one recorded incident of a problem there.

Ted

 

[diver dave]

And, that pretty well sums up the risk picture. You pretty much have to stomp on any and all possible factors to: keep alive, keep afloat, keep from being sued, keep out of jail, etc...

 

[psneeld]

The energy storage is the energy storage. 400AH in an LA battery is exactly the same energy as 400AH in an LFP.

Second, the fire hazard of an installed system must be viewed as an installed system, not just one component. You have a diesel tank with FAR more energy than your battery bank, but it is enclosed in a metal tank and well controlled. Still, there are fuel fires. That is why I said "in a well done Victron" installation as this will have automatically monitored high current, high voltage, and overcharge disconnects that your LA installation will not have. Short the starter on your LA bank and you will get a fire. You will not on the Victron because the BMS will disconnect it before anything smokes.

If you can cite even a single instance of a boat burned due to LFP chemistry in its battery, I'd like to see it. There are instances of lithium cobalt and lithium polymer, but those are different animals, not what we are talking about here.

I don't believe that is the way you phrased it at first and I just prefer to go with the research the NFPA that said the LA batteries are not a big fire risk so inspection of the other components is critical...which is pretty much what I was saying from the beginning. Post #4.

 

[DDW]

I don't believe that is the way you phrased it at first ...

Aaah, yah...

....A well done Victron LFP installation is substantially less of a fire risk than the LA they replaced.

The fact remains that LFP batteries, even in poor installations, are not burning down many (or any) boats.

 

[psneeld]

If the buyer is unknowledgeable about batteries, he/she may not care, or will depend on a surveyor's (or worse yet a broker's) opinion. I'd make sure that your broker recommends a surveyor knowledgable about LFP battery installations.

If the buyer is knowledgable they will see it as a plus. A well done Victron LFP installation is substantially less of a fire risk than the LA they replaced.

In red is what I keyed on..... if both are installed well with safeguards...and the NFPAs research...not sure where you get data that says that LFP batteries have a substantially less risk of fire.


Got documentation for that?


And how safe is safe.?..2 good installs with both types having low risk...substantially less for one? So if one is 0.001 and one is 0.0001 of anything...you have to argue about it?


And again this is not what the OP cares about...he knows...but do potential buyers?

 

[Porgy]

If I were the OP and listing the boat specs I’d be inclined to ID the batteries as “Victron LiFePO Marine battery and charging system” or words to that effect to distinguish it from others and not the generic and confusing “lithium.” I’d be prepared to discuss the differences between chemistries (maybe a handy pdf) and provide some educational Victron and industry links for the open minded and inquisitive.

I’d also be prepared to discuss why you love it so much and why cost/benefit isn’t a simple matter of dollars and cents in deciding to implement the system. It may require a little bit of salesmanship and educating on your part to assist misinformed potential customers.

 

[psneeld]

If I were the OP and listing the boat specs I’d be inclined to ID the batteries as “Victron LiFePO Marine battery and charging system” or words to that effect to distinguish it from others and not the generic and confusing “lithium.” I’d be prepared to discuss the differences between chemistries (maybe a handy pdf) and provide some educational Victron and industry links for the open minded and inquisitive.

I’d also be prepared to discuss why you love it so much and why cost/benefit isn’t a simple matter of dollars and cents in deciding to implement the system. It may require a little bit of salesmanship and educating on your part to assist misinformed potential customers.

Exactly....and I would add in ()...that 'LiFePO Marine batteries are the safe, non fire hazard ones"..... or something that is out on the net to give the right drift.

Many boaters I know barely know the tried and true ones are "lead acid" let alone knowing the difference in the more exotics.

 

[Jeff F]

Or de-emphasize it. I think your fears of the boat being rejected because of it are overblown.

What's the effort and cost to replace the batteries with a brand new similar sized LA pack? That's the mitigation if someone is dead set against the lithium. Split the cost and keep the lfpo batteries. Move on. In the universe of possible deal killers this seems like a nothing to me.