Best Trawler for <$100k-$125k?

[nJAYneer]

Lots of incredible thoughts. Thank you.

What are people's view on Island Gypsy?
Some out there are pretty reasonable. Have Lehmans. And, from the photos on the hard, look like the running gear is above the full length keel.

Hulls? Build quality? Good boat for a DIY refit?

 

[foreverunderway]

I believe the prices on boats and RVs are going to drop precipitously over the next few months, so I'd hold on a bit longer. Boats and RVs are always the first things people sell when their financial future is uncertain.

In August 2009, when boats weren't selling at all, I got my boat for less than 2/3rds the asking price and it was in fine condition. When he balked at my offer I reminded him that if he didn't sell to me, he could look forward to a winter storage bill and the insurance payments. He wasn't happy, but he needed the money more than the boat.

 

[Tony sundeck 40]

Lots of people are saying the market is going to soften way up. I don’t agree with fuel prices down many people may want in driving the soft market north again quickly.
All boats are good for something you need to know what that something is. The great loop? Crossing an ocean? Coastal cruise? ICW on the east coast. Out to Catalina on the west coast? It’s all relative

 

[syjos]

I think that after this crisis is over that sales of toys, vacations and other things will explode from pent up demand.

People will rethink life and death and will start fulfilling dreams sooner than later.

 

[Rufus]

Lots of incredible thoughts. Thank you.

What are people's view on Island Gypsy?
Some out there are pretty reasonable. Have Lehmans. And, from the photos on the hard, look like the running gear is above the full length keel.

Hulls? Build quality? Good boat for a DIY refit?

Well, Captain Max says Taiwan/China boats are bad news.

Here's a Pascoe review on 1990 40' sedan. He does point out some things to watch for.

newshttps://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/IslandGypsy40.htm...

 

[Bryant]

Trawlers for sale

Hello. I have been pouring over listings on Yachtworld for 18 months from my home office in Minneapolis. Have read a ton of posts here. Understanding the best first boat for me is quite challenging. My wife and I want to live on it for extended periods of time in FL and the Caribbean. Hoping for something in the 42'-48' range. Looking for advise from this knowledge base...some of the boats that have captured my attention:

88' Jefferson 45/48. More of a MY than a trawler. Running gear not protected. Love the huge sundeck. Not sure about quality.

87' Tollycraft 44. Love the cockpit, but would like a bit more space in master. Runny gear not protected.

mid 80s Defever 44. Similar to the Jefferson, but is a true trawler with keel, protected running gear, Lehman. No aft cockpit...top end of budget.

mid 80s Defever 44+5. This seems to combine the best of above three. But, would need to find more money.

mid-80s Chris-Craft / Californian / Hi-Star 48. These are like larger Tollycrafts. Not sure of the quality of build.

Marine Traders: Most listings seem to be not well maintained.

1. Strong seaworthy hull (solid glass?) capable of safe coastal cruising and extended trips throughout the Caribbean. Cruising speeds of ~8knts is ok. Also looking for comfort both at sea and at anchor.

2. Economical diesel engine/engines where a reasonably smart and handy person can perform most (or all) maintenance to keep them running great. I hear Lehman's fit the bill. Any other suggestions?

3. Good livable layout with plenty of outdoor space. Lower helm is desired. Love the sundecks but many traditional trawlers (GB) don't really have a great sundeck version. Seems like the MY tend to have those.

4. I know this is not the same, but I have fixed and flipped many houses. As a result I am not afraid to learn and do cosmetic interior work to try and get the right boat to fit in my budget. Not really sure about cosmetic exterior work.

5. Will pay more for a boat that will hold its value over a five year period, assuming properly maintained during that period.

6. Should I stay away from engines that have been rebuilt?

Any tips on a trawler models would be super helpful.

Thank you. Jay.

Mid to late 80's Grand Banks 42. Find one that has the teak decks removed and the deck glassed. They are out there. And chances are, if it's a GB, it's been maintained.

 

[Exctyengr]

Certainly an interesting thread - you will probably get more definitive and conflicting answers that you can sort out. So have fun separating the wheat from the chaff. IMHO: (1) look for a boat with a good initial build. (Grand Banks, Tollycraft, Willard, etc.) (2) maintenance is everything, if the boat "needs cosmetics" it probably needs a whole lot more. (3) If you can charter a boat of similar make it might be $ well spent to see if you still love the boat after a few weeks.(3) Perkins, Lehman, Cummins, Cat all good, look at Volvo's and GM 8.2 with jaundiced eye - Volvo parts can be expensive. (3) Read, study, and read again - "Marine Survey 101" a great background on what to look for.
Personally, I like the layout of the deFevers, I like the build of the Willard's, I like the lines and panache of the GB's. If I were you, I would look at the Willard in Virginia - looks good to me.
Good luck - keep us posted.

 

[foreverunderway]

I think that after this crisis is over that sales of toys, vacations and other things will explode from pent up demand.

People will rethink life and death and will start fulfilling dreams sooner than later.

And just exactly where do you think these people will get the money to spend on these dreams when they couldn't even afford dockage or storage fees during the crisis?
We are a charter boat and I really hope you are right, but it will take 12 to 18 months to get a vaccine out to enough people that borders will start opening up again, and until that happens, only the rich will have disposable income.

 

[syjos]

And just exactly where do you think these people will get the money to spend on these dreams when they couldn't even afford dockage or storage fees during the crisis?
We are a charter boat and I really hope you are right, but it will take 12 to 18 months to get a vaccine out to enough people that borders will start opening up again, and until that happens, only the rich will have disposable income.

I'm certainly not rich but still have disposable income.

Some of my income has been reduced since it is air travel depended but has not affected us much since we can not go anywhere to spend.

I am an optimist. Glass half full kinda' guy.

 

[foreverunderway]

I'm certainly not rich but still have disposable income.

Some of my income has been reduced since it is air travel depended but has not affected us much since we can not go anywhere to spend.

I am an optimist. Glass half full kinda' guy.

I believe you are one of the very fortunate few.

We also have an income unaffected by this crisis, but I don't see our charter income returning before Jan, 2021 or even later. We are not even accepting down payments on bookings now, as things are so uncertain. I don't want to be returning money should the booked charter not happen because of the pandemic.
As I said, I hope you are right, not I, but I have my doubts.

 

[fgarriso]

Jay,

Not trying to sound like I am talking down to you. But, you need to narrow down your " wants & must haves ". Also the $125K price range your looking at you will most likely find bottom of the barrel boats in the 45' range.

With what is going on in the world at this time I wouldn't recommend ANYONE buy or sell a boat for the next 6-12 months. This has just started here in the U.S., and it is impossible to know what things will be like a year from now.

 

[CarlF]

Of the OP's list, I'd go with the Defever 44

1: There always a few available. This gives you something to compare and makes price negotiation much easier.

2: There's a strong owners network. You'll be quickly able to get information from other 44 owners about what to worry about.

3: Nothing wrong with a rebuilt diesel and it's probably better than a diesel approaching a rebuild (e.g. getting up towards 5000 hours). Rebuilding occupies your life for a few months and it's very hard to find a good rebuild guy if you are new to this stuff.

4: You are buying the previous owner's care as much as the boat. Favor a boat where you can talk to the owner not just through the broker. The ideal is a guy who has loved and cared for the boat but age (and his wife) is now forcing him ashore. Extra points for one that wants to help you take the boat to her new homeport for free (because he wants to show you everything about her).

5. The big things to worry about on an 1980's asian built boat are rusting tanks and rotting core. Especially the core problems usually turn out to be much harder and much more expensive to fix than seemed possible. As a first time buyer, run away from boats with core problems.

And be clear-eyed about the real cost. It's always cheaper to pay more upfront than deal with it post sale. It is not unusual for spending on repairs, replacement of "outdated equipment", and updates/improvements in the first 12 months of ownership of a boat like this to reach $50,000. And this is with a good survey.

The expense is usually not something like the engine. It's the $2000 for new cushions because your back hurts sleeping on 20 year old foam. Or $800 for a new electric head and all new head hoses because your wife says it stinks and is gross so she'll stay ashore rather than use the current one. You get the idea....

Like others I'd recommend a Grand Banks 42 or Monk but one without serious problems is very unlikely at $125,000

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Your O.P. is quite interesting and you have short listed some very nice boats but it seems to me you are going about it a bit wrong.

Appears to me you are selecting a boat on appearances and reputation, not a bad place to start but...

I think you should compile a list of things you consider important and then apply the list to a number of boats. A number of those boats will fall off your list.
Aft cabin?, Single or diesel?, flybridge or pilothouse?, # of guest cabins?, Bathrooms?, Genny, air conditioner, boat office, stand up engine room, davits, hoist, etc.

For some people one item on this list could be a deal breaker, for others all the items are sort of "would be nice". Get where I am coming from?

No need to shop a thousand boats when your boxes eliminate 500 of them. Time to start visiting marinas soon, less time for yacht world when you are physically inspecting boats.

One more point many new buyers seem to miss. Don't shop too far from home. For you, the Great lakes and down the Mississippi. Finding a boat which checks all your boxes but is on the West Coast could add 30% or more to the cost.

Good Luck,

pete

 

[Captain Max]

Well, Captain Max says Taiwan/China boats are bad news.

Here's a Pascoe review on 1990 40' sedan. He does point out some things to watch for.

newshttps://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/IslandGypsy40.htm...

Exactly! And he wrote most of his reviews how many years (or decades) ago, so can you imagine how the boats have aged since? Twenty year old American built boats that had no real issues just five years ago, are now having them big time. The bottom line is that sealants on any boat dry up and/or shrink in time, machinery wears out. Large expensive yachts that have full time crews undergo full renovations every five years are so, so expecting older production built budget boats with no professional crews doing NO daily maintenance to be trouble free after twenty, thirty, or forty years is sheer insanity. It would be like going to a bar and expecting to find a beautiful 20 to 38yro virgin. Nope, she’s going to be the exact opposite. Lol

 

[syjos]

Well, Captain Max says Taiwan/China boats are bad news.

Here's a Pascoe review on 1990 40' sedan. He does point out some things to watch for.

newshttps://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/IslandGypsy40.htm...

I'm not familiar with Captain Max but not all Taiwan boats are bad.

As someone mentioned, the history of the boat, previous owners skill and maintenance is more important than where the boat was built.

I've been on and worked on many Taiwan boats, know many owners of Taiwan boats and currently own a 44 year old Taiwan boat and have found them to be good boats. Sure there are a few built poorly or with poor or incorrect materials but those are the exceptions.

I owned an US built boat previously and it required lots of repairs and modifications to correct manufacturing issues. No more or no less than my current Taiwan boat.

The OP needs to narrow his/her search parameters to locate a boat the fits his/her anticipated use, configured to their liking, meets their comfort requirements, budget and condition. And not be concerned with brands and where manufactured.

 

[jbloyd]

I'm not familiar with Captain Max but not all Taiwan boats are bad.

As someone mentioned, the history of the boat, previous owners skill and maintenance is more important than where the boat was built.

I've been on and worked on many Taiwan boats, know many owners of Taiwan boats and currently own a 44 year old Taiwan boat and have found them to be good boats. Sure there are a few built poorly or with poor or incorrect materials but those are the exceptions.

I owned an US built boat previously and it required lots of repairs and modifications to correct manufacturing issues. No more or no less than my current Taiwan boat.

The OP needs to narrow his/her search parameters to locate a boat the fits his/her anticipated use, configured to their liking, meets their comfort requirements, budget and condition. And not be concerned with brands and where manufactured.

The review of the Island Gypsy 40 specifically states the vessel was built in the PRC, not Taiwan. I would like to think that would make a difference but have no first-hand experience to support it.

 

[syjos]

The review of the Island Gypsy 40 specifically states the vessel was built in the PRC, not Taiwan. I would like to think that would make a difference but have no first-hand experience to support it.

Either do I. I know some of the Taiwan boat manufacturing moved to Malaysia, China and other countries with less expensive labor but have no knowledge of quality.

Someone will lend us their opinion.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. jb. I find Pascoe's "surveys" just a bit...ahem....biased. The best I can remember, Kong and Halverson (Island Gypsy etc.) were built in Hong Kong, which pre 1997 was NOT PRC. It might be that some models were contracted out to factories in PRC. But neither one is Taiwan.

 

[DW1979OA]

The first boat that I looked at when moving up to a trawler from my 30’ Chris Craft Constellation was a 1979 Ocean Alexander Mk 1 I thought I really wanted a stand up engine room and was considering a Hatteras for that reason. Looked at a bunch of boats and ended up with the OA 9 months later. Decided that with the floor hatches removed that worked out good enough. Having a boat that is easy to get on and off from dock level became one of my main requirements. If you have dogs that go on the boat with you this is important. Also getting groceries onboard is easier. While I’m still pretty agile for 73, I do have bad knees that I try to take it easy on.
The other thing that lead me to buying this boat was the previous owner invested in new fuel and water tanks, stabilizers, and bow and stern thrusters. Extended the cockpit area by extending the boat 5’. That was huge. You could see that the boat was loved.
So don’t be afraid to change your priorities as you look at more boats. Go see as many boats as you can and then imagine how you might use the boat. Looking is the fun part. You learn something from every boat you check out.

 

[CarlF]

1970's Defevers were built in Japan and California. Very high construction quality - much less chance of rot. Known for very thick hulls. I believe Lehman engines.

An extra 10 years (between a 1980's boat and a 1970's boat) doesn't make a lot of difference - it's all about how well they have been maintained.

 

[Captain Max]

Re: Pascoe. Here’s a truth. He was so obese that he had to stop doing physical surveys as he could no longer fit in engine rooms, much less tight spaces, so he moved from the Boating Capital of the World (Ft. Lauderdale) to the rural side of Destin Florida , he quit doing surveys then started making a living off of writing books for novice boaters. He’s a good writer, and he certainly poised himself at the crest of the Internet wave, to which I give him kudos as a businessman for riding that wave.
But many of his contemporary surveyors in Ft. Lauderdale flamed him to no end, as people would hire them to go survey vessels Pascoe had “condemned” to find that he had stated totally incorrect tank materials, even wrong engine models amongst other egregious mistakes. Call up Paul Anstey , Ed “no go” (because he flunked so many boats) Roe, or any of the Rhodes Brothers, and ask them yourself.
Surveys are nothing but opinions complete with disclaimers at the end. But in MY OPINION you always want to hire one with good eyesight, with the physical stamina, and yoga like abilities to snake through a boat to see, and touch everything. The guys that just stick digital cameras into tight spaces using only the lights from the camera flash, waiting to go home to see on his monitor what he was supposed to have touched with his hands suck.

Pascoe was very correct in what he saw with his own eyes and actually touched such as boats that were busted up by storms, and were all lined up on the hard with their guts hanging out, that he could finally see what the manufacturers were hiding when they sealed those spaces up. But you do NOT want a fat surveyor! You definitely don’t want one who’s fat and is an alcoholic (that guy in Knoxville!) who shows up late unless you’re the seller of the boat.

If you want information about a boat model just call a surveyor and ask! Any in business for more than 20 years should be able to tell you the latent defects of most every production yacht ever built.

 

[Steve91T]

Our boat is 1986 Marine Trader 47 that’s similar to the Jeffersons you have been considering. We specifically wanted the 3 cabin/2 head layout. The Sundeck is our favorite place to be, we’re out there all the time. For us, this boat is absolutely perfect. It’s excellent in a head sea, terrible in a beam sea. We cruse the east coast ICW so it’s really it a problem for us. We do want to go to the Bahamas someday though. With the cabin lay out, we have a room for our kids and also for guests. We didn’t want someone sleeping on the couch. If we didn’t have young kids; the two cabin lay out would have been good.


We paid low 80’s for our boat. The exterior had just been painted, top to bottom. The interior is in great shape. Not perfect, but good enough. It had zero electronics. VHF and depth finder....that’s it. But the systems all were in great shape.

Our boat has a keel, so running gear is protected. Also really helps in the wind. She really doesn’t get blown around much when docking.

We have twin Lehman 225’s and an 8kw generator. The best I can tell is we burn about 5 gph at 8.5 kts with the genny running.

We have four 150 gallon fuel tanks. I never have more than about 300 gallons on board. Usually half that. If and when a tank starts leaking, I’ll decommission that tank.

We’ve owned this boat for less than 2 years and I maybe have spent $1000 on maintenance. That doesn’t include oil changes or the radar I installed. I had a fresh water pump die. (15 minutes to replace) and just recently had an AC water pump fail. Again that’ll be an easy change. If you can do your own work, it saves buckets of money. We wouldn’t be able to afford the boat if I couldn’t do my own work. It’s enjoyable to me so it’s not a problem.

We did have a small 3” coolant hose split. Slow leak that I didn’t detect until the starboard engine started to get hot. It was really nice having two engines otherwise that hose would have left of stranded. It cost me $1.50 to replace.

Someday I’d like autopilot but that’s down the road.

There’s always a list of things that need to be done. That list is always changing priority. Somethings, like why the windless doesn’t have power, is pretty low on the list. The AC pump is high on the list.

Anyway I hope this helps!

 

[syjos]

Who is Pascoe?

Who is Max?

same guy?

 

[Baker]

Who is Pascoe?

Who is Max?

same guy?

Pascoe is some internet legend that pretty much hates every boat made.

(Captain)Max is one of the posters on here....or at least used to be...

 

[Baker]

Check out the Carver aft cabins. The newer you go, the smaller they get if you are trying to hit a price target. I just sold my Cummins powered 356 for upper 80s. Perfectly decent boat and plenty of room. The 355 is a little older but basically the same boat. The same could be said about the 406 and 405...just bigger. The same again can be said about the 4207/440/445...basically an evolution of the same boat. All can be had with Diesel power. The 4207 came with Cat 3208s or Cummins. The 440 came with Cat 3116/3126s or Cummins 450C. The 445 came mostly with Cummins 450C. These 4207/440/445 boats are BIG boats. I think you would be hard pressed to find a 445 in your price range although I think you might. You can definitely find the other two in your price range. One of the benefits of buying a boat like this is that Carver is still in business. If you have a problem or need a part, you can call them. You can find the parts lists on line with part numbers. ANyway, you can slowboat these things all day if you wish to be fuel efficient. And you can gettyup and go if you need or want to.

 

[Slowmo]

You'll get lots of opinions as to what's 'best'. Probably the answer is that there is no 'best' since a lot depends on the condition of the specific boat. The recommendation of 'North American built' generally refers to the consistency of build quality with brands like Tollycraft, Chris Craft, Hatteras, etc. The Asian (Taiwan) trawlers, especially the older ones, were more variable in quality especially of the fittings. Some also had issues with water getting into the stringers (not good), leaking windows, leaking decks, etc. The Asian boats generally have much nicer interiors with lots of teak. The American built boats had plainer interiors, especially in the late 70's and 80s, which is where you may be for a boat of the size and price point. However they were very solid in terms of hulls and build quality.

The classic good quality Asian boat is the Grand Banks (x-Singapore). Ocean Alexander was one of the first to have a Taiwan trawler with rigorous quality standards applied.

Every boat has things that you need to watch for. I wouldn't necessarily look for the newest, look for a boat that's been well cared for with needed upgrades such as rewired 120V so that it meets newer ABYC (insurance companies may require this for insurance).

A good surveyor knows what to look for. There are a few things you can look for right away including the condition of teak decks, evidence of leakage from windows or the deck, condition of the fuel tanks (original or replaced?), evidence of routine maintenance, has the electrical system been upgraded, etc.

 

[Frosty]

Our boat is 1986 Marine Trader 47 that’s similar to the Jeffersons you have been considering...

...Our boat has a keel, so running gear is protected. Also really helps in the wind. She really doesn’t get blown around much when docking.

I am (or was.... thanks to Covid ) also trawler shopping. I've always figured I'd want a single because, coming from fullish keel sailboats, I'm used to the prop, running gear, and rudder being protected. Most twins I've seen have the shafts, props, and rudders kind of hanging out in the breeze. I do see a number of advantages with twins (and it increases my buying options), and I know many boats successfully cruise with the arrangement but it would make me nervous.

I did see a Cheoy Lee LRC with protected twin running gear but at around 58' way out of my size range.

Anyway, all that to say would you be able to share a photo of your protected twin arrangement? I did try to look one up online but was only able to find the more usual setup (a random MT 47):

 

[Slowmo]

I've had both the single and twin arrangement. Over the course of my boating life only once did we hit something enough to damage the running gear, a deadhead (log). Despite the 'protected' running gear the log managed to hit our prop shaft square on and bend it (after having hit the bow and springing a few planks). The message is that things can happen with either. With a twin the probability damaging both at the same time isn't that high. If you do that you're down to 50% where with a single you might be drifting, though that's worst case.

Personally, I'm less concerned about the exposed running gear on the twin. The security of twin engines increases maintenance cost. If you're comfortable with a single then the cost of mechanical maintenance is much lower and access to the engine is better. The other plus of a single is when you do find something like a GB with a single, they seem to sell at a discount versus the twins. Personally I don't find the difference in maneuverability of a twin to be that big a thing, but for me maneuvering a single is second nature, not so with the twins.

You might keep your options open for either and go with the best boat you find for the size/price range you're looking at.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
"...go with the best boat you find for the size/price range you're looking at." THAT is the best advice and the ultimate bottom line!

 

[Worldhoppers3]

Thank you to the person that suggested reading marine survey 101 - as a potential owner this type of resource is very valuable - to all of us that are lurking and learning these are great nuggets of wisdom hard to find anywhere else!