Boat Shopping, Bayliner 4788?

[Beaverlake]

I speak not as the owner if a Willard full displacement Trawler, but as a past delivery skipper and instructor. I was a core presenter at trawler fests for several years in the late 1990s and early 2000s and met a lot of people, drove a lot of boats. 100s of not 1000s.

I like the Bayliner 45/47 and also like the 38xx and, to some extent, the 32xx, but they are lightweight boats that are at the mercy of wind. They are relatively low profile boats so not like a Carver or Silverton, but they are also lighter.

If there's wind, these boats start moving sideways pretty fast. Bow thrusters are often undersized. I remember a very expensive Italian go-fast 60-footer I was bringing into the fuel dock at Astoria OR that is roughly similar in style as this bayliner. In 25 kts, I could not get the bow through the wind. It ended well, but it wasn't pretty.

You have to be mindful of the boat and the conditions. I stand by my guidance. Careful of wind.

Peter

Points well taken Peter and based on meaningful experience. Thanks for taking my “umbridge” in the spirit it was offered.

 

[mvweebles]

I'm a big proponent of bow thrusters. The most expensive boat to own is the one that sits unused. In many areas, afternoon winds are strong enough that they give the average large boat owner pause about going out.

My comments about handling in wind should have been more universal. The Bayliner 45/47 (indeed all their motoryacht style boats) are designed to be lightweight and efficient at higher speeds. As such, wind will have an outsized affect on close quarter maneuvers. In some parts of the country, slips have short walkways so boats are customarily backed into their slip. For these boats without side decks, the addition of a stern station or other remote control is another upgrade that would reduce the stress of using the boat.

To the plus side of the design category, I would expect the boat to handle a moderate seaway remarkably well. She's low and beamy. That said, I would not be surprised if the boat were vulnerable to spray penetration. Best solution is to stay out of wind driven headseas which is generally good advice anyway.

I really do like the design of this era Bayliner motoryacht. I'm even a fan of the full width salon vs side decks. I can figure out how to scurry through a salon to tend lines - I can't figure out how to turn side decks into living space. These boats are extremely well suited to how most people actually use their boat vs how they'd like to use their boat. By far my greatest criticism was the cramped engine space, a byproduct of the low profile of the boat (a design tradeoff my full displacement Willard 36 shares which coincidentally was designed by Bill Garden who also contributed to Bayliner designs around this time) . I cannot imagine doing much work there.

In closing, I'll say my biggest takeaway about my weekend with the young family aboard their Bayliner (not sure if it was a 45 or 47) is that Blaine WA is tough duty. Plenty of wind and current at the Docks. Not a lot of boats getting used. It certainly got my attention.

Overall, as a guy with a lot of passion around boats and who happened to have been lucky enough to make a living as a delivery skipper for a while, I like the design of these Bayliners. I have no knowledge of build quality or other considerations which I'm sure are well known and discussed by owners groups. Thinking of it, I'm actually a bit surprised the designs were not knocked-off more, especially the 32xx/38xx.

Peter

 

[smitty477]

Back when I was full time delivering and such, a young couple who had a 45 or 47 (I don't remember) flew me from SF to Blaine WA to spend a weekend helping them with close quarter maneuvers. Now, Blaine is tough duty - lots of current and lots of wind. I had my hands full.

I also did similar lessons on similar vessels. A Bluewater 52 comes to kind, though it has less hull in the water than the Bayliner.

Peter

I guess you are aware that the hulls are very different below the waterline between the 45 and 47 then correct?
That would mean that it really matters which one you were working with quite a bit - and what props were on that boat.
But if you ever need help manuevers with these boats I am sure one of us that have owned one would be happy to help out.

 

[smitty477]

Back when I was full time delivering and such, a young couple who had a 45 or 47 (I don't remember) flew me from SF to Blaine WA to spend a weekend helping them with close quarter maneuvers. Now, Blaine is tough duty - lots of current and lots of wind. I had my hands full.

I also did similar lessons on similar vessels. A Bluewater 52 comes to kind, though it has less hull in the water than the Bayliner.

Peter

"I also did similar lessons on similar vessels. A Bluewater 52 comes to kind, though it has less hull in the water than the Bayliner."
I do not believe Bluewater made a 52 but we have cruissed with a Bluewater 48 Coastal cruiser and it is very different from the 47 Bayliner . It is gas powered and has slightly more than 1/2 the draft (1' 10") and 2/3rds the weight with the largest differences being in the hull bottom and freeboard which is very low.
The Bluewater is mostly seen in rivers bays and lakes around here on the east coast and our friends with the 48 do not go out past the bays when the seas are up.

 

[mvweebles]

I do not believe Bluewater made a 52 but we have cruissed with a Bluewater 48 Coastal cruiser and it is very different from the 47 Bayliner

Possible this is advertised incorrectly, but a quick google of Bluewater 52 turns-up this boat which, to my defense, I noted had less hull in the water when I referenced it. The one I spent a day on giving lessons was in Alameda CA (San Francisco Bay). I don't know - I don't track the models within brand line-ups very closely and in the end, it doesn't really matter. In a crosswind at slow speed, the Bluewater may be a bit more skittish than the Bayliner but they're in the same zip-code. I'm sure the Carver aficionados could go chapter/verse on difference to a Silverton despite their overt similarities. Sort of a Ford vs Chevy thing I suppose.

All I can tell you is I've driven and docked a lot of boats. In addition to deliveries, I used to arrange boats for the boat shows at Jack London Square in Oakland which means some pretty impossible shoe-horn fits that I never really got good at. And I used to drive an 82-foot/75 passenger dinner cruise boat in SF Bay with about a half dozen drop-off/pick-ups a day. After a while you get a pretty good feel for what to expect before you turn the key. In the big scheme of different boats, I doubt there's a discernible difference between docking a Bayliner 45 vs a 47 compared to the differences between a Bayliner 47 vs a Nordhavn 47. The OP asked about single-handing/docking so I offered an opinion. Take it for what it's worth. If he'd asked about a displacement boat, my guidance would have been different.

Clearly I waded into a sensitive subject. I have no knowledge that there's anything wrong with a Bayliner 45/47 or any other Bayliner. All I can speak to with knowledge and experience is that a boat of that design is skittish in a cross wind. I use a Dixie Cup on water metaphor. I think most understand the hyperbole, but apparently not owners of Bayliner 45/47s. Apologies.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

The Bluewater 52 definitely exists, there's one locally here. Seeing it out of the water combined with the super low freeboard and tons of glass just above that low deckline left me thinking "holy crap I don't even want to be near that on a windy or choppy day, let alone on it". Heck, it's a 52 footer that draws maybe 2 - 2.5 feet (prop pockets) and has a beaching ladder on the bow...

My boat is probably similar to the Bayliner in terms of windage vs boat in the water, having a moderately high windage superstructure for the size, shallow V hull with a bit of keel, no prop pockets, etc. In general, the hulls don't look all that different below the waterline. The Bayliner is a little lighter and a little narrower relative to its length, but not dramatically. And if the published draft spec is accurate, it's probably got similar draft with a real-world load.

Compared to something like the Bluewater, the bit of keel, extra draft and lack of prop pockets (more prop walk to help maneuvering) makes a big difference. My boat (or the Bayliner) will get blown around plenty, but it's well within what you can control with the engines, etc. Once you have a feel for it, it's not bad at all, you just learn which ways of presenting the boat to the wind work better, how quickly you have to do things, etc.

On my boat, with twin engines and no bowthruster, I can bring the bow into the wind just fine in 25 kts starting sideways to the wind. And that's just spinning in place, not moving forward. And my bow gets blown off the wind quite badly. Judging by the shape of it, the Bayliner shouldn't be any worse there. It doesn't have the heavily cut away forefoot of a Sea Ray or similar, so while it won't have the lateral grip of a deep draft boat with a big keel, it's got enough that it'll move predictably and can be maneuvered pretty well once you know how it behaves. You just can't go for the sailboat type maneuver of crawl slowly and mostly ignore the wind unless it's pretty much dead calm.

 

[Seevee]

Regarding the comments about going out in the wind....


I'm hoping that the 4788 will be as good, but most likely better than my 400 Mainship in "getting out in the wind".



I like to go when I want to, the only time I won't dispatch is in a thunderstorm, nasty front pushing thru or just damn cold. My biggest issue is just getting off my dock, turning the boat around without hitting my neighbors boat. If the cross wind exceeds 20 knots, I won't do it in the single engine Mainship, perhaps the 4788 with twins (and a thruster) would do better, we'll see.


I also won't dispatch into deteriorating weather... I want to see some "improving" trend.



Once into the intercoastal, it's reasonable protected from really nasty winds and waves.... but can be a handful at times.

 

[mvweebles]

And my bow gets blown off the wind quite badly. Judging by the shape of it, the Bayliner shouldn't be any worse there. It doesn't have the heavily cut away forefoot of a Sea Ray or similar, so while it won't have the lateral grip of a deep draft boat with a big keel, it's got enough that it'll move predictably and can be maneuvered pretty well once you know how it behaves. You just can't go for the sailboat type maneuver of crawl slowly and mostly ignore the wind unless it's pretty much dead calm.

In my mind, your CC 38-footer is in a slightly different group that I'd include classic motoryachts such as Hatt, Viking, Uniflite, and many, many others - they are significantly heavier than the lightweight boats like Bayliners. You have more time before wind starts to move them (though once you lose them to the wind, it's done - have to back-out and reload). For example, a Hatt 48 MY is 45k lbs, the Bayliner 4788 is 30k lbs, and the Bluewater 47 is also listed at 30k lbs. By the numbers, pretty similar (deep-vee, 6-7 degrees deadrise. Draw just over 3-1/2 feet except the Bluewater at 2-feet) but due to difference in weight, they will respond differently. You have more time to react in a heavier boat. For single handing, that's important. I'm not saying its a deal killer, it's just a fact that can't be ignored.

Hat's off to you if you are comfortable rotating your bow through the eye of the wind in 25-kts. You are right about the cutaway forefoot on SeaRays and the like - they can definitely stall when trying to rotate through the eye of a high wind.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

My boat is definitely heavier for its size than the Bayliner or Bluewater, but nowhere near Hatteras territory. Dry weight for the Bayliner is listed at just under 30k, mine is listed as 21,600. I figure I'm about 26k loaded, the Bayliner is probably about 38k loaded (bigger tanks and likely more general stuff on a bigger boat). If we use the sailboat type D/L ratio, the Bayliner is definitely lighter (D/L of 308 for my boat, 199 for the Bayliner).

Because of that, I'd expect the Bayliner to respond faster to wind input, but also respond faster to engine input. So everything will have to be done a bit faster and more immediately, but the overall behavior shouldn't be any worse (the windage vs hull below waterline ratio is visually similar). And with a full enough forefoot and adequate power, the Bayliner should also be able to force the bow into the wind well enough either rotating in place or moving forward. The Sea Ray types with limited prop walk from tunnels and the lack of forefoot sometimes lose the bow downwind so fast that unless you're moving forward quickly and can get good rudder effectiveness, you almost have to back downwind to get the stern ahead of the bow and make it point to the wind.

In my boat, being that wind blows the bow off more than the rest of the boat, I've found the best thing to do when backing into a slip with a crosswind is to either over or under rotate as needed, leaving the bow slightly up-wind. Then as you back in, the wind will help rotate the bow into place. That trick should work in the Bayliner as well.

With high winds, it also matters a lot what's around you. More empty space to work gives a lot more options. The tighter the fairway and slip, in my mind, the lower the max wind limits get.

 

[mvweebles]

I'm hoping that the 4788 will be as good, but most likely better than my 400 Mainship in "getting out in the wind"..... My biggest issue is just getting off my dock, turning the boat around without hitting my neighbors boat. If the cross wind exceeds 20 knots, I won't do it in the single engine Mainship, perhaps the 4788 with twins (and a thruster) would do better, we'll see.

You'll do fine and will likely find the 4788 easier to handle that your Mainship (another fine boat). For living aboard it can't be beat, and I do like the low profile of the Bayliner motoryachts. When single handing, going from the flybridge of your MS vs the PH of the Bayliner will not be that much different, perhaps easier.

I see you're on the east coast where backing-in to slips is common. What are your thoughts on a steering station on the aft deck? What has your experience been with your Mainship?

Peter

 

[smitty477]

Possible this is advertised incorrectly, but a quick google of Bluewater 52 turns-up this boat which, to my defense, I noted had less hull in the water when I referenced it. The one I spent a day on giving lessons was in Alameda CA (San Francisco Bay). I don't know - I don't track the models within brand line-ups very closely and in the end, it doesn't really matter. In a crosswind at slow speed, the Bluewater may be a bit more skittish than the Bayliner but they're in the same zip-code. I'm sure the Carver aficionados could go chapter/verse on difference to a Silverton despite their overt similarities. Sort of a Ford vs Chevy thing I suppose.

All I can tell you is I've driven and docked a lot of boats. In addition to deliveries, I used to arrange boats for the boat shows at Jack London Square in Oakland which means some pretty impossible shoe-horn fits that I never really got good at. And I used to drive an 82-foot/75 passenger dinner cruise boat in SF Bay with about a half dozen drop-off/pick-ups a day. After a while you get a pretty good feel for what to expect before you turn the key. In the big scheme of different boats, I doubt there's a discernible difference between docking a Bayliner 45 vs a 47 compared to the differences between a Bayliner 47 vs a Nordhavn 47. The OP asked about single-handing/docking so I offered an opinion. Take it for what it's worth. If he'd asked about a displacement boat, my guidance would have been different.

Clearly I waded into a sensitive subject. I have no knowledge that there's anything wrong with a Bayliner 45/47 or any other Bayliner. All I can speak to with knowledge and experience is that a boat of that design is skittish in a cross wind. I use a Dixie Cup on water metaphor. I think most understand the hyperbole, but apparently not owners of Bayliner 45/47s. Apologies.

Peter

"I doubt there's a discernible difference between docking a Bayliner 45 vs a 47"
I owned both and I thought there were a lot of differences as well as differences from the single engine trawlers we owned.
- One has prop tunnels the other does not
- One has larger diameter props
- One has lower shaft angles
- One has larger rudders
I thought the manueverability between the two was rather different and a whole lot different than the Bluewater that I have also docked

 

[BandB]

All the talk of adding a steering station, the simplest approach may be Yacht Controller. Their products have an excellent history and track record and I can comfortably recommend them. Added advantage is portability of wireless.

 

[Beaverlake]

We back in to our slip. It faces E-W and the predominate winds are N-S. It’s a “double wide” 36 footer with two boats per opening so you tie up on one side only; there are no center pilings or finger piers.

I have a Raymarine camera pointed down at the swim step so I get some visual feedback from the stern and I can easily take a couple side steps to glance down the starboard side (a removable seat is to port In the pilothouse but taking out the cushion is a hassle). We have a substantial dock wheel on the dock plus 4 x 18 inch round fenders mounted on the dock and 6 fenders mounted on the port side Of the boat to protect our neighbor should the wind really take control. I’m about 65%/25%/10% docking first pass/second pass/more depending on wind and current but I’m not shy about driving off and resetting. I’ve only had one instance where a strong last minute gust blew Knot Home off the dock and into the neighboring boat. That’s why the generous fender supply.

I’ve spoken to a couple owners who have cockpit helm stations, thought they would use them, but don’t. Frankly I was surprised. With two of us and Eartech radios backing/docking just hasn’t been a problem. Single handed can be a challenge but that’s true of any boat. Practice, practice, practice.

I’m in the process of experimenting with a Reolink Argus2 camera for additional visual feedback. They only cost about $60 on Amazon, don’t need an Internet connection, and at least thru testing at home seem like they will provide a significant benefit at low cost and minimal hassle. I will likely add a pair, one for each side, and then raise the Raymarine so it’s looking more astern than down at the swim step.

Overall I wish I had one or two thrusters, but close quarters handling hasn’t been a significant issue and For anyone it can definitely be improved thru captain practice and experience and subsequent familiarity with the nuances of each boat you can’t get from a short time at the helm or even a week long charter.

 

[Caphenning]

Question for you 4788 operators.....


How hard is single handling the boat?


Suspect on could operate from the pilot house and when close enough, throw a center line over a piling, and adjust on the center cleat to secure the boat and then motor forward to lock the boat against a dock, then tie up.


How about a similar situation backing in?


Now, I patronize a dock that is shorter than the boat and really shallow water close to the sea wall with rocks down there. Have about 30 feet of usable dock. What would you do with this boat to dock single handed?


And, anyone have cockpit controls?

My first private yacht captain gig was on a 1923 92’ Geary for the first billionaire I ever met, and he had taken Westward around the world. We were talking one day and he told me he was going to sell Westward and downsize. "I love you guys dearly, but I really want a boat just me and the missus can take by ourselves and something that fits up the ICW.”

He ended up buying a 4788 and was already in his 80s at that time, and they did just fine with it for several more years. So I’d say it lends itself to ease of use.

All boats are easy to handle, just get some training. It always amazes me the amount of people who don’t get basic boat handling training.

 

[wkearney99]

I also purchased a gl-iNet “Creta” travel router to create the LAN.

I went with one of their AR-750s Slate units. The in-built WiFi is pretty weak. The signal drops off quite precipitously. I have some Micro-Air thermostats and even ones just 8' away weren't seeing decent signal strength. I've since switched to using a Ubiquiti Nano access point and have much better on-boat WiFi coverage. I'm still using the AR750S for USB cell uplink, but it's sometimes unwilling to get a decent connection. But for the price it's been an OK stop-gap until I figure out something more robust.

 

[dhays]

All the talk of adding a steering station, the simplest approach may be Yacht Controller. Their products have an excellent history and track record and I can comfortably recommend them. Added advantage is portability of wireless.

Yeah, I'd love one. I singlehand a fair amount and there are times when it would make things easier. The $$$ always deters me.

 

[Seevee]

You'll do fine and will likely find the 4788 easier to handle that your Mainship (another fine boat). For living aboard it can't be beat, and I do like the low profile of the Bayliner motoryachts. When single handing, going from the flybridge of your MS vs the PH of the Bayliner will not be that much different, perhaps easier.

I see you're on the east coast where backing-in to slips is common. What are your thoughts on a steering station on the aft deck? What has your experience been with your Mainship?

Peter

MV,



I'd love a cockpit steering station, and already have the cables for that. However, just never needed it. Always had another option. Either no wind, helper or something else. However, would make things MUCH easier. I've backed in many time solo and it's always a challenge unless the wind and tide are calm.


Just like to be able to see what I'm going to hit before I hit it....

 

[Beaverlake]

MV,



I'd love a cockpit steering station, and already have the cables for that. However, just never needed it. Always had another option. Either no wind, helper or something else. However, would make things MUCH easier. I've backed in many time solo and it's always a challenge unless the wind and tide are calm.


Just like to be able to see what I'm going to hit before I hit it....

That visual thing - that’s why I’m adding some Reolink cameras for rear view duty Easier to hit what I’m aiming at . . .

 

[cosmo]

My first private yacht captain gig was on a 1923 92’ Geary for the first billionaire I ever met, and he had taken Westward around the world. We were talking one day and he told me he was going to sell Westward and downsize. "I love you guys dearly, but I really want a boat just me and the missus can take by ourselves and something that fits up the ICW.”

He ended up buying a 4788 and was already in his 80s at that time, and they did just fine with it for several more years. So I’d say it lends itself to ease of use.

All boats are easy to handle, just get some training. It always amazes me the amount of people who don’t get basic boat handling training.

I imagine the stories/information were incredibly interesting to listen to, not to mention the yacht’s lineage...

 

[Caphenning]

I imagine the stories/information were incredibly interesting to listen to, not to mention the yacht’s lineage...

Don was an incredible guy and could read Morse faster than I imagined humanly possibly.

 

[Seevee]

That visual thing - that’s why I’m adding some Reolink cameras for rear view duty Easier to hit what I’m aiming at . . .

Patti & Gordon,


Keep us posted on the camera you end up with. Would be nice to have one that could serve for docking at short range, and a rear view camera to see whose gonna run over us.

 

[ScottC]

Keep us posted on the camera you end up with. Would be nice to have one that could serve for docking at short range, and a rear view camera to see whose gonna run over us.

I have a wired RayMarine CAM220 Eyeball IP Camera connected to my RayMarine e127 MFD. The camera is mounted aft, for backing up and I like it a lot.

 

[Tom-Smith]

SeeVee,

I have been considering selling my boat due to health issues. Not sure she appeals to you but would be happy discuss it with you. She is one beautiful boat.
Drafts only three foot and is a perfect boat for the type of waters your talking about.

 

[asvan1w]

You don’t mention the geographical area that might be of interest. Went thru the same process as you with same priorities. Was disappointed at the time with what was available. Thankfully was steered to a McKinna Pilothouse. Mine just went up for sale

Go to Yachtworld or any of the internet’s t boat for sale sites and search for McKinna 48’ .Pilothouse. Boat is currently in JAX

 

[Bryant]

Bayliner

All,


Getting the itch for a bigger boat..... and thinking of the Bayliner 4788 for the following reasons:


Has shallow draft, which I need with my current dock.


Has a lot of room and creature comforts.
Can be single handed with helm doors and both sides of the pilot house and reasonable access to lines.


Has a quality Cummins engine which I like.


Has a reasonable purchase price, being a production boat. And has good bones, and simple mods that can make it better. Want to keep the budget in the $200K range, more or less.



Has stairs to the flybridge.


Has a crane and easy to store a dinghy.


The negatives are minor (for me). Worst is access to the engines, which folks have modified with new hatches in the salon. Doesn't have the fit and finish of the Nordhvan or Fleming, but doesn't have the price either.



Looks nice.


Are there other boats that have these features worth considering? Thoughts?


Uses will be intercoastal cruising, great loop again. Not into passagemaking.

Certainly a boat to consider.
Also, you might consider a Grand Banks 42. You can get one for considerably less than 200k and it has all the features you are talking about. It's obviously smaller than the Bayliner but they are very well layed out and "feel" bigger than they are.

 

[Comodave]

The deal killer for me with a GB is the furniture. I will not own a boat with built in furniture.

 

[Caphenning]

Patti & Gordon,


Keep us posted on the camera you end up with. Would be nice to have one that could serve for docking at short range, and a rear view camera to see whose gonna run over us.

Get a low light IR unit that has the IR fill light to prevent bad shadows. It’s like anything else electronic these days, everyone uses the same factory to produce their stuff. You can shop for “Marine Grade”, or you can look for “Explosion Proof” industrial/mining standard, and you get the same level of environment proofing; although if it is MSA Explosion Proof from an industrial supplier, it has an extra assurance that the expected standard has been met.

 

[Bryant]

Trawler

The deal killer for me with a GB is the furniture. I will not own a boat with built in furniture.

That’s an issue and a valid point. Every boat is a compromise. I’ve just chosen to deal with that for the upsides of my particular trawler. But I hear what you are saying.

 

[Comodave]

We both have bad backs and cannot physically sit on the builtin seating for more than a few minutes at a time. Not what we want/need in a boat. Can’t read a book or watch a movie. Not that GBs are not a great boat, they just have bad seating for our needs. And many people don’t realize this issue until they already own the boat because who sits for 2 hours in a boat when they are shopping? Then it is too late when they discover the seating is uncomfortable.

 

[DrissZougari]

7 years ago when I was in market for a different boat between 40-45ft. I have looked at two 4588s where I loved the layout and the look of the boat however, both boats had a lot of soft spots in the bridge aft and forward around the anchor area.