bitter end of anchor chain

[eyschulman]

For those worried about having to cut the bitter end line in a emergency I offer the following. Use a three plait line and with the line all out weave a small loop into the line where you can cut aft of the loop. Have a float with a magic marker anchor on it and a strong lite line deeper than water with a snap on the end that can be run back through your roller and under any bail on it to snap on the loop. then cut behind the loop and snap and throw float over side.

 

[Bay Pelican]

Ah, bitter end indeed, especially when such a loss is so easily avoided.

Fully agree. Loss could have been avoided. Perhaps this loss will cause others to rethink their efforts at securing the anchor underway.

 

[VJameslanza]

Here goes, my initial public post. (Pause while I wait for applause to die down). I've been reading the anchor/chain/rope posts, and so far, no one has mentioned a small fender on a length of line longer than the depth of the water you're anchoring in at highest tide used as an 'anchor float'. Secured to the crown of the anchor, if you did have to cut the chain/rode, the float would mark the spot and facilitate retrieval.

 

[Tom.B]

I just tied a big-ass knot (think: monkey fist but from someone that can't tie a monkey fist) in very the end of the line part. Now it can't pull thru the hole. Hey, that was easy.

 

[VJameslanza]

I just tied a big-ass knot (think: monkey fist but from someone that can't tie a monkey fist) in very the end of the line part. Now it can't pull thru the hole. Hey, that was easy.

Can't tie a Monkeys Fist?

Join the rest of us who achingly gaze at a perfectly tied MF. Second to that are hemp fenders, which look 'yachtie' as can be, but probably fare poorly against modern fenders.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Alaskan, We carry big bolt cutters too, but having used them once to maul through our G4 chain on the dock just for grins I suggest you try them out before you need them.

1/2" 3 strand polypropylene spliced to our chain's end covers all our contingencies.

Tried them and they work although a little elbow grease is needed.

 

[klee wyck]

But as another data point, 1/2" chain is about 275lbs per 100', so in 100' of water, which is typical anchoring depth in many parts of the PNW, that's 275lbs hanging over the side. I know I couldn't lift that. Two people might be able to to, but probably not my wife and me together.

I have also thought about this a little since I have 1/2" chain and live in the PNW. I want to use the poly line strategy for the bitter end as well as I rework the current anchor system.
First stipulation: In the highly unlikely events described here like accidental deployment, I will be happy to cut the line and take my lumps on the anchor and chain. In the more likely scenario where I just let too much out and chain is off the gypsy, and where in all likely scenarios I do not anchor in over 100', I have used the buoyancy theory to assume that 100 feet of 1/2" chain weighing 250# on dry land weighs more like 160# in saltwater, thus making it possible for myself and the admiral to haul it fairly handily.

Is this not true?

 

[kev_rm]

Tried them and they work although a little elbow grease is needed.

Is there going to be time to do that in heavy winds/current? I've got a solution where the chain will jam coming out at the end but I foresee my deck getting ripped up (or anchor locker) when shxt hits the fan before I can mediate the situation with some bolt cutters.

EDIT: Just being hypothetical here - trying to learn.

 

[dhays]

I have also thought about this a little since I have 1/2" chain and live in the PNW. I want to use the poly line strategy for the bitter end as well as I rework the current anchor system.

First stipulation: In the highly unlikely events described here like accidental deployment, I will be happy to cut the line and take my lumps on the anchor and chain. In the more likely scenario where I just let too much out and chain is off the gypsy, and where in all likely scenarios I do not anchor in over 100', I have used the buoyancy theory to assume that 100 feet of 1/2" chain weighing 250# on dry land weighs more like 160# in saltwater, thus making it possible for myself and the admiral to haul it fairly handily.



Is this not true?

I think the best option is a hybrid. A sort length of line that will stop the chain from going past the gypsy but is exposed above deck for easy access with a sharp knife. Also have a long poly line to provide that maker and retrieval?

 

[klee wyck]

Dhays,

Not much room to work there. Up through the deck from locker, over the gypsy, and back down through the deck into the hawse.
Might be able to get a blade in there......

 

[twistedtree]

I have used the buoyancy theory to assume that 100 feet of 1/2" chain weighing 250# on dry land weighs more like 160# in saltwater, thus making it possible for myself and the admiral to haul it fairly handily.

Is this not true?

Yes, good point. I don't know how the math works out, but it's definitely lighter in water than in air. Do you think 160 lbs is an accurate number?

 

[sunchaser]

Yes, good point. I don't know how the math works out, but it's definitely lighter in water than in air. Do you think 160 lbs is an accurate number?

The SG of steel and iron is 7.85 in air. Subtract 1.0 for weighing in fresh water. This then drops immersed chain weight by a factor of 6.85/7.85. Still tiring and largely impossible to hand pull an all chain rode onto the deck for most of us.

 

[eyschulman]

Yes, good point. I don't know how the math works out, but it's definitely lighter in water than in air. Do you think 160 lbs is an accurate number?

The only problem is that the weight of the anchor has to be added plus a big wad of heavy mud and I am not talking theory here just plain experience. Boats over 40 foot long with heavy anchors and chain in deep water >50 feet may be more than a mom and pop team can handle. Then there is the possibility of throwing the back out and ruining the rest of the trip. I keep a three part handy billy with a chain hook on one end and a line on the other and use a mid ship cleat to haul on the chain. After each haul in I use another chain hook and short line to hold my gains from slipping back. Its slow but gets the job done.

 

[klee wyck]

Yeah, steel is 490# per cubic foot as it turns out and sea water is only 64.5# so buoyancy will not help much at all as it will only reduce the weight by about 15%. Sunchaser has it right.

 

[dhays]

Dhays,



Not much room to work there. Up through the deck from locker, over the gypsy, and back down through the deck into the hawse.

Might be able to get a blade in there......

How is the process of prepping the boat for US waters going? Sure looks like a wonderful vessel.

 

[Peter B]

Here goes, my initial public post. (Pause while I wait for applause to die down). I've been reading the anchor/chain/rope posts, and so far, no one has mentioned a small fender on a length of line longer than the depth of the water you're anchoring in at highest tide used as an 'anchor float'. Secured to the crown of the anchor, if you did have to cut the chain/rode, the float would mark the spot and facilitate retrieval.

Welcome, and congrats on your first post. I think the reason that your post was followed by silence is that actually, what you describe is already a well-recognised way of marking where your anchor is, and to be used to retrieve a fouled anchor in modest depths, (which is where most of us anchor), and it is perfectly feasible if one can be bothered. However, there are downsides. The kerfuffle setting it up each time & getting the float fouled around your own or someone else's prop being just a couple.

However in very deep water, where a full run-out is most serious, duplicating the rode with another with a float is just not practical. However, taking part of your idea, having a float with a short line attached stowed near the windlass could work well as something to quickly attach to the line locating the bitter end in the locker, before that line is cut to release the anchor in an emergency, so the end could be found to retrieve the anchor and rode later. Again, only feasible in modest depths. In very deep water the combined weight of rode and anchor would just drag anything but a huge jumbo float right under.

Hence why most folk do neither, but certainly having a short hook snubber, (as I previously described in post 18), to clip onto the chain when the anchor is stowed, for all but the shortest passages, makes good sense to prevent an inadvertent run-out of the anchor and rode.

 

[Bay Pelican]

I've been reading the anchor/chain/rope posts, and so far, no one has mentioned a small fender on a length of line longer than the depth of the water you're anchoring in at highest tide used as an 'anchor float'. Secured to the crown of the anchor, if you did have to cut the chain/rode, the float would mark the spot and facilitate retrieval.

Anchor floats are frequently used here in the Eastern Caribbean. No so much to retrieve the anchor as to advise others where the person's anchor is located. There are so many boats anchored that boats are frequently floating on top of the following boats anchor or chain. Yesterday had to move Bay Pelican 100 feet forward to allow the boat behind to weigh anchor. Following custom we were advised the day before to be ready at first light.

 

[kev_rm]

The only problem is that the weight of the anchor has to be added plus a big wad of heavy mud and I am not talking theory here just plain experience. Boats over 40 foot long with heavy anchors and chain in deep water >50 feet may be more than a mom and pop team can handle. Then there is the possibility of throwing the back out and ruining the rest of the trip. I keep a three part handy billy with a chain hook on one end and a line on the other and use a mid ship cleat to haul on the chain. After each haul in I use another chain hook and short line to hold my gains from slipping back. Its slow but gets the job done.

We may have gotten off track here, the scenario is lifting the end of the chain up to gypsy.. so assuming you have > 1:1 scope, and in my post its an all chain rode so assume so... ergo just the weight of chain in a particular depth of water. 50' of 3/8 would be ~60-70# in water.

 

[psneeld]

sorry this is a stupid question - if I want an all chain rode, i'm looking at my complete guide to anchoring which suggests lashing the bitter end to a structural member in the locker area... but I might actually want to be able to get rid of it from up on deck, and I might also want to get rid of it with a float for later retrieval.. so does having a length (say 100') of some lightweight rope/rode to be able to cut from on deck and if needed attach a float to make sense?

Yes....

Everyone has their "theory" on what might happen in emergencies and how to best deal with them.

Like many topics on TF......

Some set up for everything including the million and one emergency which makes that one easy but the 1 in 10 emergency way harder or complicated to deal with.

Some have backup systems or methods possible to retrieve the anchor during tough conditions, others are satisfied to lose the tackle and come back when things settle down, but yes might inclue the float, line or buoy missing.

Bottom line, no pun intended, very few to none shackle or bolt their chain to the boat.

Most have a short or long, floating or sinking, spliced/tied on with or without pretied bouy loop between the end of the chain and the boat.

You select the method based on what possible scenarios are "possible" or "probable" ....based on your risk tolerance.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Is there going to be time to do that in heavy winds/current? I've got a solution where the chain will jam coming out at the end but I foresee my deck getting ripped up (or anchor locker) when shxt hits the fan before I can mediate the situation with some bolt cutters.

EDIT: Just being hypothetical here - trying to learn.

PFD on and the Admiral at the helm long enough to cut the chain.

 

[twistedtree]

Yes....



Everyone has their "theory" on what might happen in emergencies and how to best deal with them.



Like many topics on TF......



Some set up for everything including the million and one emergency which makes that one easy but the 1 in 10 emergency way harder or complicated to deal with.



Some have backup systems or methods possible to retrieve the anchor during tough conditions, others are satisfied to lose the tackle and come back when things settle down, but yes might inclue the float, line or buoy missing.



Bottom line, no pun intended, very few to none shackle or bolt their chain to the boat.



Most have a short or long, floating or sinking, spliced/tied on with or without pretied bouy loop between the end of the chain and the boat.



You select the method based on what possible scenarios are "possible" or "probable" ....based on your risk tolerance.

You mean we should stop flogging the dead horse? What fun would that be?

 

[Earrame]

Ah, bitter end indeed, especially when such a loss is so easily avoided. Clearly they did not routinely take the simple precaution of clipping a short snubber via simple but stout hook onto the chain when the anchor is stowed for any more than short passage. See below for my set-up...the second pic shows the hook disengaged from the chain. The line used does not have to be all that heavy, and is tied off at the Samson Post. Oh, and that swivel has since been removed as redundant and a potential weak point, and the last chain shackle has been renewed.

Hi PeterB, when ditching the swivel did you also ditch the stainless shackle and go straight to the anchor with the galvanised shackle? Presume you did as you have a very good anchor and that SS shackle is probably a (very) weak point. Also it's important that the shackle has a load capacity as close to the chain as possible ....weakest link etc etc.
I might also respectfully suggest you mouse the anchor shackle to stop the pin undoing.

 

[BruceK]

Welcome aboard Earrame! I saw your first post directed to Peter.
If it helps,I have a Sarca too,and use a Ronstan long D ss shackle. It comes with a rating, unlike some,was not cheap but well worth it, and has given no concerns.
Hope you enjoy TF.

 

[Peter B]

So many folk worry about my tackle...I mean shackle. Most have no idea exactly what the manufacturers recommendations are for this assembly, as they don't know anything about the Super Sarca.

For the record...up to the size 6 version (22kg) I have, a stainless shackle is recommended, (of sufficient strength of course - mine is damn near double the chain link diameter), by Rex Francis, the manufacturer, in order for it to slide in the slot properly when the trip mechanism is required. Rex says probably from size 7 up, a galvanised shackle of suitable strength is ok, because the sheer weight of it all will ensure correct action.

 

[Earrame]

Thanks Bruce. I'm finding it very interesting and informative.
Ive always avoided anything SS in an anchoring system because of work hardening and so on, and have also understood that a bow shackle between chain and anchor allows better angles between them than would a D shackle.
Anyway, FWIW......

 

[FF]

Our method of using an anchor float is a 3/8 line to the anchor crown about 40-50 ft long passed thry a bail on a red floating ball that ends with a sounding lead.

Its simply left on deck and the lead is ready for use at all times.

With 40 ft of line the lead will sink to the bottom in shallow water and still give a good anchor location . Once the water depth lifts the lead the ball is directly over the anchor.(no fierce current).

3/8 line is strong enough to pull most stuck anchors with the windlass.

 

[Gordon J]

I have been a boater for going on 20 years, and can easily imagine that the windlass might break or that a chain might get away. On my boat, the chain locker is accessible through a set of double doors in the peak guest room.

The previous owner of the boat tied the better end of the chain with a 2 foot section of line, obviously not long enough to reach the windlass. I am trying to imagine an emergency so dire that I would not have time to go to the peak and cut the 2 foot section of line. I know that as someone else mentioned earlier, many of us like to prepare for that one in 1 million chance, but I am wondering why I need to have a line on the foredeck. When I think of the hundreds of times I have anchored, I probably had a knife in my pocket once or twice. So imagine having an emergency And needing to cut the line. I would have to run to find a knife and then go back to the Bow. I can't imagine that would be easier than cutting the line in the peak. Using such a short line means the chain is always on deck and I need not worry how to pull in a few feet of line.

Can someone give me an example of such an emergency?

Thanks,

Gordon

 

[psneeld]

Usually a single emergency is not the issue.

Usually complex situations can be dealt with in different ways....but letting go all your chain has occurred enough to be a concern for me.

Inventing scenarios and trying to keep them under a page isn't possible for my writing skills.

But rushing below and scrambling with a knife into a confined area can have its own set if issues....none pretty.

I choose the on deck cutting scenario based on my own mental pictures, experience and reading the emergencies of others....but that doesn't make it the correct or only answer.

 

[dhays]

Our method of using an anchor float is a 3/8 line to the anchor crown about 40-50 ft long passed thry a bail on a red floating ball that ends with a sounding lead.

Its simply left on deck and the lead is ready for use at all times.

With 40 ft of line the lead will sink to the bottom in shallow water and still give a good anchor location . Once the water depth lifts the lead the ball is directly over the anchor.(no fierce current).

3/8 line is strong enough to pull most stuck anchors with the windlass.

I like this idea, simple and effective. I purchased an anchor buoy last summer that I used extensively. I got it through a discount from a TF member. It works great. Easy to use, effective, simple.
http://www.defender.com/images/550861.jpg

The only draw back is that it will not retrieve the ancho should it become fouled. Most of the time this is not an issue, but I did anchor in some locations where snags were common and the lack made me a bit nervous. Your solution seems simple, effective, and cheap.

If you ever have a photo of your setup, it would be nice to see.

 

[dhays]

When I think of the hundreds of times I have anchored, I probably had a knife in my pocket once or twice. So imagine having an emergency And needing to cut the line. I would have to run to find a knife and then go back to the Bow. I can't imagine that would be easier than cutting the line in the peak. Using such a short line means the chain is always on deck and I need not worry how to pull in a few feet of line.

I can't give you an example of an emergency I have experienced. Maybe from so many years as a sailor, but I almost always have a good knife in my pocket when on the boat. Just a habit. There are also three very good knives in the drawer in the PH, easily at hand. Two of those have serrated blades that, while a pain to sharpen, will cut through a line quickly.

Every configuration is different but you only need a few inches of exposed line above deck to be able to cut it.

Now, having said that, it is not something I worry about a lot. I have owned my boat for less than a year. This is one of the many things that I have yet to change. I will eventually, but it hasn't been super high on my list.