Bow Damage during delivery

[MichaelD]

Makes you wonder if youre out there and you know you are the stand on vessel if you should just stay on course and let it ride. Im not advocating for accidents because at that point we are putting lives at danger but,,,,

Eli

Uh, nope. The prime directive is to take whatever action is required to avoid collision even if that means violating other parts of the COLREGS. Not sure how the insurance company would deal with that, but....

 

[psneeld]

https://blog.marinerslearningsystem.com/insuring-yourself

from the above.....

"While working as a Licensed Captain on a vessel owned by a corporation, you will be covered by the company’s liability insurance policy. However, if you provide training on a client’s boat or choose to work as a self-employed delivery captain this will not be true. In this case the owner of the vessel must have their policy amended to provide the necessary insurance required to cover you.

This insurance “Rider” provides the policyholder extra protection beyond the provisions contained in their standard insurance agreement. Current law prevents you from being able to buy insurance to cover another person’s boat. This means that you cannot insure a customer’s boat under a policy which you have purchased."

 

[psneeld]

Uh, nope. The prime directive is to take whatever action is required to avoid collision even if that means violating other parts of the COLREGS. Not sure how the insurance company would deal with that, but....

This is a repost of #145

Rule 17 though is what tells you what to do....

RULE 17
Action by Stand-on Vessel
(a)
(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall
keep her course and speed.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her
maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel
required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in
compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and
speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of
the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to
avoid collision.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in
accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with
another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit,
not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep
out of the way.

 

[Hippocampus]

Every time I’ve had anyone that’s anyone pro captain or not they need to be vetted and accepted by my insurance carrier. If they are not and the boat is in motion ( even going from slip to haul out) I’m NOT covered. I’ve know this because I needed to have the boat hauled. I was in the states. Boat was in IGY Rodney Bay. Move was less than 100 yards. Insurance said yacht management guy (fortunately a licensed captain but foreign license) had to be vetted before move. I’m on the hook for the move. The haul was covered by by the yards insurance while in the slings and both them and me while on the hard. I had a owner/operator policy. I currently have the same type.
As regards the hired captain I think he is covered by the owners insurance even if it’s a owner/operator policy and has been vetted and accepted by the insurance vendor. Of course many larger yachts are covered by non owner/operator policies. Then from what I understand all relevant crew is subject to review and acceptance/rejection by the insurance vendor.
I’ve routinely notified my vendor of all crew for passage for review and acceptance even though they are unpaid by Jones act criteria. Given horror stories I’ve been told use a crew waiver as well. Would think most people would realize blue water sailing carries some risk. If you voluntarily get on the boat you have understood that and accepted the risk. In our litigious world apparently that’s not the case. Ridiculous.

 

[Art]

If we extrapolate... Interesting article regarding this thread:

At Sandia Labs, a vision for navigating when GPS goes dark
High-tech sensors could guide vehicles without satellites, if they can handle the ride.

 

[The Dread Pirate Robert]

Call Dave at Pitmans in Tarpon Springs on the Anclote river. They have on site fiberglass and paint people. Gantry to lift boat out of the water and move it in the yard. I use them for all bottom paints and various repairs.

 

[catalinajack]

And I'm suspicious as heck about the claimed circumstances.

Peter

We still don't know exactly which marker buoy was hit, open water or entrance channel. There are several buoys in the open waters in the 80 miles north of Anclote Key. Striking a buoy in open water is inexcusable under any circumstances during good visibilty. A boat in those waters should be well off from the buoy to allow for emergency turns. If it happened in the entrance channel, I have to wonder why this captain had the boat so close to the left side of the channel such that a turn to port had the boat into the buoy with no opportunity to recover. Remember, the damage was to the port quarter. The captain should have been centered in the channel or to the right side. Then there is the fact that a 55,000# DeFever does not make turns quickly and has a top speed of about 7.5 knots. A center console cutting across the bow would have had to have been VERY close aboard to be a danger. So, here comes a boat about to crash, a turn is made and, boom, collision with a buoy. No way that happens unless that captain had the boat dangerously close to the buoy. Or? I share Peter's skepticism.

 

[Grahambda]

Call Dave at Pitmans in Tarpon Springs on the Anclote river. They have on site fiberglass and paint people. Gantry to lift boat out of the water and move it in the yard. I use them for all bottom paints and various repairs.

Hi Robert, yes been in touch with Dave, he is only taking jobs in his yard, issue is mine is hauled a mile away at Mar Marina pre paid for 3 months on the hard , so unless I put her back in he can’t help. If no luck come January that may be the only option, move to Dave’s yard.

 

[Grahambda]

We still don't know exactly which marker buoy was hit, open water or entrance channel. There are several buoys in the open waters in the 80 miles north of Anclote Key. Striking a buoy in open water is inexcusable under any circumstances during good visibilty. A boat in those waters should be well off from the buoy to allow for emergency turns. If it happened in the entrance channel, I have to wonder why this captain had the boat so close to the left side of the channel such that a turn to port had the boat into the buoy with no opportunity to recover. Remember, the damage was to the port quarter. The captain should have been centered in the channel or to the right side. Then there is the fact that a 55,000# DeFever does not make turns quickly and has a top speed of about 7.5 knots. A center console cutting across the bow would have had to have been VERY close aboard to be a danger. So, here comes a boat about to crash, a turn is made and, boom, collision with a buoy. No way that happens unless that captain had the boat dangerously close to the buoy. Or? I share Peter's skepticism.

Well all I can do is take the delivery Captains explanation, all very frustrating, and expensive!

 

[mvweebles]

Grahambda (OP) - question of hiring a delivery skipper comes up fairly often on TF. Any lessons' learned you would like to share? I'm not asking specifically about your skipper, but about the process you used, the questions you asked, etc.

I noted your other post seeking mobile fiberglass repair. Best success in getting back to using your boat as you had dreamed.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Your major decision is whether to make a claim. If much above deductible may be worth doing it. The insurance company would probably investigate the occurrence further and require sworn report from captain. They might even try to find observers or even the CC. They have resources and methods beyond yours in all likelihood and would be motivated to assign liability to others they don’t cover.
Agree with Peter. You spoke to the captain. His statements may or may not be reliable. Insurance company lawyers and/or investigators would likely have a better ability to get to the truth. They do it for a living.

 

[mvweebles]

Your major decision is whether to make a claim. If much above deductible may be worth doing it. The insurance company would probably investigate the occurrence further and require sworn report from captain. They might even try to find observers or even the CC. They have resources and methods beyond yours in all likelihood and would be motivated to assign liability to others they don’t cover.
Agree with Peter. You spoke to the captain. His statements may or may not be reliable. Insurance company lawyers and/or investigators would likely have a better ability to get to the truth. They do it for a living.

I believe the OP mentiond $30k in damage. Guessing 2% deductible on $200K-$300k boat, so somewhere around $5K deductible (only a guess - would be interested what people have for deductibles on the East Coast). OP further stated he loses his 20% discount for being claim-free.

I have had exactly one insurance claim in my boating life. Coincidentally, involved a delivery skipper long before I had experience. My then-girlfriend and I moved to San Francisco from Atlanta and decided to live on a boat. We bought a Uniflite 42 in Newport Beach and hired an instructor out of the sailing club her dad belonged to in Oxnard. Nice guy but while he was a great sailor, knew nothing about semi-offshore conditions such as commonly found north of Pt Conception (near Santa Barbara). He came aboard and we took off. Dinghy was mounted on the bow and when we started hitting some heavy headseas, it shifted aftward and put the 40hp outboard through the center windshield. Also the anchor platform on the bow had been hinged by the prior owner, probably to reduce overall length and fit in pricey Newport Beach slip. That broke and the anchor started swinging free and beating the hell out of the bow. It was a really sucky night. With exception of some interior water damage due to blown-out windshield, everything was repaired under insurance. No questions asked. That was over 30-years ago.

But here are my lessons learned. Lesson #1 - make sure everything lashed down tight. Then lash it again. And do it again once it gets cold because things shift. Even in hindsight, I blame the skipper for not checking this which brings me to Lesson #2 - there are a LOT of different experiences that contribute to a USCG license. Yea, I know - many people fudge their time, but even if they don't, just having days-at-sea is no guarantee the person is competent. When I took the cram-for-exam module to sit for my 100T license, about half my classmates were deck-apes on some sort of spud-barge. That is all well and good but has ZERO applicability to delivering a yacht up/down the Pacific Coast (mostly up). The Oxnard skipper I hired way back when I was a naive pup falls into this category.

I am proud to say that was my one and only insurance claim. I came close a couple times when delivering, but in the end, a couple really minor items where the biggest damage was ego and sphincter related.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Or the east coast or for passage. I’ve taken static from some here for posting the same thing. My heart felt distrust of the lower tonnage US licenses and my greater trust of the Yachmaster credential. That at least includes a practicum.
When picking a captain experience doing the same or very similar trip is relevant. Days at sea isn’t. Same for crew.

For passage we’d deflate the dinghy and turn it upside down. Lashed securely with one line and then again with a second line. At part of our daily deck examination for chafe would check those lashings.
Engine stored in a locker or rail mounting. If rail mounted covered with plastic with drainage.
Anchor taken off and put in chain locker. Windlass and hole to anchor locker covered and sealed to be watertight from green water. Occasionally would leave anchor on but then securely lashed. Again with two separate lines.

 

[psneeld]

A US lower level captains license is like a college diploma.... most business owners who hire college graduates look at experience over a laundry list of qualifications and give the new hire a couple of weeks to prove their "talent" or lack of.

Same with many small business owners in the marine business, they hire captains mostly on resume' experience and call the previous employer versus just looking at what education/schooling/certificate/license one holds. They also look for other personal traits over just boathandling and other minor skills

Like all graduates in any line of work...there are good ones and bad ones. The biggest challenge for outsiders looking to hire someone in this case a captain, is figuring out how much effort to put into vetting people and trusting recommendations.

 

[Hippocampus]

Excellent post P. Like Peter have learned to trust but verify.

 

[Always Late]

Pitman boat yard in Tarpon Springs has worked on mine. Fine job. No complaints.

But wait, you are diverging from the divergence!

 

[ronobrien]

Makes you wonder if youre out there and you know you are the stand on vessel if you should just stay on course and let it ride. Im not advocating for accidents because at that point we are putting lives at danger but,,,,

Also what comes to mind,,,, AIS. Is there a way to enforce all boaters get AIS? Put a program in place (in the AIS program) to be able to record10min before and 10 min after a possible collision.

With a system like that in place, douchbags who shouldnt be on the water and dont stop after causing an accident will be found and brought to justice.

I know some will say we just want to be left alone on the water. We dont want anyone outside our close group of family and friends to know where we are. "Big brother is always watching".

Yeah i get it. But up here with the people that i know who say that and go out for a few day/weeks always make sure they have there cell phones with them. Yes, they always know where you are unless you shut EVERYTHING off!

just my expensive .02

Eli

A Captains responsibility is the safety of the souls on board. You need to stand on for clarity, hoping the other guy knows what he is doing, but the ultimate responsibility is to avoid collision by any means available. If you stood on and collided when there was an avoidance option the USCG would be having a conversation regarding the Captain's MMC.

 

[OldDan1943]

RADAR and VHF were supposed to eliminate collision ..... That worked for awhile, then DCS and AIS..... WE, yes WE might be relying too much on electronics and reducing the old fashion way of following the Rules and looking out the windows.

 

[Art]

RADAR and VHF were supposed to eliminate collision ..... That worked for awhile, then DCS and AIS..... WE, yes WE might be relying too much on electronics and reducing the old fashion way of following the Rules and looking out the windows.

For many boaters... especially newbies... wha-da-ya mean "MIGHT"!!??

Us oldies are happy as H with: Compass, plotted paper chart, knowing a boat's speed at certain rpm, a wrist watch, radio to hear storm reports, tide book and a woman at our side! Gota admit... I do appreciate GPS for SOG...

 

[ronobrien]

For many boaters... especially newbies... wha-da-ya mean "MIGHT"!!??

Us oldies are happy as H with: Compass, plotted paper chart, knowing a boat's speed at certain rpm, a wrist watch, radio to hear storm reports, tide book and a woman at our side! Gota admit... I do appreciate GPS for SOG...

I help guys move their boats up and down the US east coast. The owner/captain dictates our SOP. These are guys I have sailed with for over 30 years. With modern Navionics we often have multiple nav sources as everyone has Navionics on their phone. We no longer keep a paper course as backup. I often wonder what would happen if we somehow lost all systems. We wouldn't have a last known location and how well would we remember paper navigation? Maintaining a paper chart with a fix every 1/2 hour is good back up and good practice.

 

[Hippocampus]

Art the problem is most boaters don’t have those skills. End of discussion on that point.
Have a friend who has made untold millions as a engineer designing driving aids (cruise control, automatic braking, lane shift) and now automatous vehicles. He told me from the start the driver for his industry has been the auto insurance business. Not car manufacturers nor government. The vast majority of claims are due to driver error. Not mechanical failures nor ice, snow, rain nor fog. Driver error.
I strongly believe it’s the same on the water. I’ve (knock on wood) never had a claim. That includes back to the directional radio finder era. I no longer depend upon dead reckoning to cross oceans. At this point I do moonshots and lower limb or the moon for kicks and giggles. The world moves on. As piloting has become easier and basic navigation skills are no longer necessary to learn for operating a boat to believe for one second the great unwashed or the 1%er credit card captain will learn those skills is frankly ridiculous. Is ain’t going to happen. I’ve yelled at jerks “follow colregs “. They have NO idea what I’m talking about.
After so many near misses I’m behind having AIS wired into the ignition circuit. Much like a car for repetitive DUI alcohol addicts. Believe much of the comments in this thread is angels on the point of a pin. Accept most of the boating public in vessels large and small have no knowledge of colregs nor proper seamanship. Forgive them for they know not what they do. Protect them from themselves in a way that does not limit your freedom. You can do this with technology rather than licensing all boaters under 20 meters. Money talks BS walks. If hit and run or near hit and run causing damages and proper assignment of liability was in place and known to all operators collisions would decrease. Agree AIS should not be applied to all moving violations such as no wake zones or exclusion zones and such. Although it would make my life better think that’s too intrusive but think it would prevent many “accidents “ before they happen and encourage colregs to be followed.

 

[OldDan1943]

SOG can be approx by measuring distance mid chart with dividers, moving the dividers to the area in question plus start and stop time..... walk them fwd for as long as long as you wish.....

 

[Hippocampus]

Dan would suggest SOG is not a very helpful metric by itself. The metric VMG is usually what your needing. We tend to forget that now we instantaneously know position. A few examples
You’re doing a race to Bermuda. You’re dealing with the gulf stream and its breakouts, curls, varying current depending upon how deeply you’re in the stream. You know you’re set but often not by how much. Without outside aids giving you instantaneous position it’s very difficult to get a SOG and even harder a velocity made good. Your DR is repetitively corrected once a day after you’ve collected shots of at least three different celestial targets ideally. Then you can generate an estimate of SOG and VMG.
You’re following a river, in a canal between two large bodies of water or you’re in the AICW. Current varying widely depending upon which side of the bend of curves you’re on and the depth of the water and protrusions into the stream of water. Without outside aids (in this case gps is best) it’s very hard to get VMG.
I have no interest in going back to the time when only latitude was reliably available. Or even later when I could get something close to longitude with a good mechanical timepiece set to Greenwich time. Rather push a button.

 

[Larry M]

AIS is great out on open water but on a busy weekend in South Florida it’s almost useless. In March while heading south.

 

[guy with a boat]

With modern Navionics we often have multiple nav sources as everyone has Navionics on their phone. We no longer keep a paper course as backup. I often wonder what would happen if we somehow lost all systems. We wouldn't have a last known location and how well would we remember paper navigation? Maintaining a paper chart with a fix every 1/2 hour is good back up and good practice.

If you are concerned about losing track of your location with a systems failure, set your phones to record a track or just drop a crumb trail. As long as everyone doesn’t drop their phones overboard at the same moment that your boat electronics quit, you will be fine. What happens if your carefully marked paper chart blows out the window and you don’t have electronics? Now you really have a problem.
Only us old grumpy guys even have these conversations.

 

[OldDan1943]

Dan would suggest SOG is not a very helpful metric by itself. er, in a canal between two large bodies of water or you’re in the AICW.


Must be a different Dan. I was discussing one 'method' for determing SOG

 

[Art]

Art the problem is most boaters don’t have those skills. End of discussion on that point.

Hipp - That is so!

A lucky item of age, and, having decades boating experience: Being able to navigate without all the satellite connected and electronic powered gizmos operating. Actually gives you time to view the surroundings by eye. A novel experience in modern times!

Day dream when star wars begin [IMO... inevitably] and the satellites are ruined. People will not understand what ta do!!

 

[psneeld]

Doesn't really matter much...old methods, new methods.....

Bad decisions by the skipper inevitably result in bad events..... even with AIS hooked to the ignition as even that safeguard won't prevent everything bad that can happen on a voyage.

 

[guy with a boat]

Hippo, the difference between VMG and SOG may have been relevant in your sailing days, but SOG works fine now that you have a boat that you can point in the direction you actually want to travel. A basic understanding of charting and navigation is important, but the next time I use celestial navigation will be the first and I don’t think I’m underprepared for travel by boat.

The problem that you address with your earlier post about new boaters not knowing what they don’t know is a tough one. A requirement for even the most basic boating course before operating a boat is a good start and is implemented in some states. Our local harbor is full of rental boats, kayaks and SUPs on a warm weekend. They used to make me crazy when they would cut across our bow when we were tracking down the middle of the harbor, and they would miscalculate so badly that we had to go to neutral or reverse to avoid them.

The mental calculations are different on the water since the relative sizes and speeds are different than what we are used to on land. Even well-meaning people make mistakes when operating a boat early on. I’ve learned to accept that it will happen and try to be prepared to avoid problems. It keeps my stress level down and avoids conflict. I’m not sure yelling at them to follow the col-regs would be particularly helpful. I liken it to being near a student driver on the road; give them extra space and be patient. Not everyone on the road or the water will have your skill level.

By the way, I see skills and lack of skills pretty even distributed within the great unwashed, the 1%er credit card captains, and the retired MDs. Not sure a persons place in society or economics determines their boating knowledge.

 

[Hippocampus]

Don’t let the excellent get in the way of the good.


Would hope most folks here have several navigation systems running. Typically we have the MFDs, at least one phone and always one iPad. Run navionics or aqua on something other the MFDs and C-MAP on the MFDs (with a different chip as well ready to go). Think many boaters are only running one system. Often just on a phone or tablet without radar nor real-time AIS.