Battery Explodes!

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As I mentioned in post # 26:

"I believe in letting batteries rest. If needed, charge before using. If too old/worn-out to hold a charge - Replace It!!

Tender's consistent off n' on input can [over time] create internal batt problems. YRMV..."

In other words, in my experience/opinion:

L/A Batts that are kept properly watered and/or not let to get so used-up [old] that they can no longer hold a charge... as well as not continuously being "over-charged" [especially in the never ending on/off fashion of "float charging" or other continual "topping off" charge system]... are simply not very likely to have explosion/meltdown problem.

L/A Batts, like any other energy storage and/or producing entity, deserve the respect of utilizing and maintaining them correctly, i.e. always staying within in the general parameters to which they are designed for use - without pushing them in any directions that go past their known limits of endurance.

Jus sayen! :popcorn:


And...


Another factor regarding potential troubles relating to batts [BTW - I don't/won't have/use inverters]:


Inverter Fire


http://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/mag...3.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email
 
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Battery box "adding to the shrapnel?" No, that's not the concern. The pure blunt force trauma, not to mention the acid, is devastating; anything that contains it is desirable. Of course, those el cheapo battery boxes that most folks have on their outboard runabouts aren't what we're talking about. The battery boxes on Kingfisher are extremely heavy polyethylene with welded seams; I could use them to block up my truck.

So if you had a metal boat wouldn't it be better to just weld up boxes from strong plate? Even though they are electrically conductive, I doubt spilled acid could eat its way throw thick plate, perhaps epoxy coated.
 
See my post #61. Following is another way of saying what I iterate in post 61.

From the net:

"Can a sealed lead acid battery explode?" [I added ul's and bolds]

Sealed lead acid batteries essentially recombine gases generated during charging. Under normal conditions, no gases are vented from the battery... Internal spark will also not normally cause an explosion, except under high charge or discharge conditions with a defective battery


Also - I recommend reading: https://www.quora.com/Can-lead-acid-battery-explode


Again I say... Batts should not be used past their useful lifespan. And, whether new, or middle aged or old and virtually useless... batts should not be subjected to overcharging in any way/shape/or-form!


Respect your L/A batts and they will serve you well - until they simply can serve No Mo!!
.
 
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More on lead-acid battery failure modes and risk mitigation

IIRC, all the Ni-Cad batteries I grew up with in aviation were a compilation of 2V cells. They had issues and came complete with battery temp indicators that required gauges and idiot lights. We had Abnormal and Emergency Procedures to deal with the elevated tempswith an amber/red light. The first act to avoid a thermal runaway was always to disconnect the charge source.

They claimed the advantage of the 2V cells was to avoid the cell-to-cell migration of a failure. Is that accurate?

Yes, that's definitely one advantage.

The first advantage is reliability of the overall system. A cell can fail (shorted or open) and the system still works. The "cell failure migration" issue is a secondary advantage. "Failure migration" is primarily a function of charging a string of cells (or 'single-cell batteries') in series and also a function of heat transfer from a failing cell to it's neighbor(s). The most reliable system (and the one you describe) is to charge and monitor each cell individually.

I described above how it works -- a cell in series fails 'shorted' and this means the remaining cells are overcharging and outgassing hydrogen way beyond what they should be. A REAL smart charger would detect this and stop charging.

Anyway, using (and monitoring and charging) multiple individual cells is obviously more expensive, but you will see a variant used in most LiFePo batteries used in boats -- integrated monitoring of each cell's voltage and temp individually is built into the battery.

A pet peeve of mine is the trend of multi-battery chargers that call themselves "smart"...but do not manage charge cycles of each battery/bank individually.

One example of a REAL smart, multi-output charger is the NoCo Genius line. There are a few others. It can be difficult to tell if you are getting a 'real' smart charger, mostly because the imposters use confusing marketing language. The tell-tale is when you see individual charge status/fault lights for each charger output. If you only see one set of charge status lights on the charger, but the label says it's a "Four Bank Smart Charger", then you risk blowing up the next battery in your boat that fails, because the charger sees all the batteries as 'one big battery' and is clueless about the state of individual batteries.

An even better alternative for large and complex multi-battery systems is a 'coloumb counter', typically available as an option in the more sophisticated setups.

In this system, a shunt in the main ground shared by all the batteries of a particular battery bank is used to count the coloumbs that go into a battery bank during charging, and count them again as they come out of the battery bank. During the design of the battery bank, the total coloumb capacity (in Ampere-Hours) of the bank is calculated, and entered into the system's computer. Next, a few charge/discharge learning cycles are required to verify the inputs. Finally, a battery temperature sensor is required so the computer can adjust for variations of battery bank capacity at various temperatures. At this point, the charger knows exactly how many coloumbs are (should be) required to fully charge the battery (bank), and it knows the State of Charge down to the last coloumb. This is the 'Gold Standard' if you are stuck with multi-cell batteries...as most of us are.

Now, if the coloumb counter is saying the battery (bank) should be fully charged, but the battery (bank) voltage does not agree and charging amps are lower or higher than they should be...the charger knows that something is wrong. It knows that a cell is either shorted or open, and will issue a fault alert, sound an alarm, and go into a fail-safe mode, adjusting net charging current going into the bank to a very low level. If you've got a lot of big multi-cell batteries below decks, obviously you need this.

Following this thread, I get the sense that some people think battery explosions are random accidents that just 'happen'.

Lead-Acid Battery explosions are not 'random accidents'. They happen when people don't understand the technology, or when they do understand it but are careless.

If you don't have or can't afford a 'gold standard' charging system, then you should be checking every cell of every battery with a hydrometer on a regular basis. Can't even tell you how many times I've had a dock-mate ask me to share some distilled water (because his battery(s) were low) and said "Why is your water low? What does your hydrometer say".

The typical response is a blank look, or "I don't have one on the boat".

A good battery hydrometer is less than 20 bucks and I keep one right there in the same place I store my supply of distilled water, generally right next to the batteries themselves. Test batteries when new and replace them immediately if any cell(s) don't test out the same as the other cells in the battery.

Another 'best practice' is also an easy way to see if your charger is tapering off properly. When the battery is fully charged and the charger is in 'float' mode, you should see a few hydrogen bubbles in each cell, no more than about one every few seconds. The rate of hydrogen bubble formation should be the same for each cell. If you see this, your charger is working properly.

However, if most cells are bubbling fast, but one cell is not bubbling at all, you know you you are looking at a ticking time bomb. A hydrometer check would have let you know about the problem weeks or months ago, but seeing this means you are well away from the 'safe' zone. Disconnect the charger from that battery immediately.
 
Another 'best practice' is also an easy way to see if your charger is tapering off properly. When the battery is fully charged and the charger is in 'float' mode, you should see a few hydrogen bubbles in each cell, no more than about one every few seconds. The rate of hydrogen bubble formation should be the same for each cell. If you see this, your charger is working properly.

However, if most cells are bubbling fast, but one cell is not bubbling at all, you know you you are looking at a ticking time bomb. A hydrometer check would have let you know about the problem weeks or months ago, but seeing this means you are well away from the 'safe' zone. Disconnect the charger from that battery immediately.

Rg - Really appreciate your post.

Condensed it here for space reasons, and, to highlight what I seek to figure out [as well as many others - I'm Sure - also wish for] regarding how/where to place LA batts for super EZ access to consistently be able to check with hydrometer, keep filled with distilled water and simply count bubbles during charge cycles.

Sooo... here is my predicament, and - I'm confident most other boaters' somewhat similar predicament!

1. House Bank [which is also used as starter for twin screw 350's]: I've 4 LA 31's [East Penn mfg'd - supposedly deep cycle] hooked up in parallel. Location makes it quite difficult for access to keep tabs on all forms of batt check ups that should be often accomplished [although I do my best to adhere to schedule]. Set of four I installed new last winter replaced similar set of 4 that had lasted just over 8 yrs. before getting too tired.

2. LA 27 starter batt for gen set is behind the gen... very difficult to reach.

3. Isolated LA 27 "emergency starter batt" is in it's own black batt box and always maintained at full charge to be used as may be needed for emergency that may occur. That batt usually gets cycled with new emergency batt about every three years.... i.e. it either replaces batt for gen set or batt for outboard tow behind 50 hp. Crestliner runabout that is always with us.

Although all boats have different locations their designer decided to have for batt placement... those designers just did not take into account the need for [that in reality] batts should be very easily accessible for consistent check-ups.

All n' all - My batts' check up schedule [in their current obscure locations] keep me young via stretch and contortion actions - LOL I often ponder while aboard where I could put the batts for better positioning... none come to mind so far! Maybe that is why the designers placed the batts where they did!!
 
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Sooo... here is my predicament, and - I'm confident most other boaters' somewhat similar predicament!

1. House Bank [which is also used as starter for twin screw 350's]: I've 4 LA 31's [East Penn mfg'd - supposedly deep cycle] hooked up in parallel. Location makes it quite difficult for access to keep tabs on all forms of batt check ups that should be often accomplished [although I do my best to adhere to schedule]. Set of four I installed new last winter replaced similar set of 4 that had lasted just over 8 yrs. before getting too tired.

2. LA 27 starter batt for gen set is behind the gen... very difficult to reach.


Our batteries are similarly difficult to service. AGMs to the rescue, easy fix.

Not "sealed" in the typical automotive-battery sense, instead valve regulated.

I think gels would have been equally useful, but our original charger couldn't mix and match LA and gel at the same time... whereas it could handle LA and AGM at the same time. That made it so I could easily change over one bank at a time as they aged off.

-Chris
 
Battery explosions can be "memorable" events, I've been in the presence of three over the years. I recommend all techs wear safety glass when working around batteries, but you weren't really working per se. I wear (reader) safety glasses when ever I'm working in engineering spaces or in the my shop, I need readers anyway so why not. Having said that, if I was just cranking up my genset I probably would not have worn them except by chance.

While full containment is not required by ABYC standards, my own rule for flooded batteries is a full box with lid for this very reason, they can explode. My own 11 kW portable genset has a small MC size start battery, it's in a full box. Not necessary for AGM and gel, they are explosion-proof.

As far as clean up is concerned, copious flushing with water is the key, dilution is the solution, if you do that you really don't need to neutralize. If you can't completely flush the area, then neutralization makes sense.
 
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I have an Optima Red Top AGM which came to me "used" and which I keep in my tool shed for "whatever" purposes. Every month or so I pluce in on a battery minder for a few days. Several days after its last charge, I see it measures 12.4 V. Based on RG's post, it looks like it is time to get rid of this battery and most likely NOT replace it.
 
KEY information. So AGM and Gel do NOT need battery boxes? Changes things.

Correct, in fact no battery needs a box for ABYC compliance, the standards simply say "containment" which is open to interpretation. A tray is compliant.

Having said that, for flooded batteries, once again, a full box and lid are desirable to contain leaks and an explosion. The standards say that consideration should be given to the battery type. SVRLA batteries are essentially leak-proof so a box is of limited value; I prefer un-boxed, uncovered SVRLA batteries; it promotes more frequent casual inspections, you can glance at them every time you are nearby. Exposed batteries also dissipate heat more effectively.
 
Dangerous misconceptions about VRLAs

...full containment is not required by ABYC standards, my own rule for flooded batteries is a full box with lid for this very reason, they can explode...Not necessary for AGM and gel, they are explosion-proof.

Re: "Not necessary for AGM and gel, they are explosion-proof."

No...and this is a dangerous myth. In many ways, VRLA's are less safe than regular flooded LA.

ALL lead-acid batteries make hydrogen when charged. Valve Regulated Lead Acid types (including liquid, AGM and Gel) keep hydrogen contained inside the battery up to a point (typically 2psi). However, cell-wise degradation impacts all of these designs over time and results in overcharging of cells. Near their end-of-life, all of these batteries begin making make MORE hydrogen as cells fail. Too much hydrogen will overwhelm the hydrogen recapture mechanisms in VRLAs, causing them to release hydrogen above the 'regulated' threshold. Whether it is 'contained' in the battery or not, hydrogen explodes.

In fact (taking a lesson from the data-center world), a combination of factors including the pervasive 'explosion-proof' myth, new failure modes that are unique to these batteries (thermal runaway), and 'fail in the dark' syndrome mean that these batteries -- which ABYC groups together as "immobilized electrolyte" types -- are just as dangerous or moreso than flooded types.

1) The explosion-proof myth. See: http://lmgtfy.com/?q="VRLA"+"battery"+"explosion"

LMGTFY

2) Thermal runaway. One thing flooded Lead-Acid batteries almost never do is CATCH FIRE. Thermal runaway is a failure mode that is associated with immobilized electrolyte batteries, and frequently results in a fire.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q="vrla"+"thermal runaway"+"fire"

3) "Fail-in-the-dark" syndrome. These batteries all have one thing in common -- you can't check the electrolyte, so naturally you don't. Because these batteries are marketed as 'maintenance free' and because of the 'explosion proof' mythology, and because there is no way to test individual cells, people become careless. With carelessness comes a tendency to forget about them.

Thirty-odd years ago during my early days working in the data-center world, uninterruptible power supplies with various immobilized electrolyte batteries were taking the place of -48v telco grade flooded battery banks for keeping critical equipment running during power outages. It took the industry several years to learn the new failure modes. Even though the battery manufacturers were telling data center managers that these batteries would become a fire-hazard after three years or so, replacements were deferred anyway. See photos below.

Re: "While full containment is not required by ABYC standards, my own rule for flooded batteries is a full box with lid for this very reason, they can explode."

Again, all these batteries can explode. A covered battery box will not save anyone from an exploding battery, it just creates more flying shrapnel and possibly more resulting damage. To the extent that the ventilation in the lid may be insufficient to clear all the hydrogen (or maybe you threw something on top of the cover box and blocked the vent), a covered battery box can increase the hydrogen concentration in the area of the terminals -- kaboom. Lastly, because a covered battery box traps heat, the chances of a VRLA going into thermal runaway are increased.

According to ABYC (E-10.7.7), there are two (and only two) reasons for requiring a battery box; (a) contain liquid electrolyte when it spews out of the vents and (b) protect the battery terminals from incidental short.

My advice: properly maintained and with a good charger, conventional flooded types last longer, cost less and do not present risk of thermal runaway. To the extent that they are carefully monitored at the individual cell level, I would strongly argue that regular flooded types are SAFER than VRLA's. I would avoid VRLAs unless there is some compelling need, for example you might want one in a waverunner...
 

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I have an Optima Red Top AGM which came to me "used" and which I keep in my tool shed for "whatever" purposes. Every month or so I pluce in on a battery minder for a few days. Several days after its last charge, I see it measures 12.4 V. Based on RG's post, it looks like it is time to get rid of this battery and most likely NOT replace it.


Re: "Several days after its last charge, I see it measures 12.4 V."


As long as you don't leave it attached to a charger, it's not going to hurt anyone. What is the date code on the battery?



The Optima batteries use an unusual cylindrical cell. The battery might be developing some internal leakage, or this might be a 'feature' of this design. I'm not sure I would trash it yet. See if it can hold 12.6 for 12-24 hours. If yes, it's probably safe to hang onto it for 'whatever'.



Again, just don't leave it connected to any kind of charge source.
 
Our batteries are similarly difficult to service. AGMs to the rescue, easy fix.

Not "sealed" in the typical automotive-battery sense, instead valve regulated...

-Chris


re: "Not 'sealed. in the typical automotive-battery sense, instead valve regulated"

The so-called 'sealed' batteries are really VRLAs. The marketeers call them 'sealed' but there is always a vent...and what comes out of the vent (someday) will be hydrogen. Or flames, in the case of the attached photo.

No doubt, if you give a consumer the choice between a 'sealed lead-acid battery' and a 'valve-regulated lead-acid battery', sealed is sexier...
 

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Batteries in parallel = BAD. Carbon Foam = GOOD!

Rg - Really appreciate your post.

Condensed it here for space reasons, and, to highlight what I seek to figure out [as well as many others - I'm Sure - also wish for] regarding how/where to place LA batts for super EZ access to consistently be able to check with hydrometer, keep filled with distilled water and simply count bubbles during charge cycles.

Sooo... here is my predicament, and - I'm confident most other boaters' somewhat similar predicament!

1. House Bank [which is also used as starter for twin screw 350's]: I've 4 LA 31's [East Penn mfg'd - supposedly deep cycle] hooked up in parallel. Location makes it quite difficult for access to keep tabs on all forms of batt check ups that should be often accomplished [although I do my best to adhere to schedule]. Set of four I installed new last winter replaced similar set of 4 that had lasted just over 8 yrs. before getting too tired.

2. LA 27 starter batt for gen set is behind the gen... very difficult to reach.

3. Isolated LA 27 "emergency starter batt" is in it's own black batt box and always maintained at full charge to be used as may be needed for emergency that may occur. That batt usually gets cycled with new emergency batt about every three years.... i.e. it either replaces batt for gen set or batt for outboard tow behind 50 hp. Crestliner runabout that is always with us.

Although all boats have different locations their designer decided to have for batt placement... those designers just did not take into account the need for [that in reality] batts should be very easily accessible for consistent check-ups.

All n' all - My batts' check up schedule [in their current obscure locations] keep me young via stretch and contortion actions - LOL I often ponder while aboard where I could put the batts for better positioning... none come to mind so far! Maybe that is why the designers placed the batts where they did!!

Enjoyed your post, especially about 'staying young'!

Re: "4 LA 31's [East Penn mfg'd - supposedly deep cycle] hooked up in parallel."

I hate seeing batteries (permanently) wired in parallel, and the more there are in parallel, the more I hate it.

I discussed earlier what happens when a six-cell battery (12.6v) becomes a five-cell battery (10.5v) when one cell fails 'shorted'. With four six-cell batteries in parallel, you have 24 cells and the risk of one of your batteries becoming a 10.5v battery goes up fourfold.

Unless you have a coloumb-counter setup with temperature monitor/compensation (as I discussed), your charger, no matter how 'smart' it is otherwise, will be clueless when this happens.

Typically (with flooded Lead-Acid), this means you are going to have a boiling acid fountain, and the more batteries you have in parallel the sooner you will experience it. If you have VRLAs, you would skip the acid fountain and proceed directly to thermal runaway and maybe a fire.

The worst part about multiple batteries in parallel is that a 10.5v battery in the mix is constantly being overcharged, even if you turn off the charger! The 10.5v battery is being (over) charged by the other batteries.

Potentially then, you have three "good" Group31's dumping their charge into one 'bad' Group31, maybe for days on end. Obviously this constant drain on your 'good' batteries will put additional stresses on them and now you have a 'chain failure' mode developing.

Did I mention I hate seeing batteries permanently wired in parallel?

In your situation, I would want to see if the four Group31s in parallel can be replaced with a single 8D. If not, is there any other way to get you down to a single battery or at most, two in parallel? If you can get down to a single battery, you'll only have six cells to monitor down there and you reduce the risk of a cell shorting by 75% -- simply because you have fewer cells. Another option is to use a pair of three-cell 6v batteries in series. A 'smart' 12v battery charger will see this as a single, six-cell, 12v battery and treat it accordingly.

Another way of reducing the number of total cells in play is to use Carbon Foam lead-acid batteries, which for me are the best of all worlds, even better than LiFePo for many purposes. The technology was developed by Caterpillar and spun-out to a company called "FireFly". The thing about these batteries is that they can be repeatedly discharged down to near-nothing without damage. This means that pound-for-pound, a Carbon Foam battery can (reliably and repeatedly) deliver nearly twice as many amp-hours as other Lead-Acid technologies (Gel, AGM, Flooded, whatever), which cannot be discharged below 50% without shortening the life of the battery.

The power density is about 50% of LiFePo, at about 1/5th the cost. Carbon Foam batteries don't need any special charging considerations, because they still use standard lead-acid chemistry.

Firefly International Energy

Not much you can do about the little Group27s, but those are not used all that frequently. If they are using water, then they are probably being overcharged. Hook a NOCO genius up to them and you will probably only need to add water once a year of so.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FRQTXCC

It's truly amazing how important a good charger is.

Back in the day, boats I owned and worked on used the old 'ferroresonant' chargers. Batteries needed water every month it seemed and I was replacing them every 2-3 years. Using the newer intelligent chargers, especially the ones that really do monitor batteries individually, I find I'm rarely ever addding water and my batteries are lasting at least four and sometimes five or six years. Maybe even longer, but you won't catch me admitting to it...
 
Looking forward to hydrogen powered cars, lots of "bang" for your gas saving dollar.
 
Context is critical...

The MTBF comparison is true, but, to those who don't understand the nuances of what the MTBF of a system represents, it can be very, very, very easily misunderstood. For example, it isn't the case that a 6 battery/cell system is likely to last 1/6th as long as a 1 battery/cell system, even when the system is dependent upon all of them working...

Re: "For example, it isn't the case that a 6 battery/cell system is likely to last 1/6th as long as a 1 battery/cell system, even when the system is dependent upon all of them working."

That's not what I said, and I think you misunderstand the concept of "Mean Time Between Failures", at least in the way it is used in reliability engineering (vs. marketing).

Re: "Very, very, very easily misunderstood."

Yep. An MTBF or an MTTF of (lets say) 20,000 hours does not mean 833 days, nor does it mean 2.28 years. An MTBF of 20,000 hours means that if I have 20,000 of them, one will fail every hour.

Now...what I actually said was: "...the MTBF of the six-cell battery is exactly one-sixth of the MTBF of a single cell."

This is true, because it just is. It's true when the battery is new and it is true when the battery is in the middle of its lifecycle and at end-of-life.

The next error is to confuse "Average MTBF of a population over a given period of time" (a marketing or advertising term) with the "MTBF of a population at a specific point in time".

At any given point in it's lifecycle, no matter where you read the x-axis of the bathtub curve, a cell (or any other device) is going to have an expected failure rate. MTBF of a Lead-Acid cell might be very high when it is new, but will degrade over time, beginning fairly early in the life-cycle. For many systems the MTBF changes over time. The bathtub curve for things like batteries doesn't stay flat after infant mortality. Rather, failure rates increase steadily as they age. Light bulbs work the same way.

Remember when christmas tree lights were wired in series? Pretty reliable the first year...next year, not so much.

re: "Also, just for unnecessary and meaningless technical correctness, MTBF...MTTF"

I agree, technically correct but unnecessary. I was responding to a post where the question involved a comparison of discrete 2V cells wired in series (aviation/industrial standard), versus a 12v battery made up of six internal cells (automotive and marine mass-markets), the former is a repairable system, so MTBF would be used. The latter is non-repairable so MTTF would be used. The difference between them (MTTR) is trivial and only creates confusion.

re: "I've never measured in my boats or around the docks, but in my observation, this isn't close to true..."

I suspect that's because (a) you've never designed mission-critical aviation or industrial systems that use discrete, individually replaceable 2V cells and (b) your observations over the years don't include comparisons to such systems.

https://www.thesolarbiz.com/outback-energycell-1400fla-2volt-industrial-battery.html

Here's a picture of the system FlyWright and I were discussing, for context...

IIRC, all the Ni-Cad batteries I grew up with in aviation were a compilation of 2V cells. They had issues and came complete with battery temp indicators that required gauges and idiot lights. We had Abnormal and Emergency Procedures to deal with the elevated tempswith an amber/red light. The first act to avoid a thermal runaway was always to disconnect the charge source.

They claimed the advantage of the 2V cells was to avoid the cell-to-cell migration of a failure. Is that accurate?
 

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Riverguy,

As it turn out, due to my line of work, I am very well aware of building large scale reliable distributed systems. And, I deeply understand what MTBF specifications and metrics mean.

To be clear, I didn't suggest that anything you said was incorrect -- because, as I clearly and explicitly said in my note, it wasn't at all incorrect.

What I did explain in my note, as I said in my note, is that I, personally, don't think the average person who reads or hears about an MTBF specification or metric understands what it really means.

And, I think this is just as true when it comes to marine batteries as anything else. And, I think this is just as true when such numbers are thrown around by an engineer or other domain specialist as a marketing person or anyone else.

I think the 1/6 comparison conveys the wrong idea to those that don't already understand MTBF. I don't think the average person would observer 1/6 or 6x anything in comparing the two configurations in the real world boats with which they interact. So, I don't think it helps them to understand the world around them.

As a matter of intuition, what people really need to understand here, I think, is just that battery cells within a battery or bank thereof are like moving parts in an interdependent mechanical system -- each one can fail and disable the system.

As the old saying goes, "The fewer the parts, the better".
 
Damn near broke my leg getting back down off a boat one winter... unzipped the door on the shrink wrap and the smell of hydrogen sulfide hit me like a board to the face. I could not backpedal, scramble and otherwise panic quickly enough to get the heck down from the swim platform. Dealer eff'ed up the charger they put on it and cooked three 31's.

Glad you got away largely unscathed! Keep an eye on the clothes.. you'll see little pinholes burn through over subsequent washings... Had one in a car go off and it kept reminding me with gifts of little holes in my otherwise brand new coveralls.
 
Re: "Not necessary for AGM and gel, they are explosion-proof."

SDA: My comments follow below.

No...and this is a dangerous myth. In many ways, VRLA's are less safe than regular flooded LA.

ALL lead-acid batteries make hydrogen when charged. Valve Regulated Lead Acid types (including liquid, AGM and Gel) keep hydrogen contained inside the battery up to a point (typically 2psi). However, cell-wise degradation impacts all of these designs over time and results in overcharging of cells. Near their end-of-life, all of these batteries begin making make MORE hydrogen as cells fail. Too much hydrogen will overwhelm the hydrogen recapture mechanisms in VRLAs, causing them to release hydrogen above the 'regulated' threshold. Whether it is 'contained' in the battery or not, hydrogen explodes.

SDA: Point taken, I should not have said "proof" should have said resistant. I didn't say SVRLAs don't need to be vented for hydrogen removal, just that they don't explode. I have never encountered a case of either battery type that has exploded. AGM's can be air-shipped BTW. Has anyone on the forum encountered an AGM or gel that has exploded?

Indeed, they can overheat, catch fire etc, however, it's unlikely anything other than a metallic case would do any good. I'd argue that batteries in boxes are more likely to suffer this fate because no one sees what's going on until it's critical. I have seen AGMs overheat and the cases melt and deform grossly, but they still did not leak.

The ABYC standard for storage...

10.7.2 Provision shall be made to contain incidental leakage and spillage of electrolyte.
NOTE: Consideration should be given to:
1. the type of battery installed (e.g. liquid electrolyte or immobilized electrolyte).
2. the boat in which the battery is installed (e.g. angles of heel for sailboats, and accelerations for powerboats).



In fact (taking a lesson from the data-center world), a combination of factors including the pervasive 'explosion-proof' myth, new failure modes that are unique to these batteries (thermal runaway), and 'fail in the dark' syndrome mean that these batteries -- which ABYC groups together as "immobilized electrolyte" types -- are just as dangerous or moreso than flooded types.

1) The explosion-proof myth. See: LMGTFY

LMGTFY

2) Thermal runaway. One thing flooded Lead-Acid batteries almost never do is CATCH FIRE. Thermal runaway is a failure mode that is associated with immobilized electrolyte batteries, and frequently results in a fire.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q="vrla"+"thermal runaway"+"fire"

SDA: No argument, however, in practice this simply isn't pervasive in marine applications. Perhaps more of an issue in data centers. Flooded batteries produce explosive hydrogen gas with every charge cycle, SVRLA's only do so in the event of a malfunction.

3) "Fail-in-the-dark" syndrome. These batteries all have one thing in common -- you can't check the electrolyte, so naturally you don't. Because these batteries are marketed as 'maintenance free' and because of the 'explosion proof' mythology, and because there is no way to test individual cells, people become careless. With carelessness comes a tendency to forget about them.

SDA: Agreed, but this occurs with flooded batteries as well, I routinely encounter dry flooded batteries. When SVRLA's are overcharged, in he vast majority of cases they simply vent dry out and lose capacity, at which point they are replaced (and the same thing often occurs again).

Thirty-odd years ago during my early days working in the data-center world, uninterruptible power supplies with various immobilized electrolyte batteries were taking the place of -48v telco grade flooded battery banks for keeping critical equipment running during power outages. It took the industry several years to learn the new failure modes. Even though the battery manufacturers were telling data center managers that these batteries would become a fire-hazard after three years or so, replacements were deferred anyway. See photos below.

Re: "While full containment is not required by ABYC standards, my own rule for flooded batteries is a full box with lid for this very reason, they can explode."

Again, all these batteries can explode. A covered battery box will not save anyone from an exploding battery, it just creates more flying shrapnel and possibly more resulting damage.

SDA: I'm sorry, you are simply mistaken about this, and again your experience in the data center world may simply not apply to this industry. I've inspected the results of a number of battery explosions, and witnessed three first hand, all those in FRP or poly boxes were fully contained.

To the extent that the ventilation in the lid may be insufficient to clear all the hydrogen (or maybe you threw something on top of the cover box and blocked the vent), a covered battery box can increase the hydrogen concentration in the area of the terminals -- kaboom.

SDA: Agreed, and ABYC standards address this, calling for ventilation at the apex of every lid, purpose made battery boxes include this vent.

Lastly, because a covered battery box traps heat, the chances of a VRLA going into thermal runaway are increased.

SDA: Agreed, and I made that point in my post, boxes are of no value and may be harmful for SVRLA's. In the case of a flooded battery, full containment is desirable to capture leaking acid if nothing else, but also, in my first hand experience, to contain flying acid and battery parts in the event of an explosion, which is far more more likely in a flooded battery as a result of routine hydrogen production.

According to ABYC (E-10.7.7), there are two (and only two) reasons for requiring a battery box; (a) contain liquid electrolyte when it spews out of the vents and (b) protect the battery terminals from incidental short.

SDA: As noted above in E-10.7.2 a box may be used as containment. E-10.7.7 says nothing about "contain liquid electrolyte when it spews out of the vents". Here it is in its entirety...

10.7.7 To prevent accidental contact of the ungrounded battery connection to ground, each battery shall be protected so that metallic objects cannot come into contact with the ungrounded battery terminal and uninsulated cell straps. This may be accomplished by means such as:
10.7.7.1 covering the ungrounded battery terminal with a boot or non-conductive shield, or
10.7.7.2 installing the battery in a covered battery box, or
10.7.7.3 installing the battery in a compartment specially designed only for the battery(s).
NOTE: When batteries have both a stud and post arrangement, protection should preclude contact with any part of the terminal.

My advice: properly maintained and with a good charger, conventional flooded types last longer, cost less and do not present risk of thermal runaway. To the extent that they are carefully monitored at the individual cell level, I would strongly argue that regular flooded types are SAFER than VRLA's. I would avoid VRLAs unless there is some compelling need, for example you might want one in a waverunner...

SDA: What you are neglecting to mention is the clear advantage SVRLA's offer in marine applications, far quicker recharge times than flooded batteries, which equates to shorter gen run times. That's not attractive in the data center world, but in marine applications it's an undeniable advantage, which is one of the reasons why these batteries have became so popular. Furthermore, not having to deal with liquid electrolyte has been a boon those in the marine industry, acid damage, and burns was once a fact of life for marine industry techs, I for one am happy to see those as bygone days.

Having said all that, I don't condemn flooded batteries per se, I simply recognize the clear benefits and added safety and convenience of AGM/Gel (SVRLA) batteries in a practical sense in this industry. I've seen overheat and run aways scenarios (and I've seen many of those in flooded batteries as well), never an explosion (can't say that about flooded batteries). Again, if anyone has encountered an AGM/Gel explosion in this industry please do share the details.
 
I’m confused. I though, with the correct charger, that an AGM can be charged faster than a flooded lead acid....

My understanding is that this comparison was made to early 'gel' cells, and overzealous marketers of AGM's playing loose with the facts extended this to include comparison to flooded LA.

An exploration of the marketing malarkey is here...

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/agm-batteries-making-the-choice.124973/

I've had both types attached to the MagnaSine inverter-chargers over the years. These are capable of charging at 125A or greater. I've never seen any difference in Charge Acceptance Rate. Our current system (MS2812) recharges our 2x flooded 8D's at it's maximum rate.

Given that flooded lead-acid batteries are a commodity, and that AGMs are price and profit margin intensive, it is not surprising that there are a lot of marketeering-generated myths out there.


Example:

"Quote Lifeline Battery:
"Lifeline® AGM batteries can tolerate in-rush current levels as high as 5C (500A for a 100Ah battery)."

I find this statement both amusing and misleading. This in-rush will be very, very short in duration and does not mean a 100Ah Lifeline battery will charge at anywhere near 500A as many people assume that statement to mean. It's called marketing...
clear.png
While true, the key words most gloss over are "in-rush"...! This in-rush will be measured in seconds before the battery attains absorption voltage where it will then begin limiting the accepted current. But yes 500A won't blow up a Lifeline battery and it will take it for a very brief period of time before accepted charge current begins declining."


In essence, they are saying "if you can find a 500A charging source, it will not blow up your battery".

Never underestimate the ability of a marketeer to baffle you with bull$hit...
 
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...

As the old saying goes, "The fewer the parts, the better".

I think we're on the same page. The most reliable 'battery' would be one made up of individually replaceable cells, and would use as few of them as possible. That's how it works in the military, in avation and in industrial applications.

Navy submariners figured this out right from the beginning...

https://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/elect/chap5.htm
 
SDA: What you are neglecting to mention is the clear advantage SVRLA's offer in marine applications, far quicker recharge times than flooded batteries

No, this is a myth. Also, you are using the term SVRLA too broadly.

1) SVRLAs (gel types) are vastly inferior to flooded lead-acid in charge acceptance rates (C.A.R.). The C.A.R. of a gel-type SVRLA is typically 1/5th of FLA.

2) SVRLAs (AGM types) and FLAs are both far superior to SVRLA gel types. There's no meaningful difference between them, except that AGMs are more suceptable to damage from overcharging.

3) SVRLAs (liquid electrolyte types) are (slightly) superior to AGM in C.A.R.s

Confusion about (S)VRLAs:

Inside a "Valve Regulated Lead-Acid" (VRLA) battery (sealed or not) you will find either a simple liquid electrolyte, an electrolyte gel, an electrolyte-impregnated glass fiber mat, or (recently) Carbon Foam technology. All of these are VRLAs.

In and of itself, VRLA (sealed or not) does not meaningfully affect charge acceptance rates.


However, marketeering hype from manufacturers of AGMs is designed to confuse people, and it frequently succeeds. This is understandable since they want to sell you a battery that costs 5% more to make for 3-5x the price...
 
AGM mythology...sources and debunking

I’m confused. I though, with the correct charger, that an AGM can be charged faster than a flooded lead acid...

My understanding is that this comparison was made to early 'gel' cells, and overzealous marketers of AGM's playing loose with the facts extended this to include comparison to flooded LA.

An exploration of the marketing malarkey is here...never underestimate the ability of a marketeer to baffle you with bull$hit...

So...looking for the source of the marketing BS around AGM charge acceptance rates...here it is. This is from "Lifeline" AGMs, manufacturer of the West Marine brand and a bunch of rebranded others.

http://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/6-0101-Rev-E-Lifeline-Technical-Manual.pdf

Weasle-word warning: Read carefully. Note the comparison of charge acceptance rates is between AGM and GEL only, as suspected. Note their comparison of AGM vs. Flooded LA makes no claim whatsoever about charging faster than flooded lead-acid.

Also, look at their charge time math where they compare high-output charger to small output charger. These numbers are identical to flooded lead acid.

Next, note their claim of AGM vs. Gel on page 12 "Battery can be fully charged in 2 hours". Then...using their formula on page 20, try to get from a 65% SOC to full charge in 2 hours. Try it with a 500A charging source on a 100Ah battery. Try it with a 1,000A charging source.

You can't get to "2 hours" because it's marketing BS.

http://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/6-0101-Rev-E-Lifeline-Technical-Manual.pdf

Let's pretend for a moment though that AGM really is superior to FLA in Charge Acceptance Rate. Let's say it's twice as good. It's not, but let's pretend, just to see what you'd have to do to take advantage of it.

If you have a house bank of 800Ah worth of AGMs, discharged to 45%, an 800A charger would bring you back to fully charged in 4.6 hours (at CAR = 1.0). This is using the manufacturer's math.

If you have a house bank of 800Ah FLAs, discharged to 45%, a 400A charger is going to bring you back to fully charged in 5.1 hours (at CAR = 0.5).

Again...this uses the AGM manufacturer's math.

So here's the utter goofiness of all this: Where are you going to get an 800A charging source, and how much would you pay for that...just to save yourself 30 minutes on a 5.1 hour charge cycle?
 

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The only reason I use AGM batteries is because I dont want dig around there checking the water level. I have other, more important things to do such as take a nap.
 
I had a battery in an RV explode on me once. As was said here, it sounded like a shotgun blast. Set off the alarm on my car that was parked about 20' away, brought several neighbors out of their homes looking up the street to see what happened, etc. Made a real mess of things too.

The RV had an on-board battery charger to keep the battery bank topped off. Apparently this particular battery just had enough.

I thought about all the times I'd laid under that RV while working on stuff, never thinking to disconnect power or shut off the maintenance charger... damn lucky I wasn't laying under it when it went off.
 
Riverguy, do you work in the business? What's your background and training in electrics?
 
This is from "Lifeline" AGMs, manufacturer of the West Marine brand and a bunch of rebranded others.


I don't think Lifeline makes batteries for West Marine or anyone else.

Might be East Penn/Deka that makes WM batteries, and they apparently rebrand for others.

-Chris
 
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