Boater’s evolution

[Hippocampus]

PS you got,it backwards. The Defenders are air. The lifeproofs are foam. LP uses a special closed,cell high density polyethylene foam. Strong, good memory so returns to original shape after compression or denting. FP also uses 5086 H116 which seems to be the current best alloy in salt. But adds cost.
Safe has great boats but the company doesn’t has as much interest in working in recreational boaters. Lifeproof has a more major presence in both markets.
Have seen a lot of boats in commercial, law enforcement service with air. But it’s not uncommon to need replacement or significant repair. Only real benefit to air over foam I can think of is you can deflate the tubes. Makes for less beam when trailering or storing. Still my preference is foam. And I prefer polyethylene.
The LPs I’m looking at all have an opening (a true companionway) at the front of the house. In the sizes I’m looking at you can easily access the midship cleats with sufficient room to throw a line around a dockside cleat. So no need to use the narrow side walkways except for unusual needs. Handrails are there and enough room for your feet when needed.
Still the tried and true traditional Northcoast boats definitely would work. There’s a reason that kind of design has been around for so long.

 

[klee wyck]

It was a serious question. I didn’t realize it was that common not to have railings etc. in that size. I was comparing it to a helmsman 38 which has side doors and railings. I know I rely ton those in my boat as it moves around. Is this not a legitimate concern? Even removing objects that get fouled on my anchor or attaching a snubber seems harder and I’d be lying on my belly up there afraid to go overboard if hit by a wave or wake?

Or walking back from the bow when locking?

Otherwise it’s quite interesting as it seems with its beam it would fit in a slip. And I’m curious to learn more about the hybrid system and its true range. I’d love to hear more of your thoughts as you seems very well informed and experienced here.

I had no intention of being flippant and apologize for appearing as such. It is my impression that as size of boat goes down, number of compromises go up. That is what I was trying to say. I have since gone and looked at other mono hull brands like Ranger Tugs which are quite popular and they too, in this size range, have no real side decks and no railings until you get forward. In the case of the Herley 3400 it seems clear that the priority was cockpit and interior volume. In a boat that is this shallow draft, that volume needs to be above deck. No room for side decks if that is the priority. Seems rational to me though I too, prefer side decks and bulwarks all around. The Rangers and other small monohulls may have helm doors?
My brother has a C-Dory Tomcat which is around 28 feet and again, no side decks. In terms of bulwarks forward of the house, I would be quite surprised if they were not an option. I agree that if physical strength and agility are waning then they become a necessity rather than an option.
The Herley 3400 is a very small boat. Not a big open water cruising boat in my view. In protected waters I am not sure I would add the bulwarks forward.
On my big cat, few or no compromises need to be made on deck. This is a big open water boat. In those conditions and for long range cruising, side decks and bulwarks are mandatory for me.
If I were looking for a small boat to buzz around in with room for two couples on overnights, I think this Herley 34 is quite interesting. For most of the Salish Sea and Inside passage and with this kind of speed available, I think it would do the trick and solve some of the issues that come with a giant boat where you don't make compromises like no side decks. The railings forward are just a matter of cosmetic choice I would think and expect they are on the option list. Maybe I will find out later this year.
I will try to add two pictures to give this perspective. One is my very big catamaran, DOMINO. The other is this Herley 3400. First is 65x24 and second is 33x15. These two boats live in significantly different worlds.

 

[Hippocampus]

For small cats take a look at hyfoil.
Marketed in hybrid with 465nm range. But strictly a day bat and not really fishable.

 

[psneeld]

Hippo.... not sure what you are looking at.... look at this page about "Fast Collars" off the LifeProof website.. I did misread and the max air in a Fast Collar if on a LifeProof boat seems to be 20%.

FAST Collars — LIFE PROOF BOATS

www.lifeproofboats.com

PVC HYBRID COLLAR WITH 80% FOAM & 20% AIR

URETHANE HYBRID COLLAR WITH 80% FOAM & 20% AIR

100% FOAM COLLAR WITH URETHANE OR PVC MATERIAL

And got this off the Safe Boats website....

Collar System

• Patented 100% foam SAFE XDR-1 Extreme Duty Reinforced collar system with black rubstrake
• Available collar colors include: black, blue, gray, orange, green, red

Is there a "Defender" Boat Company? I couldn't find one but the USCG and many other organizations use Safe Boats.

 

[klee wyck]

For small cats take a look at hyfoil.
Marketed in hybrid with 465nm range. But strictly a day bat and not really fishable.

The range of the Herley is reported at 2500 miles at 8 knots in hybrid. The thing is fairly impressive, and I would not expect less from its designer. Darkside's AHI is from the same drafting table and equally or more impressive.

 

[Hippocampus]

We maybe splitting hairs. Yes there’s a small air bladder inside the D shaped foam with the FAST system. It doesn’t have any of the disadvantages of a hypalon air filled tube but does allow the forming of the D shape collar which is the structure. The FAST system is from the parent company IMS. Please look at the cross section. No bladder there.

I apologize for misleading you. I didn’t say defender class using shorthand. Safe makes/made defenders. Then Metal Shark.They had closed cell foam. Currently they’ve been replaced with a foam collared boat called a respnseboat small from Metal Shark. Brief summary in link

Defender-class boat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[psneeld]

The cross section in the attachment above looks like 2 of the 3 collars I saw on the LifeProof website.

It DOES have an air bladder, but you can get it without or not care as it doesn't seem vulnerable.

Maybe I was splitting hairs..... but I didn't "get it backwards".

 

[Hippocampus]

Ok I was “backwards”. mea culpa.

Feel better

 

[psneeld]

No, it's about accuracy, not "feeling good".

Just keeping the readers on track.

 

[Hippocampus]

I tentatively spec’d 100% foam as I’m starting with a 29’ hull in the gsa line so comes that way to my understandings.so it DOESNT come with air. Do wonder about this and would like to talk with someone more knowledgeable. Know with air ribs I’ve had I’ve had to be careful about pressure. If I left with a RIB in New England then went to eastern Caribbean I could really stress it if I left with full tubes. So we routinely deflated the RIB and reinflated upon arrival. Now full time in New England may have 50 degree nights and 80 degree days. Wonder what this does to closed cell foam or hybrid.
Thinking of going with grey. Believe black gets hotter so more stress on seams. Think white gets dirty and it shows more. Think colors fade more obviously .Think grey although not flashy is the least trouble in the long run. So disagree with the wizard of Bristol for once when he said white or the wrong color.
Think I’m pretty accurate in my thinking. Doubt this crowd gets mislead much. Do think there’s always more to learn. Like to stay focused on that.
Thanks for your interest

 

[Hippocampus]

FYI from metal shark to see current evolution of defender class

US COAST GUARD RBS-II CONFIGURATION​

In addition to its prominent role among state and local law enforcement agencies, fire departments and foreign militaries, the 29 Defiant is the platform for the US Coast Guard’s Response Boat – Small (RBS-II).
In the interest of improving safety and versatility for its next-generation response boat, the Coast Guard presented Industry with a challenging set of criteria. In addition to typical requirements such as speed, range, capacity, sea state operation, etc., the Coast Guard placed heavy emphasis on the following:

• Weight Savings: The vessel was required to weigh less than 10,000 lbs., on a trailer, full of fuel, in order to stay within the legal towing capacity of the (now-retired) government-issue 2500 Suburban tow vehicles.
• Visibility Requirements: Visibility was of paramount concern to the USCG. Accordingly, pilothouse visibility requirements included less than 10 degrees of total obstruction and 2 degrees in any direction.
• Large, Opening Windows: The vessel was required to offer a configurable cabin for a crew of five enabling all-weather operation in the frigid environments of the north as well as the hot southern summers, all without the use of an HVAC system.
• Maintenance Accessibility: Unlike the previous-generation RBS and other USCG platforms, it was mandated that entire inside of the RBS-II, hull and cabin was required to be quickly accessible for maintenance with only basic hand tools.

The defiants are pretty amazing boats as were the defenders.

 

[Snapdragon III]

I have been aboard many Lifeproof boats over the years at the Seattle boat show, and talked to the guys there. I think they are super well made products and of the highest quality. That being said, I don't think the collared design is very practical for most recreational use cases. It is perfect for law enforcement or pilot boat that have to pull up next to other boats or ships in open water and need massive fendering to avoid destroying both boats. For recreational use cases it has almost no use. Every life proof boat I have ever seen sitting at a dock has normal fenders put out over the tubes as they don't want to grind up the expensive tubes on the dock. You literally never use the tubes for what they are intended for. On the downside, they add weight, expense, don't last forever, add considerably to the width of the boat which is especially bad if you are trying to keep it within trailerable widths. You often end up with very narrow cabins, V berths, and deck areas due to the tubes. The tube also makes the gunnel super thick, so if you want to fish you are fighting a small deck on the back, with a super thick, often too low, gunnel that make access to the water/fish difficult. My other complaint is the cabins that they put on these boats. Once again, they are built in the tradition of law enforcement boats, which look cool, but are not practical for recreational use. They have extra windows in the roof and brow which are great if you need visibility as you approach a huge ship, but for recreational use just add a great spot for leaks to develop, and add a ton of solar heat gain. For a recreational boat I think a much more practical design is a slightly crowned roof with forward raked windows, small overhangs with an edge that keeps rain water from running off the roof and over the windows. This keeps the windows much drier, cleaner, cooler. It also is a huge relatively flat spot to store an inflatable dingy or kayaks, paddle boards, or solar panels. The forward raked windows and slight overhang help a ton with solar heat gain, and keeping the windows drier helps a ton with condensation in colder weather.

In my opinion the only really good recreational use case for Lifeproof boats is rich guys that have a fancy cabin in the islands and want a super cool commuter boat to bomb up there in.

I am all for your idea of getting an unpainted aluminum boat. I think they are amazing, I would just look at ones that were designed with more of a fishing/recreation focus. I recently visited the Silver Streak factory and was impressed by the quality, and value.

Attached below is a picture of my old boat. I have had a couple of bouts of 15'itis since then. I miss that boat and wish I still had it.

 

[Snapdragon III]

I also have a suggestion for a feature that I have never seen, but always wished I had on my aluminum boat. These boats are too small for good heads. They are too small to use comfortably, block too much visibility, and smell too much in use. If I ever built new again in this size, I would have a Composting toilet built into a box on the back deck, against the back bulkhead of the cabin. I would figure out a hospital style curtain that would strap down against the back bulkhead when not in use, but could easily be pulled around the head for privacy while using it. It would just be seating in the back cockpit while not in use, it wouldn't smell, when you were out on the water by yourself you would have a million dollar view while dropping a load. It would be amazing!

If I was in the market for this type of boat, and I was feeling flush financially, Cold Water boats, and Brix marine would both be high on my list to check out.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks for your comments Snap. Much to think about. I’m still on the fence and still actively considering non tubed commercial grade aluminum.
The counter arguments are the tubes take flotation out of the usable interior. But as said above they do add beam whereas inflatable tubes can be deflated. Owners I’ve spoken to seem convinced they improve ride and comfort. Both at plane on sharp turns but also at slow speeds in chop. I’m going on demo rides hopefully this week and will see. I can see they would make for a dryer boat and the strakes off the hull would make for better turning behavior. They do add safety as flotation is redundant-hull, internal foam and external foam. Hulls are self bailing but so are other designs. From what I can gather to date foamed tubes last longer than air filled as they aren’t pressurized but still need more information about actual service life.
I very rarely raft but even with fenders to my chagrin have touched the rub rail in the past docking. Sh-t happens. Have yet to need gelcoat repair nor rub rail work. Slow is pro.
I do like the low freeboard for fishing small game and the reserve bouyancy.
Looking at the specs of non tubed Al aimed at the recreational market what brands would you consider Snap? See some Silver streaks around here but little else that’s heavily built. Still like the LFs over the silverstreaks for build. What was the brand in your picture? What brands would you suggest beyond Brix and cold water? Thanks

 

[Nick14]

Looking at the specs of non tubed Al aimed at the recreational market what brands would you consider Snap? See some Silver streaks around here but little else that’s heavily built. Still like the LFs over the silverstreaks for build. What was the brand in your picture? What brands would you suggest beyond Brix and cold water? Thanks

I've never owned an aluminum boat, but FWIW I've heard many good comments about North River -

HOME

www.northriverboats.com

I've seen a number of local harbor patrols and fire boats use North River.

Kingfisher seems to be one of the more ubiquitous ones in the PNW -

KingFisher Boats - Welded adventure boats for Lake, River and Ocean

KingFisher is the fastest growing brand of welded heavy-gauge boats in North America. Experience the KingFisher difference, visit an authorized dealer today.

kingfisherboats.com

 

[Hippocampus]

Kingfisher seems to be Canadian. How much of a hassle is importation?
One of the issues I face is there’s a paucity of builders on the east coast. Plenty for small open freshwater boats and a few for big boats but nearly nothing in between.
One of Lifeproof things I like is there’s a dealer right in my home town. And I’ve known him for many years.

 

[ScottC]

Targas, mentioned earlier in this thread, are incredibly rugged and worth a look, in my opinion - if they are available in the US. They are made in western Finland. I've been on a few at boat shows and there are some in my marina. From the outside, they appear as if they have little living space at all, but once you get inside, your mind will be changed. It's astounding how they've managed to provide interior accommodation while simultaneously providing significant open and useful deck area.

Look at this Targa 35, for example. From the outside, would you believe it has two heads and an "aft" cabin?!

35

Sturdy, safe and fast - the Targa 35 will not let you down, nomatter what the conditions are. It looks professional and hasthe attitude and performance to back it - ready to put yourseamanship to the test in complete comfort and safety.

www.targa.fi

 

[guy with a boat]

I have been aboard many Lifeproof boats over the years at the Seattle boat show, and talked to the guys there. I think they are super well made products and of the highest quality. That being said, I don't think the collared design is very practical for most recreational use cases. It is perfect for law enforcement or pilot boat that have to pull up next to other boats or ships in open water and need massive fendering to avoid destroying both boats. For recreational use cases it has almost no use. Every life proof boat I have ever seen sitting at a dock has normal fenders put out over the tubes as they don't want to grind up the expensive tubes on the dock. You literally never use the tubes for what they are intended for. On the downside, they add weight, expense, don't last forever, add considerably to the width of the boat which is especially bad if you are trying to keep it within trailerable widths. You often end up with very narrow cabins, V berths, and deck areas due to the tubes. The tube also makes the gunnel super thick, so if you want to fish you are fighting a small deck on the back, with a super thick, often too low, gunnel that make access to the water/fish difficult. My other complaint is the cabins that they put on these boats. Once again, they are built in the tradition of law enforcement boats, which look cool, but are not practical for recreational use. They have extra windows in the roof and brow which are great if you need visibility as you approach a huge ship, but for recreational use just add a great spot for leaks to develop, and add a ton of solar heat gain. For a recreational boat I think a much more practical design is a slightly crowned roof with forward raked windows, small overhangs with an edge that keeps rain water from running off the roof and over the windows. This keeps the windows much drier, cleaner, cooler. It also is a huge relatively flat spot to store an inflatable dingy or kayaks, paddle boards, or solar panels. The forward raked windows and slight overhang help a ton with solar heat gain, and keeping the windows drier helps a ton with condensation in colder weather.

In my opinion the only really good recreational use case for Lifeproof boats is rich guys that have a fancy cabin in the islands and want a super cool commuter boat to bomb up there in.

I am all for your idea of getting an unpainted aluminum boat. I think they are amazing, I would just look at ones that were designed with more of a fishing/recreation focus. I recently visited the Silver Streak factory and was impressed by the quality, and value.

I went through a similar process and reached the same conclusions. I love the look and the commercial/military feel, but not enough to work around all the compromises you mention. Additionally, I was a little surprised to find it is a fairly heavy boat due to the stout build. We were interested in the smallest models for a towed tender/fish boat and weight mattered. Cool boats in any case.

 

[Hippocampus]

Trying to stay with OBs and boats that are very fishable. Don’t like I/Os and don’t like Volvo.

 

[ScottC]

Trying to stay with OBs and boats that are very fishable. Don’t like I/Os and don’t like Volvo.

Curious. What is it that puts you off about I/O's?

 

[Hippocampus]

I went through a similar process and reached the same conclusions. I love the look and the commercial/military feel, but not enough to work around all the compromises you mention. Additionally, I was a little surprised to find it is a fairly heavy boat due to the stout build. We were interested in the smallest models for a towed tender/fish boat and weight mattered. Cool boats in any case.

In Friday’s conversations they seem to be open to taking the hull/house they are using for fire boats and convert it to fish offshore and use as a 2-3d overnighter. Still awaiting a test ride and paper and pencil discussions if that boat can be modified to my expected use pattern. Suspect their interest is because I’m not alone in wanting that kind of boat.
There’s really great new directions small boats are going in. But unfortunately either aimed at go fast dayboats or SD all arounders or testosterone driven center consoles. The Al cats hold interest as even a small one can fish offshore, are remarkably efficient and have a soft ride. But have yet to see one that even has the most rudimentary creature comforts.

 

[Nick14]

Kingfisher seems to be Canadian. How much of a hassle is importation?
One of the issues I face is there’s a paucity of builders on the east coast. Plenty for small open freshwater boats and a few for big boats but nearly nothing in between.
One of Lifeproof things I like is there’s a dealer right in my home town. And I’ve known him for many years.

There are several U.S. dealers for Kingfisher boats, in Washington, Oregon, and the Midwest. None that I could find on the East coast, but all the Kingfisher models are of a size that can be easily trailered.

 

[Hippocampus]

Same reasons I don’t like saildrives. Multiple dissimilar metals sitting in salt all the time, a big gasket to worry about, another level of complexity. I probably have an unjustified bias as my exposure has been listening to friends complain about them. If I’m using diesel would prefer inboards. If petrol outboards.
Seems the market has responded. Very few new I/Os. In the size I’m looking at OBs predominant.

 

[darkside]

To avoid I/Os in the length of boat being discussed a V drive is a good option. V drive also presents the front end of for easier maintenance. With inboard the engine will be well forward into the accommodation for an acceptable shaft angle.

 

[Nick14]

Same reasons I don’t like saildrives. Multiple dissimilar metals sitting in salt all the time, a big gasket to worry about, another level of complexity. I probably have an unjustified bias as my exposure has been listening to friends complain about them. If I’m using diesel would prefer inboards. If petrol outboards.
Seems the market has responded. Very few new I/Os. In the size I’m looking at OBs predominant.

How about a diesel outboard?

OXE Marine - Engineering the Future

Engineering the future of marine propulsion.

www.oxemarine.com

I’ve looked at some V-drive boats in the past. While engine access can be OK, having the stuffing box underneath the engine makes accessing it nearly impossible.

 

[psneeld]

Nowadays, if you have money, it's hard to argue outboards for up to 30-35 foot boats...especially if the boat is on a trailer.

Taking it to a shop is a snap, and for me...if it was going to take long to fix, would just buy one as a spare and keep the newly repaired one in storage till needed.

 

[Snapdragon III]

If you are into the collared commercial look, I think this one looks like a huge bargain. I have no idea how hard it would be to transport it to where you live from England, but it's small enough that I bet it wouldn't be too bad. If you could find the right team, I bet you could rebuild the cabin on this one to make it better for pleasure boating, and get everything else in good repair and still be about 1/4-1/3 of the cost of building it new. I think the Yanmar, with the ultrajet is a cool power combination. I recently met a guy that had a similar sized boat that he had custom made about 20 years ago that had a Cummins and Hamilton jet. He loved it, it got surprisingly good economy, and it had been trouble free for 20 years.

Finished in 2022 with 70 hrs on the engine.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2011-custom-coded-patrol-survey-boat-9381182/

 

[Snapdragon III]

These are all very expensive options, but a few more companies to check out are.
-Moose Boats
-Eagle Craft
-Costal Craft
-ACI boats.
-Coldwater boats
-Brix marine

On the slightly more affordable, but still crazy expensive side.
-Weldcraft/duckworth
-Northriver
-Hewes craft
-Stabicraft
-Silver streak

 

[guy with a boat]

Nowadays, if you have money, it's hard to argue outboards for up to 30-35 foot boats...especially if the boat is on a trailer.

Taking it to a shop is a snap, and for me...if it was going to take long to fix, would just buy one as a spare and keep the newly repaired one in storage till needed.

That spare outboard could cost you $40K. Convenient but pretty expensive.

 

[Snapdragon III]

This is probably more boat than you are looking for, size and maintenance wise, but it is aluminum and very cool!

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2006-alumarine-argonautic-40-offshore-pilot-9109373/