Are people over the Lithium fire risk?

[psneeld]

Or de-emphasize it. I think your fears of the boat being rejected because of it are overblown.

What's the effort and cost to replace the batteries with a brand new similar sized LA pack? That's the mitigation if someone is dead set against the lithium. Split the cost and keep the lfpo batteries. Move on. In the universe of possible deal killers this seems like a nothing to me.

I think the same way...if the potential buyer is hardheaded and wants to swap...good solution/suggestion.


But there are a few I have come across that are just not of the same cut jib.

 

[Porgy]

Or de-emphasize it. I think your fears of the boat being rejected because of it are overblown.

What's the effort and cost to replace the batteries with a brand new similar sized LA pack? That's the mitigation if someone is dead set against the lithium. Split the cost and keep the lfpo batteries. Move on. In the universe of possible deal killers this seems like a nothing to me.

I don’t disagree but I lean toward providing more disclosure than less. One could quite honestly state a 400ah bank was installed in 2017 or whatever. I wouldn’t want to waste my time or a buyer’s for them to find out later that lithium was a big issue. But that’s me. I definitely would not call the batteries plain old “lithium” though.

Whether to haggle over tearing it all out for a sale would really depend on how badly I wanted/needed that sale to go through. From the comfortable safety of not having to sell a boat at the moment, my advice to the OP is salesmanship is cheaper than tearing out batteries.

 

[Jeff F]

...my advice to the OP is salesmanship is cheaper than tearing out batteries.

Always! Although the 'tearing out' doesn't look particularly onerous to me based on the pic.

My point is that the seller doesn't have to try to defend the choice, or get into a debate over whether it's safe. Good salesmanship to my mind is being open and upfront about the equipment and condition, then listening to concerns and offering solutions to those concerns. By all means explain the rationale and show the invoices, but don't get in a pissing match over whether it's safe or not when there are practical ways to agree to disagree and complete the sale. That's good salesmanship.

That's where I think the engine analogy falls short. The new owner doesn't have to live with those batteries forever, or even for a day. Any reasonable buyer should recognize that. Lots of people shopping for a 20 year old big boats have red lines as evidenced in discussions here - no Volvo, no hull coring, blah blah blah. I just don't think this is likely to be one of those situations, and hence shouldn't kill any potential deals.

 

[Seevee]

I'm a believer, but not cost effective for me... I'll wait and see.

 

[Brooksie]

It would be a deal breaker for me. I understand that the batteries themselves may not be inherently dangerous, most problems have come from installation and charging regimens.



I see no need for them and all things equal would opt for proven tech. which is less expensive.

 

[Jeff F]

It would be a deal breaker for me. I understand that the batteries themselves may not be inherently dangerous, most problems have come from installation and charging regimens.



I see no need for them and all things equal would opt for proven tech. which is less expensive.

Sure. Let's agree for the sake of argument that it's a ticking time bomb, and you can't live with that risk.

Are you saying that as a potential purchaser you would reject the boat based on the battery type? 'Deal breaker' to me implies that you'd walk away from an otherwise good boat rather than considering buying it and replacing the batteries with proven tech. Maybe we have different definitions for the term.

 

[Bongi]

Soooo…. Fascinating comments and exactly why this forum is so valuable.

I now know how folks are likely to think about this. I find the perspectives fascinating. I believe in being up front because I am intensely delighted by how much of a game changer this has been.. and yes the cost won’t be recovered - but the value has been wonderful to us. They will likely outlast the ownership of the new owner with a 5000+ cycles lifespan!

E.g. we can draw down to 20% (under the control of the BMS) and then we pour 100+ Amps back in (via the Balmar 170amp alternator on a Multicharge smart regulator or the MultiPlus 3000 on shore power) it just pumps back in in one single stage recharge… they both are using lithium charge profiles. It is so much faster when you are charging at full blast. The lithiums just soak it up.

And there is hardly any ‘memory’ effect in the batteries which cycling. In practice we never need to draw down so low, but nice to know we can.

The install was done by Miller & Miller boatyard in Seattle under the direction of Hertiage Electrical, a certified Victron Dealer. I will point that out.

As modern boaters require more power (e.g. SatTv + OLED panel etc..) I predict we’ll see more large, functional power systems that will make power management that much simpler.

 

[diver dave]

Hopefully, ones fingers won't get caught in the belts as they wield the fire extinguisher into the flaming alternator.

 

[Bongi]

Hey man, that’s a great point and I suspect would/should emerge in the survey.. good thing is this is quite out of the way near the starboard hull side in the narrow channel behind the genset. A small cage would be easy enough to rig for sure.

 

[diver dave]

Its a fairly large cage already installed. Covering a lot of parts and looking to need that new alt belt to come off too. Consider the steps to change an impeller. Not trying to make this a big deal; its not. But once u wiggle back there, u want all the needed tools.

 

[Brooksie]

Sure. Let's agree for the sake of argument that it's a ticking time bomb, and you can't live with that risk.

Are you saying that as a potential purchaser you would reject the boat based on the battery type? 'Deal breaker' to me implies that you'd walk away from an otherwise good boat rather than considering buying it and replacing the batteries with proven tech. Maybe we have different definitions for the term.

Yes, I misspoke. Buy and replace if I really wanted that boat otherwise. Having had the experience of pulling people off a burning boat and seeing their faces, nothing would induce me to have them aboard.

 

[Jeff F]

Having had the experience of pulling people off a burning boat and seeing their faces, nothing would induce me to have them aboard.

I wouldn't have a gas inboard for that same reason. I get it. Nobody is going to convince me they're ok.

 

[Bob M]

We've AGM starter batteries and flooded house batteries. If we were living on the boat or able to frequently maintain the boat, the flooded house batteries would be fine. But, that's not the case. Flooded batteries need water, in our experience, frequently.


Lithium would be nice, but the ROI is too long for our boat plans. AGM is the best solution for our situation, particularly since I can replace flooded batteries with AGM without reworking the charging systems.



Flooded, AGM, lithium all work great. The choice may be more dependent on how you use the boat than the technology.

 

[Bongi]

So Bob, I think you nailed the rational assessment if thinking about adding Lithium… but if it is already installed on a boat you consider buying, and these have a lifespan of 5000+ cycles, then you know you don’t have to worry about batteries going forward.

This is especially true if the asking price does not really reflect the cost of adding them. Prices of prior boats sold seems to have to factor into the asking price!

…and there are also the other benefits - like charge rate for example.

 

[Bongi]

For what it is worth, she is now listed… time will tell how much of this thread is proven to be true!

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1989-californian-cockpit-motoryacht-8164399/

 

[catalinajack]

I am over that fallacy. I confess having had an abject ignorance on this topic. However, I still hold the opinion that LifePo is not the answer for all. In fact, it fits the use cases of very few not to mention the very significant technical challenges that must be overcome. For example, I have FLA with 920 ah. The useable 460 ah absolutely fits our cruising style of one night in any one place, sometimes two. My batteries will last 6-8 years and are inexpensive to replace and good for another 6-8 years. Switching to LifePo makes no sense in my case. For some, it does, I guess. For most owners, the benefits of lithium will go the next owner.

 

[OldDan1943]

Perhaps it is the lithium technology has improved?