Basics on a passage-maker?

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I'm not sure I understand your point. If you're telling me that there's an engine that's done the crossing 20 times without a problem and one that has never crossed an ocean. I'd take the 21st crossing with the proven engine - all other things being equal.

Perhaps that's not what you mean.

Richard

My point was that the likelihood / risk of a problem for the same engine doing 20 crossing trips is significantly greater than one. At some point the risk factor merits twins. That same analogy applies to many things on an Ocean crossing boat. How many crossing before you experience above average bad weather?

Ted
 
Here's something to consider...

For the price differential between the price of a comfortable Coastal Cruiser and a just as comfortable Passagemaker you could have your boat shipped across the ocean via Dockwise or the like maybe 10 times.

More times than I'd bet most passagemaking capable boats actually cross the ocean in their lifetimes.
 
Here's something to consider...

For the price differential between the price of a comfortable Coastal Cruiser and a just as comfortable Passagemaker you could have your boat shipped across the ocean via Dockwise or the like maybe 10 times.

More times than I'd bet most passagemaking capable boats actually cross the ocean in their lifetimes.

But you'd never experience crossing. Many boats can be shipped across for less than the crossing itself will cost them. The point isn't getting to the other side, it's the experience of doing so.

You can drive everywhere you go for coastal cruising for less than boating too but it's not the same.
 
But you'd never experience crossing. Many boats can be shipped across for less than the crossing itself will cost them. The point isn't getting to the other side, it's the experience of doing so.

You can drive everywhere you go for coastal cruising for less than boating too but it's not the same.

True...

But but is it actually crossing the ocean that people dream about, or exploring whats on the other side of the ocean?

My boat cant cross an ocean, but it is comfortable cruising a coast. For us, and others with a coastal cruiser shipping might be a viable option.
 
LeoKa;544186 What do you choose as an absolute basic item/design for a modern passage-maker? [/QUOTE said:
Minimum 42 feet
Watertight compartments for bow/engine/electrics/rudder
Simple solid stabilisation (paravanes or steady sails)
Low rpm engine, -Gardner or JD
Low CoG
3000 mm range
Good Comms with backup
Capable of taking green water over pilothouse
 
True...

But but is it actually crossing the ocean that people dream about, or exploring whats on the other side of the ocean?

My boat cant cross an ocean, but it is comfortable cruising a coast. For us, and others with a coastal cruiser shipping might be a viable option.

Both. Different people, different things. However, we do dream of the crossing itself. We're read many stories about it and want to experience it at least once.

Now, to flip it a bit, there are places in the Pacific that you can only reach by crossing and not much shipping of boats to those locations.
 
My point was that the likelihood / risk of a problem for the same engine doing 20 crossing trips is significantly greater than one. At some point the risk factor merits twins. That same analogy applies to many things on an Ocean crossing boat. How many crossing before you experience above average bad weather?

Ted
I see. I didn't realize we were on the single vs twins debate. Personally I will have a get home system installed before I take Stillwater across an ocean.

As far as bad weather is concerned - looking at 20 crossings of different boats isn't really any different from 20 crossings of the same boat.

My point is that many recreational trawlers have done this and there are few stories of loss of life or boat. Obviously, risk of a problem increases with the frequency of crossings - as with anything that involves risk.

Richard
 
My point is that many recreational trawlers have done this and there are few stories of loss of life or boat. Obviously, risk of a problem increases with the frequency of crossings - as with anything that involves risk.

Richard

Yes, I haven't seen a single post here written by someone who lost their life crossing. Couldn't resist that, but those who lose their lives don't write about it, nor generally do their family members. There are many boats that have been lost at sea. Simply because of numbers, more sailboats than power boats.

That said, I do believe the risks can be managed effectively and minimized. The more you do, the more you're willing to spend, the more you can reduce the risk. That brings us back to the OP and what each of us would consider the mimimum boat and equipment for our own personal risk tolerance. I think the answers have reflected appropriately the varying degrees of risk tolerance among us weighed against our desires to cross oceans.
 
True...

But but is it actually crossing the ocean that people dream about, or exploring whats on the other side of the ocean?

My boat cant cross an ocean, but it is comfortable cruising a coast. For us, and others with a coastal cruiser shipping might be a viable option.

To each his own. To me it's about arriving at the other side, an experience which is intrinsically linked to the time spent at sea. Having something you've never seen before rise out of the horizon after getting beat up for two weeks is absolutely magical. The time at sea does have its own value, as well; I find an inner calm that is unattainable anywhere else, but I know that doesn't count for all.

If it's all about exploring the far coast, the most rational answer is to fly across, then rent a well appointed RIB and stay in hotels when you don't want to sleep on the beach.

But back to the subject at hand:

The bare minimum for a passage maker is something that will absolutely certainly get you there for sure. Anything more than that is pure luxury, and secondary to the first requirement. If you encounter proper nasty weather (which you will if you keep crossing oceans), the coziest thing in the world is a boat you can trust. You're not going to care much for hot showers and fresh vegetables if you rightfully fear for your life.

A lot is being said about reliability of the propulsion system. While that is certainly a very important aspect, even a critical one, I'd be even more concerned with the boat's ability to take a proper beating.

You want small winows, all externally framed. Think 12mm hardened glass and no bigger than letter size, smaller if at deck level.

Exterior doors and deck hatches should all be as strong as the superstructure itself (think steel hatches or equivalent) with multiple locking dogs.

Engine room vents should be of solid steel construction, and placed as high as possible (top of superstructure).

Shell plating and frame spacing should be such as to maintain structural integrity under extreme stress. Look into the forepeak of a North Atlantic fishing boat, and you get the idea.

All masts and exterior fittings should be oversized and built through to the internal framing.

The dinghy, life raft and anything else that absolutely has to be stowed so as to not get hit by green water on the deck, ideally on top of the superstructure, behind the bridge.

The bow should be shaped so as to prevent excessive over-spray: 10-15% of LOA (depending on ship size), and equipped with a wave plow or equivalent

Etc etc, you get the idea. Another point which has gotten surprisingly little attention in this thread is stability. You absolutely cannot over-estimate the importance of a nice stability curve. I've had this happen to me:

DSC00670.JPG


...and yeah, that made me appreciate what an absolute horror it is to hold on through the night, half expecting to capsize at any moment.

While OP's question was about the bare minimum and not "which boat would you ideally choose for passage making", I alluded to re-purposed professional boats above, because they tick all the right boxes. Recreational boats, while undeniably much more comfortable, tend to be let down by large window surfaces and the like.
 
I think very few people actually want a true sea boat.

Remember that movie line... "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Well Henning pretty much summed it up above.

Diesel Ducks with their tiny portholes, cave-like interior and minor exterior lounging areas may be one of the best examples of a recreational boat designed for ocean work. That have features you would want when heading to polar areas.

Nordys and Berings may be popular and strong production boats, but they are way down the scale. But they are perfect for their intended market.

The OP referred to a passagemaker, which by popular definition is for crossing oceans. But even that does not adequately define his personal SOR.

By the way, by my observation the more expensive a boat is the less seaworthy it is. Hundreds of 38' sailboats have circumnavigated the earth, equipped with a handheld gps or a sextant. Probably cost their owners 40k-100k on average. Dozens of power yachts have crossed oceans, a few have circumnavigated, probably cost their owners 500k to over a million. Interesting, huh?
 
The biggest hassle with a built ocean crossing boat is living aboard when inshore.

THe volume of space for food , spare parts , big fuel tanks and water eat from the interior volume available to the occupants. Ports are smaller , and hatches too may be a compromise.

I am never a booster of cabins or heads that echo, but squeezing down ladders or thru passageways is no fun either.

Once a boat goes over 60+ ft or so this is less hassle , but the vessels draft may become one and the ability to easily single hand also goes down.
 
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FF

Good point and I was going to ask this, too. It might not be as technical, but how would a trawler be setup for months of food supply? Dried goods, frozen goods, grow some veggies? Water is a given, I think. Fishing is a necessity, I think. Proper dry food storage can be challenging. To have enough freezer space is not easy to built and support. So, what the optimal plan, when you are way away from land for weeks, perhaps months?

All the comments and this discussion is very informative to me. Please, keep it coming. It is very educational.
 
ACHERON2010

Are you aware of any other boat design, which can be compared to the FPB's capsize recovery capabilities?
 
FF

Good point and I was going to ask this, too. It might not be as technical, but how would a trawler be setup for months of food supply? Dried goods, frozen goods, grow some veggies? Water is a given, I think. Fishing is a necessity, I think. Proper dry food storage can be challenging. To have enough freezer space is not easy to built and support. So, what the optimal plan, when you are way away from land for weeks, perhaps months?

All the comments and this discussion is very informative to me. Please, keep it coming. It is very educational.


We are 60' and can go comfortably for a month without touching land. But I think it would get incrementally harder on a smaller boat as storage space, refrigerator space, and freezer space diminishes. Obviously lots of people do it successfully, but I think it quickly comes back around to assessing the level of comfort that you desire, and boat size has a big impact on that.
 
We are 60' and can go comfortably for a month without touching land. But I think it would get incrementally harder on a smaller boat as storage space, refrigerator space, and freezer space diminishes. Obviously lots of people do it successfully, but I think it quickly comes back around to assessing the level of comfort that you desire, and boat size has a big impact on that.

Well then...consider this a comfort level base line for comparative purposes :D

Doba was the first person to paddle a 7 meter sea kayak across the Atlantic ocean, a voyage that spanned 5394 kilometers. Doba's first voyage from Senegal to Brazil in 2010 set a record for the longest open-water crossing ever undertaken by a kayaker, at roughly 99 days. He was 65 years old when he undertook this journey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Doba
 
There you go. Comfort is in the eye of the beholder, and why answering a question like this thread poses is nearly impossible.

Exactly. Did you notice he was 65 when he did it?

Me-thinks his experience of crossing an ocean would be incredibly deeper than a cruise ship passengers experience.
 
Ted

I really appreciate your erudite opinions and believe your spot on. When I was a kid of 11 or 12 years of experience I took my boat a ten foot flat bottom aluminum pram all of ten feet (one of Sears best) with a five HP Buccaneer (made by Johnson with self contained gas tank), I also had a spare can of gas and two cushions for my friend and I to sit on. We left Miami at sunup and headed toward the sun, I had been to Bimini with my dad probably a minimum of 20 times so I knew the way. It was flat calm and you could see the wake behind the boat for miles, the boat was close to 20 MPH on a good day with two of us in it. I hit the entrance to Bimini dead on after stopping to add gas to the engine mounted tank.

We took the engine off, tilted the boat up on the dry land and propped it up with a stick so we could sleep with our heads covered but our lower torso exposed to the elements. Got up the next day and it was blowing 15 - 20, tried to get out of the harbor and over the bar but realized that we couldn't make it. Came back to Wheeche's dock and was talking to a sportfishing boat who was going to head back to Miami. He was entertained by our story and offered to take us back. Lifted the engine into the cockpit and then the boat which was tied down. Four to five feet coming across would have sunk the boat. We arrived at Government Cut and I had the guy toss the boat over, I thanked him (he saved my ass because my dad would have killed me) and we went back to the house on the San Marino island.

This was a way of saying, yes I went to Bimini but wouldn't do it again and as I gained some experience I realize how lucky I was to survive that trip.
 
Big fish my grand parents had a house on the east side of San Marino. My brother and I got sent to military school for pulling a stunt like that to Elliott in a sailing dinghy in 65 bout a month before Betsy. Glad to have survived our youth.
 
Cafesport

We lived on west San Marino drive, north side of causeway across from the empty lot . We lived there from 1946 to the early 1960s.

BTW I was asked not to attend Dade County schools and was sent to a naval high school in St Pete.

Small world.
 
Wifey B: My, oh my...all the bad boys kicked out of schools and sent away to military prison. :rofl: You dudes should have been good like me. :angel:
 
WifeyB

You might have been one of the bad girls! :)
 
I should add that perhaps you were just never caught. LOL. The stuff we did back then would get us locked up for life today. As a kid we fought almost everyday just for fun and we were friends. A different day and country.
 
For me, the basic would simply be a well-found sailboat. I love my power boat, but can't see myself doing long passages in one. For that, I would return to sail.
 
WifeyB

You might have been one of the bad girls! :)

No, I was a good girl, unless you consider running away the night before my 16th birthday to be bad, but I consider it good, smart, and the best thing I could have done. Never even a traffic ticket. :angel:
 
WifeyB

Sounds like a fairy tale to me but it your story. :angel:
 
The usual on small sail boats 30Ft and up was cans , and sealing dry food out of their boxes in plastic bags.

90 days was the provisioning norm , although the last food on board was rice and beans , and any canned goods folks did not like.

Cans would be marked and dipped in varnish after the labels were removed , so they could be stored in the bilge.

Get sailing books by the Hiscocks , Cruising under sail, Voyaging under sail, and many others from the 1960-1970 era .

They managed a comfortable lifestyle (warm, dry , well fed) with out "camping" or severe life style changes.

Cruising Under Sail: Eric Hiscock: 9780713635645: Amazon.com: Books
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https://www.amazon.com/Cruising-Under-Sail-Eric-Hiscock/dp/0713635649
Buy Cruising Under Sail on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders.

Voyaging Under Sail: Eric Hiscock: 9780192175274: Amazon.com ...
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https://www.amazon.com/Voyaging-Under-Sail-Eric-Hiscock/dp/0192175270


Voyaging Under Sail [Eric Hiscock] on Amazon.com. ... Cruising Under Sail (incorporating voyaging under sail) with 251 Photographs and 102 Diagrams.
 
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WifeyB

That video brought back memories. Thanks. ��
 
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