Basics on a passage-maker?

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LeoKa

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Ironsides
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54' steel custom
This question is just for discussion about ideas.

What do you choose as an absolute basic item/design for a modern passage-maker?

I don't know how many members here have crossed oceans, as an owner, or a passenger. I am sure there are some.
So, if you had the option to choose, order/build, a salty boat for crossings, how would look like, what would it have to have? Let's peel off the luxury, the needs of the Admiral, the dream toys. Let's just go with the very basics. Hull, engine, aux., electric/nav/comm., deck equipment, survival, standard accommodation, food storage.

All opinion is welcome and appreciated.
 
Passagemaker

Look at Nordhavn 46 as a good start. While not bare bones basics they represent the hull shape and capacities you may need. With this boat you start adding or possibly subtracting items.

John T
N4050, N4061,N3522 - Former Owners
Helmsman 38E - Owner
 
SetSail FPB » Intro to FPB Program
Toughest structure with highest factors of safety we have ever used.
Three full and two partial watertight bulkheads.
Double bottom formed by fuel and water tanks.
Over 5,000 nautical mile range at 9.7 knots (full load, smooth water) confirmed with real world testing.
Excellent maneuverability without using the bow thruster.
Aft deck layout works better than expected and barbecue, in lee of house, is a great add.
Flying bridge ergonomics are excellent. New awning and frame system works well.
Interior layout, starting with entry landing is on target. The feeling of spaciousness is as expected. Galley, ship’s office, and owner’s suite all work as envisioned.
Engine room layout allows good access and is visually appealing.
Systems installation is first rate.
11 knots top speed at full load from 236 HP confirms efficiency.
It is going to be great cruising with less than five feet of draft.
 
Is this a one time adventure or a lifestyle? Think what you can make work is very different from doing it regularly. Assuming this will be done some what regularly and you will eventually encounter storms and breakdowns, here is my list:

Steel hull
Multiple watertight compartments.
A true collision bulkhead
Twin engines with one being able to make 7 knots
Probably 60'+
Flush deck design with bulwarks in the bow
Stabilizers of some sort
6,000 mile range at designed cruising speed

Ted
 
Look at Nordhavn 46 as a good start. While not bare bones basics they represent the hull shape and capacities you may need. With this boat you start adding or possibly subtracting items.

John T
N4050, N4061,N3522 - Former Owners
Helmsman 38E - Owner

In my thoughts, a Nordhavn 46 is really too small. I'm not sure we've really defined passagemaker, but I would never attempt to cross the Atlantic in an N46. If I was going to try, I'd definitely have stabilizers.
 
A cruise ship, with all the comfort and professional seamanship so one can sleep without worry.



On small-boat trans-oceanic voyages, does crew get enough sleep?
 
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The Nordhavn 46 line of boats has crossed many an ocean and several circumnavigations. The Krogen 42 has also crossed oceans. Larger boats the 48s, and 54s, etc all the way up to the 62s of these lines have crossed multiple oceans.

They are still fiberglass boats with single engines (rather low powered) so that they have long ranges. Stabilizers, active or passive are highly useful. Most have watermakers although for an ocean crossing the normal tankage would be sufficient 300 to 600 US gallons.

The Diesel Ducks, Willards and DeFevers all are similarly capable boats although there are not as many of them.

While you certainly can design much more capable boats for ocean crossing than those mentioned you are not talking about a production boat but a one-off.

Clearly a steel hull would reduce the damage if you hit a submerged object at sea, but what is the real likelihood of that happening. Many of the other improvements we can name also have just a small increase in safety.

Anyway, the Nordhavn 46 has reigned as the ocean crosser since it was first produced. In part because the newer boats, the Nordhavn 47, etc have not sold in the same numbers.
 
The Nordhavn 46 line of boats has crossed many an ocean and several circumnavigations..

I understand it has. Some of those more pleasant crossings than others. For some, it's the perfect ocean crossing vessel. The OP was looking for various opinions and it would not be for me. I don't go quite as far as Mark in minimum size.

Answering Mark's question on sleep, it depends on how many people. I wouldn't cross the Atlantic with less than a crew of 4. Again, I know many do it with fewer.
 
Is this a one time adventure or a lifestyle? Think what you can make work is very different from doing it regularly. Assuming this will be done some what regularly and you will eventually encounter storms and breakdowns, here is my list:

Steel hull
Multiple watertight compartments.
A true collision bulkhead
Twin engines with one being able to make 7 knots
Probably 60'+
Flush deck design with bulwarks in the bow
Stabilizers of some sort
6,000 mile range at designed cruising speed

Ted
Ha....That's on my list and definitely a tough find...most boats in that size don't have the fuel capacity for 6000 NM..Not even most Nordy's and I agree with Ted...for a liveaboard ocean crossing vessel I wouldn't go smaller than 60ft.

Ch
 
A cruise ship, with all the comfort and professional seamanship so one can sleep without worry.

Sure, and you can sit in a helicopter for a ride to the top of El Capitan or you can climb the face :socool:
 
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I`ll take the cruise ship too.
 
What do you choose as an absolute basic item/design for a modern passage-maker?... Let's peel off the luxury, the needs of the Admiral, the dream toys. Let's just go with the very basics.



It's truly amazing the different perspectives in the answers here versus what you would get on a sailboat cruisers forum - which would most likely be a 30ft sailboat that keeps out water and is equipped with a sextant.



Here it is 60ft with a watermaker and 6000 mile range at 11 knots - not including the cruise ship of course :)
 
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"Hull, engine, aux., electric/nav/comm., deck equipment, survival, standard accommodation, food storage."

To me the key would be the parts selection for quality and long life not initial price.

Industrial grade engine & tranny, mostly commercial not yacht grade equipment but the key would be in the design.

With a big budget I would use a Navy style tandem tranny with a NA diesel as power and the noisemaker as backup. CCP for propulsion.

The fuel tanks would have a bailable sump and I would still install a fuel centrifuge and a day tank.

The toilet would be RV head mounted over the tank.

Ships AC electric would come from a hyd pump on the main as well as a pump on the noisemaker.

The noisemaker would have a hyd prop , as well as a hyd motor to run the shaft with a chain drive, if not on a tandem tranny.

Boat hoist, windlass ,BIG bilge pump and other goodies would also use hyd.

Refrigeration,freezer would use eutetic plates , set for 4 days between power needs.

Sun covers fore and aft would be in the initial concept from the NA, and the boat would ventilate well with no power requirements.

Hand rails and grips would be in any open space you do not care to fly across.

Std flopper stoppers require little maint , stabilizing fins in addition if the budget allows.

The stabilizers would be installed as bilge keels ,not fins so the boat could live in high tidal areas easily.

If the vessel were larger the engine room would be forward as best use of space.

Even industrial diesels are light enough today to gain the space advantages of a Fwd ER.

There would be little extra expense or complication as a CCP has a thrust bearing in a normal install.

A few ideas to chew on. Have fun.
 
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It's truly amazing the different perspectives in the answers here versus what you would get on a sailboat cruisers forum - which would most likely be a 30ft sailboat that keeps out water and is equipped with a sextant.

Here it is 60ft with a watermaker and 6000 mile range at 11 knots - not including the cruise ship of course :)
I agree with you 100%. There are many boats that can cross oceans. In the end it's more about the skipper. I think the ones who have a long list of requirements that they could never meet are the ones that are never going to skipper any boat across an ocean. Then there's Richard on Dauntless - a Krogen 42.

I know that my boat can cross oceans. If I don't end up crossing one then it'll be all about me and not the boat.

Richard
 
Britannia (Richard) beat me to it but. I was going to mention our very own Richard on board Dauntless. His threads have chronicled his journey across the Atlantic, back and beyond. If you search on "Dauntless" you will see his entries, the latest of which is transiting the Panama Canal.

I also just saw an interview with him in the May 2017 issue of Power & Motoryacht magazine.

Marty........................
 
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I agree with you 100%. There are many boats that can cross oceans. In the end it's more about the skipper. I think the ones who have a long list of requirements that they could never meet are the ones that are never going to skipper any boat across an ocean. Then there's Richard on Dauntless - a Krogen 42.

I know that my boat can cross oceans. If I don't end up crossing one then it'll be all about me and not the boat.

Richard

Charles Lindbergh flew the Spirit of St. Louis (single person, singe engine airplane) across the Ocean, once. People take 15' center consoles with one outboard, to the Bahamas from Florida. There are a lot of things you can do once, and the law of probability says your likely to get away with it, once. If you're buying a boat specifically to cross oceans, the assumption is you plan to do it more than once. That's where the law of probability says it becomes more likely something will go wrong. So, I don't want one that can, I want one that was designed to.

Ted
 
There are many boats that can cross oceans.

I know that my boat can cross oceans. If I don't end up crossing one then it'll be all about me and not the boat.

I think the "me" part in some minds implies skill and while that is important, there is also the "me" part in comfort. There are many boats that I know I could cross an ocean in, but I would not. I look back to the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally in 2004. Many of those aboard had a miserable time. There was a tremendous difference in the boats and a lot of it was size.

If I could have crossed on any of the boats involved, it would have been the 90' Monk McQueen. I would have been ok on the Nordhavn 62's and 57's and the Seaton 55. However, based on that rally, there is no way I'd cross on the smaller Nordhavn's. There was a 40', five 46's, and one 47'. They all made it but some with a lot of assistance. A lot of their passengers did not enjoy it. Now, I think part of that was expectations as I don't think many were at all mentally prepared for the conditions.

For some, just making it across is enough. I've followed the stories of many who have crossed. Richard has crossed both ways in a KK 42, but that doesn't mean I'd choose to do so in the same boat. It has nothing to do with whether I could or not. There are many things in life I'm probably capable of, but don't choose to do.

I'm not sure where my cut off is. I intend to cross in larger when I cross but I'd be ok in many in the 60'-80' range. Unlike Ted, I don't insist on steel, nor do I need 6000 nm range. I'm fine with 3000 nm range at intended speed and knowing I can slow and increase it to 4000 nm or more. I'm less comfortable with a 2000 nm range at 8 knots, knowing I must slow to 6 knots to have 3000 nm range.

Some crossing single handed and some cross with a crew of two. I'd never cross with less than four and at least one would have far greater technical and mechanical knowledge and skill than I do. I have no concern with my skills at the helm, but I'm not adequate in the mechanical area for such an endeavor. I do believe though in being able to get adequate sleep and in just having enough time to relax and enjoy.

Part of it comes back to the question of why cross an ocean. For some it's a competitive type thing, to challenge themselves. For me, it's for the pleasure of seeing things from a different perspective, of seeing the beauty of the ocean and experiencing being days from land. It is something I do want to experience at least once in my life, but I want to experience it with some degree of comfort and safety. I also want to experience it with others, not in total solitude, to share it with my wife and family/friends. Some want to do it to prove they can. I never feel the need to prove anything to myself or others, I simply want the experience. I'm competitive on a tennis court, on a basketball court, or at a card table, but not on the water.

As to your 54' KK, I don't know it well enough to know if I'd cross in one, but knowing what I do know, I'd consider it. There is no sub 50' boat, I'd consider it on.
 
Charles Lindbergh flew the Spirit of St. Louis (single person, singe engine airplane) across the Ocean, once. People take 15' center consoles with one outboard, to the Bahamas from Florida. There are a lot of things you can do once, and the law of probability says your likely to get away with it, once. If you're buying a boat specifically to cross oceans, the assumption is you plan to do it more than once. That's where the law of probability says it becomes more likely something will go wrong. So, I don't want one that can, I want one that was designed to.

Ted
Of course I am not advocating anything like that. What we're talking about lies somewhere between Lindbergh and driving to work.

I also agree that I want a boat designed to cross oceans. The Nordhavn 46 is one, as are all of their boats except their small "coastal pilot" range. The same is true for most of the Krogens, the Diesel Ducks, Berings, and many others.

You mention probability. Although an individual may only cross an ocean once or twice, in aggregate there have been many crossings on these types of boat. I don't know the stats, but I personally know multiple people who have lost their boats coastal sailing - including one who had crossed an ocean before hitting a reef cruising islands in the south Pacific. In many ways coastal cruising is more dangerous than open ocean.

Here in the SF Bay Area I see plenty of people with boats capable of going out of the Golden Gate who choose not to. I think many boaters are more limited by their own comfort levels than the capability of the boat. There's nothing at all wrong with that. I'm just pointing it out since there is so much focus on equipment on the internet it's easy to fall into the trap of "if only I had..." as a reason for not taking your boat somewhere.

Richard
 
I think both of you guys have valid points. I also believe very much in what Richard has said us that most people are limited by thier own comfort level....

Myself...my comfort level with all kinds of stuff is usually far beyond what an average person would accept...and that's directly attributable to my own path in life...

Many a 30ft sailboat has crossed oceans but that doesn't mean it's comfortable for me and my wife..in fact some sage advice I received here within about a week on the board....Get on as many boats as you can before buying.

We found for our needs that ANYTHING less than 60 feet would not work for liveaboard ocean crossing...and although they are super capable and proven...the Nordhavns, KK's, and DD boats were either too cramped per foot of length or to old timey inside..


Ch
 
I'd go for an arctic fisheries inspection vessel, if given the fuel budget. They're pretty much made for the task, and are fantastically comfortable boats compared to some of the other serious machinery suited for such an endeavor. For your $100-200k you get:

100' length.
6-10 separate cabins.
Ice classed hull.
Medium speed main.
Triple redundancy of all mission critical systems.
Enormous fuel range.
All the comforts needed to keep a crew happy for six months of loitering.
The cozy feeling of a proper ship that's just not going to go belly up on you.
 
I think the "me" part in some minds implies skill and while that is important, there is also the "me" part in comfort...
I agree with everything you wrote in your post. I think we're on the same page. So when the OP asked about the bare minimum the answer depends on his comfort levels to a large extent. Though there are probably some minimums that the vast majority of us would agree with.

Richard
 
I’ve been following this thread and want to offer my input as someone who has done a fair bit of coastal work though I’ve never crossed oceans. My ideal boat would be simple and heavy duty. My list would be:

Industrial running gear. Main(s) would be non-common rail, I prefer a non-turbo engine. Far fewer failure points. Happy to run at lower RPMs in the event I need to extend range or slow down for heavy weather. Gear box(s) would be the kind of gear seen on fishing vessels. Big, heavy, solid.

Lots of spares, especially the ‘soft’ parts. Belts, hoses, filters. Lots and lots of filters. In my experience it is most often the soft parts or bad fuel that kills engines.

Service manuals, all the tools needed to handle at sea repairs.

Industrial duty hydraulic steering. Spare hoses and spare “O” rings. Some way to steer the boat if the hydraulics fail.

A day tank, the transfer pump would have 2 micron filters. The storage tanks would have a means to strip water and crud. It doesn't have to be a day tank in the sense it is one day's fuel. I do want it to not have any deck fills, it is filled only by transfer pump going through the 2 micron filters. A sweet setup if there is room and the boat can take the higher center of gravity is to have the tank slightly above the low pressure pump inputs on the main(s). Makes priming after a filter change a snap.

A proper de-watering pump or two. Ideally one would be portable diesel powered. Capacity measured in gallons per minute, not gallons per hour.

Significant fire suppression. Ideally remote and auto in the engine room. A fire pump and hoses. The engine driven de-watering pump could double as the fire pump.

The hull would have water tight compartments. The engine room specifically would be water tight.

Paravanes. No moving parts to fail.

Doors and windows would be the best I could afford. Diamond Sea Glaze, Freeman etc

Comfort would be re-defined from the comfort desired for cruising protected waters. I’d want my berth down low, near the center of motion of the boat, narrow with high rails. Having been thrown from my bunk in the forward section and getting a mild concussion it’s not something I want to repeat.

The galley would be on the small side, easier to steady myself while attempting to cook.

My preference is to stand at the wheel in heavy weather. The pilot chair, bolted down, would be at just the right distance to park my backside against the front edge of the seat and hang onto the wheel at comfortable distance. I prefer to let the autopilot handle the boat on long passages but I still want to stand. My back and legs hold out better standing. Dunno why.

An intercom from wheel house to berthing areas. Sometimes you need a hand but you can't leave the wheel.

I see a strong preference for larger boats. LOA is not always the key to a good ride at sea. I spent most of my career on a 65' steel boat. Without a doubt the most miserable thing at sea ever. Well, maybe not the most miserable. The boat that threw me from the bunk was 85'
 
You mention probability. Although an individual may only cross an ocean once or twice, in aggregate there have been many crossings on these types of boat. I don't know the stats, but I personally know multiple people who have lost their boats coastal sailing - including one who had crossed an ocean before hitting a reef cruising islands in the south Pacific. In many ways coastal cruising is more dangerous than open ocean.
The law of probabilities are very different for 20 boats crossing the ocean than one boat doing it 20 times. Back to the Lindbergh analogy, how many times will you cross the ocean on the same single engine. Would you do it 20 times?

Ted
 
The law of probabilities are very different for 20 boats crossing the ocean than one boat doing it 20 times. Back to the Lindbergh analogy, how many times will you cross the ocean on the same single engine. Would you do it 20 times?

Ted
I'm not sure I understand your point. If you're telling me that there's an engine that's done the crossing 20 times without a problem and one that has never crossed an ocean. I'd take the 21st crossing with the proven engine - all other things being equal.

Perhaps that's not what you mean.

Richard
 
I think it's important to consider how much of your cruising time you will be crossing oceans, and how much you will be essentially coastal cruising, at anchor, or tied to a dock. Even the most adventurous world cruisers spend only a small fraction of their time aboard actually crossing oceans. This doesn't reduce the importance of having a solid ocean-crossing capable boat, but it does impact other priorities. The Dashew FPB boats seem like a good example. They are very capable, and perhaps the most optimized for passages. But that comes at the expense of living space and other amenities. Then in contrast, Nordhavns are built more for comfort, but are still capable of crossings, and have done so I'm sure hundreds of times now. But a Nordhavn won't cross as fast and as fuel efficiently as an FPB.

But getting back to features for an ocean capable boat...

- Durability. Can it take a direct wave hit without blowing out windows and down flooding?

- Range - I would agree with BandB's 3000nm as the magic number. That will get you pretty much anywhere.

- I'll assume a reliable engine and other systems, but I would operate with a proper daytank protocol. More specifically, strict segregation between purchased fuel and consumed fuel, and movement from the storage tank(s) to consumption tank only through a filtered transfer system. And I would probably scrub the day tank within a year of departure.

- Stabilizers, water makers, etc all add to comfort while underway. But if you like camping and demonstrating that you can live outside without a shower for weeks on end, by all means get a sail boat. Or if you just like minimalist living, by all means do the same on your boat.
 
- I'll assume a reliable engine and other systems, but I would operate with a proper daytank protocol. More specifically, strict segregation between purchased fuel and consumed fuel, and movement from the storage tank(s) to consumption tank only through a filtered transfer system. And I would probably scrub the day tank within a year of departure.

On my list, add a fuel polishing system with a centrifuge such as Alfa Laval.

Redundancy everywhere possible including steering, autopilot, electronics.

Someone on board qualified as Medical Person in Charge or equivalent knowledge plus comprehensive medical kit.

Access to a medical support service.

Top quality life rafts.

Immersion suits.
 
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