Boat fire at Fort Pierce City Marina

[Fletcher500]

There are so many more gas boats so you do have to pick through the statistics more carefully. I cant say what percentage of fuel started fires are directly attributable to its flashpoint.

Sure gas is more dangerous by nature, but gas boats are usually only more dangerous if operated or maintained improperly.

No need to be afraid of them, just careful.

An enclosed space with gasoline and electrical components, is more dangerous than the same enclosed space with a boat that has diesel. That is a fact.

 

[Fletcher500]

Looked to me like just a quint squirting water thru a rubber hose.

Where did I state in my previous post that anyone was applying a hose stream in this fire? If you are going to quote me, let’s at least be accurate.

 

[psneeld]

An enclosed space with gasoline and electrical components, is more dangerous than the same enclosed space with a boat that has diesel. That is a fact.

dont disagree, just use useful, not random stats.

most stats that are analyzed versus just reported show a completely different story for specific situations rather than general situations.

ie.... gas boats above/ below a certain size, age, years of owner experience, outboard, inboard, I/O, when/whete fire started, why, etc, etc....

narrow those stats to a boaters particular situation and they barely start to get useful.

again, sure gas is a more dangerous fuel....but ABYC only suggests how to make it idiot proof, not get rid of it.... how much more conservative can you get than ABYC... even the USCG that suggests you wear PFDs all the time is behind ABYC in overcontrolling our boating lives.

but in reality for most boaters who have survived gas boats for 50 plus years, they would chuckle at this fearmongering...except its a norm on TF.

 

[Donna]

I think the problem is there are about 12 different accounts of what actually happened. I have been following this story on several news agencies. “People in the water, no people in the water, only 2 onboard, several onboard, some in the water, etc.” I saw no evidence that supports mangos claim of rescuing anyone from the bow as stated in their release. So, what really happened? I have no clue. Was there propane onboard? Did the gas engine explode? Was it human error? Was it mechanical? Too many questions and accounts of what may have happened.

 

[Fletcher500]

PS, I am not saying all gas boats are dynamite and will explode, and I definitely don’t espouse the fear mongering route. The fact is, the gas boat owner has a heck of a better chance being killed during his drive to the marina as opposed to being on his boat. Most TF people are careful and would take the needed precautions. The problem is the GP with gas boats often don’t, so they are more at risk. I have personally seen the results as well.

 

[Comodave]

Not saying gas isn’t safe, but speaking from direct personal experience. In the CG Aux boat crew program to qualify as crew you used to use a fire extinguisher to put out a fire. We would go to a local FD and they floated some diesel on water, similar to a boat leaking fuel, they tried for about 15 minutes to light the diesel. Tried matches and finally used a road flare. The diesel would not light cold. I suggested putting an ounce of gas in the pan. The fire chief said it was too dangerous. After trying everything we could think of he finally put an ounce of gas in the pan. It went up like a flare. We would use an extinguisher and put it out person by person. Yes after the initial start, the hot diesel would reignite with the road flare. At the time I owned a gas powered boat. I had already been careful about fumes, after this demonstration I was really really careful with venting the bilge, etc. i am very glad that we now have a diesel powered boat. Yes we could still have a fire, but the likelihood is much less.

 

[psneeld]

not really....the possibility might be less but "much less" is a stretch in my opinion....the way boat fires start is not the same as throwing a match in a pan.

CAREFULLY. analyze the stats at several levels, not the idiotic single level they are published at.

 

[Comodave]

I didn’t say it was the same thing as throwing a match into gas. I was comparing the relative ease of ignition of the two fuels. I never said gas was not safe. However if you do get a spark in the engine room, I would rather have it in my diesel boat than in one of my many previous gas powered boats. I have witnessed a boat explosion first hand. It was determined to be a bad electrical connection in the engine compartment. It killed 4 people and injured another 4. Strangely 3 people had no injuries of any significance. Is it one in a thousand or one in a million, I am not an actuarial so I don’t know. But I do know that diesel boats are safer. Ask your insurance company. Are gas boats not safe, not necessarily.

 

[Gmarr]

If insurance companies thought the odds were against gas engines on boats, we’d see it in rates- though since there are hundreds of thousands of them, it appears the odds are in the insurance companies favor?

 

[Fletcher500]

PS- your initial comments about this situation were good, but now you are making general statements regarding the technical aspects of an area you are not fully versed in. Google lower explosive limit (LEL) of gasoline in an enclosed space and the difference between fire point, flash point, and auto ignition temp of various types of fuels. You are asking about statistics of gas boats that may, or may not be available. I can tell you from 30 years as a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) in Fire Protection that the hazard is greater. I base this from my personal experience working with large scale industrial shore side projects many of which involved flammable liquids, as well as other special hazards. I am going to guess you will dismiss this as well, so I will tap out at this point.

 

[ssobol]

Do the people who profess that diesel is the only way to go on their boats feel the same way on the vehicles they drive?

In most cases, I bet they don't. Why might that be?

 

[psneeld]

PS- your initial comments about this situation were good, but now you are making general statements regarding the technical aspects of an area you are not fully versed in. Google lower explosive limit (LEL) of gasoline in an enclosed space and the difference between fire point, flash point, and auto ignition temp of various types of fuels. You are asking about statistics of gas boats that may, or may not be available. I can tell you from 30 years as a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) in Fire Protection that the hazard is greater. I base this from my personal experience working with large scale industrial shore side projects many of which involved flammable liquids, as well as other special hazards. I am going to guess you will dismiss this as well, so I will tap out at this point.

well .....based on my 40 years plus as a pro in boating rescue operations, I have seen plenty of diesel boats catch fire, know why and as an aviation safety pro, understand causal factors in accidents and misused statistics. Plain chemistry explains a lot, but is not often listed as causal factors in accidents.

not so good with industrial stuff, but I know boats....

 

[Comodave]

Do the people who profess that diesel is the only way to go on their boats feel the same way on the vehicles they drive?

In most cases, I bet they don't. Why might that be?

Because in cars when gas leaks, it just goes down on the pavement and evaporates.

 

[Comodave]

Maybe I missed something, but as I read one account of the incident, it was reported that the boat exploded. That is the difference between gas and diesel boats. If you get gas fumes or have a leak, an explosion is possible. If you have a diesel leak, you generally have a mess to clean up, unless the diesel happens to spray onto a hot turbo. Diesel does not readily catch fire and explode. Apparently in this particular case, the gas boat did explode. I guess that is the point that I have been trying to make. Oh well, if I was not clear, my bad.

 

[psneeld]

I have seen way more car fires than boat fires and I have been working on, over or around the water for 40+ years...and drive less than 3000 miles annually for the last 20 years.

please let the myth go.....lack of common sense, lack of proper maintenance, improper operation or materials, a hundred other things cause gas boats to catch fire or explode.

We all know the characteristics of both fuels...BUT....

Just having gas aboard or using it as fuel is NOT the real problem.

 

[Comodave]

Ok, you kept bringing up stats, how many cars are there versus how many boats. I didn’t bring up cars someone else did. Apples and oranges. I never said or implied that just having gas onboard made a boat dangerous. I have owned way more gas powered boats than diesel powered boats. I said gas was more easily ignited than diesel. If you can not accept that as a fact then we can not carry on a discussion. Sorry.

 

[BruceK]

Do the people who profess that diesel is the only way to go on their boats feel the same way on the vehicles they drive?

In most cases, I bet they don't. Why might that be?

I do,but it`s more engine performance, heaps of torque, than fire risk. But as you raise it, I did experience a Mazda Rotary gas fuel fire.
And I was involved in the ugly aftermath of a gas powered boat explosion.
I far prefer diesel.

 

[psneeld]

pretty much every post since #29 of mine, I agreed gas could be more dangerous because of its characteristics....

but using it as a fuel doesnt make it dangerous by default.... which was my point, and those that talk numbers (stats) need to put them in perspective.

maybe it wasnt me that was missing a point....

just trying to be fair and keep TFers from walking away from gas boats just because they are gas.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Until such time as a thorough investigation is completed and reported on, I'm holding off on speculating what the actual cause of this fire was. Since the thread has drifted onto a gas vs. diesel issue...

As Mr. ps stated (post #48) "... fuel doesnt make it dangerous by default.". Our "big" boat is diesel. Our "small" boat is gas. I feel no less safe in the gas boat than the diesel. I will admit to being much more aware of the potential dangers inherent in the gas boat and as a result tend to be extremely vigilant regarding ANY gas odors and fuel system integrity. Is it any more work to be so? A bit, but not really any inconvenience.

Perhaps the fact that during my working career the main "tool" used during completion of my tasks was FIRE, fueled by flammable gases (propane, CNG, hydrogen, acetylene) and use of flammable solvents (hydrocarbons, alcohols etc.) I'm probably significantly more anal than the average boater regarding the danger. No oily rags or detritus anywhere aboard (spontaneous combustion). Very regular inspections of ER spaces. Strict refueling practices. Proper ventilation. etc.

 

[JLD]

just a reminder, most boat fires srart from electrical issues, not fuel related.

once a fire starts, doesnt matter if gas or diesel.

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2015/december/causes-of-boat-fires.asp

Thanks for the link, interesting article!

Once a fire starts, there is a lot of combustible material on a boat, aside from the fuels.

Jim

 

[psneeld]

Thanks for the link, interesting article!

Once a fire starts, there is a lot of combustible material on a boat, aside from the fuels.

Jim

Thank you... a big chunk of my point...

 

[nodestination]

After my own personal experience - I stay away from gas boats. The closer is 10 slips away from me. Even the experience one are making mistakes and other boats are lost.
Gas boats are dangerous.

 

[psneeld]

yep, just heard all marinas are banning them....and insurance companies want nothing to do with them...and businesses are converting fleets to diesel... yep, big changes ahead....

 

[BandB]

yep, just heard all marinas are banning them....and insurance companies want nothing to do with them...and businesses are converting fleets to diesel... yep, big changes ahead....

And no more boating allowed on inland lakes as the lake I boated on all my life until 2012 doesn't even have any diesel sold on the lake.

Also the same senator who is presenting a bill saying it's illegal to put dogs in the overhead bin is presenting one to phase out not only gas car engines but also electric as he just read that most fires in homes are electric so he figured that would cause car fires too.

 

[Benthic2]

Everyone will agree that gasoline is more flammable than diesel fuel, so given a perfect storm of events ( fuel leak, poor ventilation, +spark) a diesel boat will fare better than a gas boat. HOWEVER...the incidence rate of that occuring is so small as to be insignificant.

Sure, most boat fires are on gas powered boats, but the overwhelming majority of boats are gas powered, so unless you have a lot of data, and a lot of time, that statistic is meaningless.

If you have some common sense, maintain your boat, and use good judgement there is no reason to fear a gas boat. A gas boat operated by an idiot and poorly maintained might be dangerous...but it is the idiocy and the negligence that are creating the danger, not the fuel.

 

[sunchaser]

The worst marina fires I have seen first hand involved nothing but diesel powered boats. The most disastrous being Portland 2006 February when about 15 large yachts went up.

 

[BruceK]

...If you have some common sense, maintain your boat, and use good judgement there is no reason to fear a gas boat. A gas boat operated by an idiot and poorly maintained might be dangerous...but it is the idiocy and the negligence that are creating the danger, not the fuel.

There is a gas boat 3 slips away. Recently it docked, we helped as is our marina custom,I could smell, strongly, unburned gasoline. Possibly unburned fuel on the water, possibly something else. I mentioned it to the owner, suggesting it needed checking.
We are subject to the maintenance diligence standards of others. As are others in relation to our own standards. But, IMO,gasoline poses a special risk,calling for extra vigilance.

 

[psneeld]

if we start talking "other boats" at the marina..... then fuel is important to be alert for, but your biggest risk from neighboring bost in the US is electrical fires.

Then.....even the exlosion hazard in my experience comes from propane, not engine fuel.

 

[CMS]

just a reminder, most boat fires srart from electrical issues, not fuel related.

once a fire starts, doesnt matter if gas or diesel.

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2015/december/causes-of-boat-fires.asp

While this "explosion" will likely wind up in the "gasoline" blame category, in the USCG stats, the reality is that it is most likely an electrical issue on the ignition side....

Gas boats need IP rated fuses, chargers, blowers, switches, starters, alternators etc. etc. etc., and very few do.

I can't even begin to count the sheer number of non-IP rated components including, chargers, fuses, non-marine starters, alternators etc. that I see in gas engine compartments. When I query the owner I often get; "I don't believe in that "marine" mark-up BS."..

Well, when you're in the hospital, looking like shish-kabob, we'll talk again then......

Unless the guy was smoking a butt, I would guess the boat, electrically speaking, would not have met the standards for ignition protection.... Chicken/egg or electrical / gas....??

We should keep in mind that there are hundreds of thousands more gasoline powered boats out there than diesel, yet electrical fires are still the #1 cause of fires on boats. I my opinion the stats for electrically caused fires are actually under stated because many incidents, perhaps even this one, started or get ignited with an improper electrical system.

One of the worst marina fires in the US is believed to be have been started by a shore power inlet, with a design, that dates back to 1938..........

 

[Moonstruck]

Statement from Last Mango. I do not know anyone involved, a good friend from Fort Pierce sent this to me.

Close call for the Last Mango this evening. The ‘Gypsy Tours’ boat, powered by a 350hp gasoline engine and docks on our north side, pulled into her slip today around 5:300PM and proceeded to blow up and then burn to the waterline. 1st Mate Joey Mariano and Capt Rich of Fins Sportfishing saved the Mango from certain destruction by getting her out of her slip immediately after the Gypsy exploded. Their actions were at great risk to themselves and they are the heroes of the day!!!
Our port side windows melted and I’m not sure how our brand new Awl Grip paint job faired but all in all we lucked out.
Joeys face was slightly burned as he slipped off the dock lines on the fire side. The Captain of Gypsy Tours in hospital! Passengers of Gypsy Tours were still on board and explosion knocked at least two in the water. Before moving the Mango to safety and while the Gypsy was engulfed in flames, 1st Joey Mariano saved another passenger who trapped on the bow of the Gypsy by somehow hauling him to safety across a substantial space.
The Viking boat in the slip on the other side of Gypsy was not moved and sustained significant damage as #firefighters contained the blaze. If not for them the whole dock could have easily gone up in flames one boat at a time.

I do know Capt. Tris of the Last Mango, and I am acquainted with Capt. Rich of Fins. They are the two most successful charter boats at FPCM. For Rich to run over to save his chief competitors boat shows the quality of person he is. As neither of the captains are given to BS, I will take Capt. Rich's word about the mate rescuing one from the burning boat. There is a short finger pier between the two boats. The Gypsy Tours boat is probably around 30'. This would make it possible to snatch someone over to the end of the pier.

How do I know. I don't, but the Gypsy Tours boat is in Moonstruck's old slip before moving to the new floating docks. However, I do know both the captains involved to be high caliber people.