Broker experiences?

[salishpaddler]

You proved my point. The boat you're referring to was an overpriced cream puff.

The average of 6 figures is $500,000. Let's do some math. Don't know the broker's commission out there. Lets assume 8% on a $150K boat. Depending on the deal between your broker and the seller's broker that's $6K each before any expenses and a further split between the listing broker and the company he works for. Very quickly it becomes not much of a payday....and you want him to spend a lot of time on you. Version 2 has you flying down, him handling both sides, expenses stay the same, and commission doubles. Double the price of the boat with a buyer's broker and the listing broker still makes money and can invest more time.

Can't speak for the West coast and specifically the PNW, but much of the East coast is a seller's market now.

Ted

10% commission in the PNW. Listing broker has an exclusive listing and is the brokerage owner and wasn't particularly keen to split his commission. I pointed out seller's market in PNW because your comment stated buyer's market. Sorry, I was unaware six figures implied $500,000. No, I'm not in the market for a $500K boat. $200K is my max, so I guess I'll just have to get used to being ignored by quality boat brokers. Oh well. But wait. My broker also owns his own brokerage and is amazingly generous with his time and advice, so maybe there's still hope for this cash-strapped buyer. Time will tell.

 

[smitty477]

Very confusing - are all of these posts of yours referring to the same person - your buyer broker?


Post #52
“ I'm confident my current broker, Alan Powell of Capital City Yacht Sales, is going to steer me in the right direction, temper my expectations and help me find the boat that's right for me.”

Post #55
“As for the other buyer broker, I'm referring him to the NW Yacht Brokers Association Ethics Committee for unprofessional conduct and fraudulent misreprentation of the boat.”

Post #61
“my broker in this transaction is a retired US Navy officer, an engineer with a degree in warship marine mechanical systems. He's a rated 100T skipper. He's eminently qualified to ascertain the quality of a boat. He buys and sells boats in his own right. He's not one who suffers buyer brokers who are demonstrably uncooperative.”

 

[salishpaddler]

Very confusing - are all of these posts of yours referring to the same person - your buyer broker?


Post #52
“ I'm confident my current broker, Alan Powell of Capital City Yacht Sales, is going to steer me in the right direction, temper my expectations and help me find the boat that's right for me.”

Post #55
“As for the other buyer broker, I'm referring him to the NW Yacht Brokers Association Ethics Committee for unprofessional conduct and fraudulent misreprentation of the boat.”

Post #61
“my broker in this transaction is a retired US Navy officer, an engineer with a degree in warship marine mechanical systems. He's a rated 100T skipper. He's eminently qualified to ascertain the quality of a boat. He buys and sells boats in his own right. He's not one who suffers buyer brokers who are demonstrably uncooperative.”

#52, Alan Powell, is my current buyer broker. After I decided to recommence my search for a boat, I retained him on recommendation from a good friend for whom he brokered a complex transaction. I'm very pleased with him.

#55 is the seller's broker who rejected my contingencies. If I stated buyer, that was a typo. Thanks for pointing that out.

#61 was my buyer's broker in the failed transaction. He's an honorable person whom I had hired to conduct the sea trial on the Tolly Sundeck and who provided my instructions in seamanship and close quarter boat handling, who as my representative didn't deserve the scorn heaped on him by #55. I misstated when I said he doesn't suffer buyer brokers . . . That should have read, "He's not one who suffers seller's brokers who are demonstrably uncooperative.”


Hope that makes matters clear.

 

[salishpaddler]

Post #55:

As for the other buyer broker, I'm referring him to the NW Yacht Brokers Association Ethics Committee for unprofessional conduct and fraudulent misrepresentation of the boat.

That should read seller's broker, not buyer broker. Sorry about that.

 

[sunchaser]

Contrary to some above statements, for quality in demand vessels the PNW is a seller's market. The economy is strong, play money is available and serious lookers are many. As Ted says, well cared for, properly equipped, competitive priced and good vessels are sought after.

A strong seller's market however, does not mean all vessels are in demand. A rising tide does not lift all ships when it comes to the marketplace.

 

[smitty477]

#52, Alan Powell, is my current buyer broker. After I decided to recommence my search for a boat, I retained him on recommendation from a good friend for whom he brokered a complex transaction. I'm very pleased with him.

#55 is the seller's broker who rejected my contingencies. If I stated buyer, that was a typo. Thanks for pointing that out.

#61 was my buyer's broker in the failed transaction. He's an honorable person whom I had hired to conduct the sea trial on the Tolly Sundeck and who provided my instructions in seamanship and close quarter boat handling, who as my representative didn't deserve the scorn heaped on him by #55. I misstated when I said he doesn't suffer buyer brokers . . . That should have read, "He's not one who suffers seller's brokers who are demonstrably uncooperative.”


Hope that makes matters clear.

We only know what we read- those changes make a difference.
Those are direct cut and pastes .

I get it then , your current buyer broker is not this guy ….
"my broker in this transaction is a retired US Navy officer, an engineer with a degree in warship marine mechanical systems. He's a rated 100T skipper."

 

[salishpaddler]

We only know what we read- those changes make a difference.
Those are direct cut and pastes .

I get it then , your current buyer broker is not this guy ….
"my broker in this transaction is a retired US Navy officer, an engineer with a degree in warship marine mechanical systems. He's a rated 100T skipper."

You are correct. For my current search, I decided to engage a full time broker, but I also felt responsible for putting him in a difficult position and was hesitant about seeking his service when I decided to begin my search anew. As fellow military retirees, we are on good terms and my current broker thinks highly of him.

 

[smitty477]

Contrary to some above statements, for quality in demand vessels the PNW is a seller's market. The economy is strong, play money is available and serious lookers are many. As Ted says, well cared for, properly equipped, competitive priced and good vessels are sought after.

A strong seller's market however, does not mean all vessels are in demand. A rising tide does not lift all ships when it comes to the marketplace.

It appears to be similar to here in the Northeast when it comes to 'older' and larger boat like these. Good examples are a sellers market and real junk (I mean real trashed boats) are becoming more common. when looking at prices of exact same boats the range of price is larger and the 'trashed' boats tend to make folks think that the 'average' price for a 'decent' boat should be lower.

 

[salishpaddler]

The price for a quality used boat in the PNW, especially a 44'+ Tollycraft or a post-blister Uniflite, both locally built, will generally be up to 20% higher for a similar vessel elsewhere. Many Tollys with gas Crusader OEM engines have been retrofitted with diesels.

 

[SoWhat]

Getting back to engine starting...

I would not start negotiations on a new car until I have started the engine, AND gone out for a test drive. Typically the sales person will be sitting next to me. When ABS systems first came out I decided to test them to make sure they worked as advertised. I told the salesman to hang on and jammed the brake pedal to the floor. They worked as advertised. I also firewalled the gas pedal to check acceleration. It was peppy. I bought the car.

Don't see much difference in a boat. I'm going to start the engines and put the transmissions in gear before I start formal negotiations. They are major systems and I'm not going to waste my time if they don't work (unless I'm looking for a shop project)

I have made too many trips to discover dead batteries, air leaks in fuel system, bilge full of oil, etc. I have no interest in typical yachtbroker ad that has 20 pictures of salon and 1 picture of engine room. Even less interest in owner/broker hovering over me to make sure I don't touch anything.

If an owner doesn't want anyone to drop the transmission into gear at 1000rpm or leave fingerprints on the chrome then he should make it clear upfront that only certain types of buyers are allowed onboard. It would save everyone a lot of time

 

[boatpoker]

I had two surveys cancelled this year when they could not start the boat to get it to the travel lift.
Think I could bill the owners for my lost time ?

 

[sunchaser]

Getting back to engine starting...

I would not start negotiations on a new car until I have started the engine, AND gone out for a test drive. Typically the sales person will be sitting next to me. When ABS systems first came out I decided to test them to make sure they worked as advertised. I told the salesman to hang on and jammed the brake pedal to the floor. They worked as advertised. I also firewalled the gas pedal to check acceleration. It was peppy. I bought the car.

Don't see much difference in a boat. I'm going to start the engines and put the transmissions in gear before I start formal negotiations. They are major systems and I'm not going to waste my time if they don't work (unless I'm looking for a shop project)

I have made too many trips to discover dead batteries, air leaks in fuel system, bilge full of oil, etc. I have no interest in typical yachtbroker ad that has 20 pictures of salon and 1 picture of engine room. Even less interest in owner/broker hovering over me to make sure I don't touch anything.

If an owner doesn't want anyone to drop the transmission into gear at 1000rpm or leave fingerprints on the chrome then he should make it clear upfront that only certain types of buyers are allowed onboard. It would save everyone a lot of time

"So what" vessel price range do you shop in?

 

[SoWhat]

"So what" vessel price range do you shop in?

Still looking for my nordhaven 40 for under 200K

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Getting back to engine starting...


Don't see much difference in a boat. I'm going to start the engines and put the transmissions in gear before I start formal negotiations. They are major systems and I'm not going to waste my time if they don't work (unless I'm looking for a shop project)


[/QUOTE/]


I don't know about the rest of the owners here, but if ,I'm not going to be on the boat for more then a few days the sea cocks are closed, to the mains and the genset. If it's much longer all the through hull at or near the waterline are closed, and probably the fresh water lines are emptied and the water heater drained depending on the time of year. Show me or my broker that your serious about the boat we'll demonstrate all the systems work. Same thing with electronics inrush current damages components you want to see the radar go round prove you 're serious buyer....When the damage caused by a simple mistake or oversight can be in the thousands of dollars it's ok to look but the fires don't get lit till a buyer proves they are serious.... If something is not right with the boat or you just don't like it you get your money back.

 

[Shrew]

If an owner doesn't want anyone to drop the transmission into gear at 1000rpm

Nobody, but nobody is going to allow you to rev the engine to 1,000 and then put the transmission into gear.

Whether anyone agrees with it or not, the standard practice is:

1) View
2) Offer
3) Deposit
4) Survey
5) Sea Trial
6) Purchase

More frequently than not, offer (#2)and deposit (#3) go hand in hand. I've done it both ways. I've agreed on a price, then submitted the signed P&S with a 10% deposit. I've submitted an offer with a deposit.

Buying a boat is nothing like buying a car. One would naive to assume or expect the process is the same. You can ask to start machinery, but that is really a survey. Likewise the seller can allow it or deny it.

If you insist on starting engines outside of a survey with no offer, P&S or deposit, expect to walk away from a lot of boats frustrated.

Don't the player, hate the game.

 

[BruceK]

Getting back to engine starting...

I would not start negotiations on a new car until I have started the engine, AND gone out for a test drive. Typically the sales person will be sitting next to me. When ABS systems first came out I decided to test them to make sure they worked as advertised. I told the salesman to hang on and jammed the brake pedal to the floor. They worked as advertised. I also firewalled the gas pedal to check acceleration. It was peppy. I bought the car.
Don't see much difference in a boat. I'm going to start the engines and..

Now that makes sense, query the "test drive",which to me is more "sea trial".It`s just starting an engine, a cursory check,does it start,how does it sound,how`s the exhaust look, is there water discharging, the simplest things. It`s a motor boat, the engines really matter.
A broker should be able to kick over the engines without harming them. I`ve been on a boat where the owner was overseas, the broker said he was instructed to start engines and genset,to give them a run.

 

[dhays]

Call it unreasonable, that's fine with me, but the boat I'm interested in is going to have received attention on a regular schedule, regardless of the presence of a potential buyer. It's going to be clean and free of piles of seagull crap. It's not going have mildew and inhabited spaces suffering from musty odor mixed with diesel fumes. Failure to ensure that is indicative to me of a boat that's been neglected and lacks pride of ownership.

I wouldn't call it unreasonable. You can certainly find a boat that meets those criterion here in the PNW. Just know that a boat with no issues at all is very rare, and usually very expensive. Most folks are selling a boat for a reason. Usually those reasons preclude them spending as much time on the boat as they would like due to health, finances, or the complexities of life. Those same things make it hard to keep a boat up excellent condition.



What you need to find is an owner that has plenty of time to use and work on the boat and has devoted a lot of time, effort, and money into maintaining their pride and joy, and who decides that they want to sell the boat while still spending that same amount of time, money, and effort in maintaining it while it is on the market.

 

[dhays]

Don't see much difference in a boat. I'm going to start the engines and put the transmissions in gear before I start formal negotiations. They are major systems and I'm not going to waste my time if they don't work (unless I'm looking for a shop project)

As others have said, you can certainly make the request, but as a seller I would not have my broker start my boats engine for every person that happens to want to see it. However, I also think it is good practice for the selling broker to go over the boat thoroughly with the seller to ensure that when it comes time for a survey and sea trial, that things are working as expected.

 

[salishpaddler]

I just want to take a moment to express my thanks for all of the views freely expressed here in this thread. Although I may not always agree, I can appreciate your perspectives as buyers, sellers, owners and brokers. I'm finding this thread to be educational and I hope others feel the same. As for me, I currently have my eye on a Tolly 44 and a Uniflite 48, either of which may meet my desires, and I can certainly employ the pointers offered in this thread to make me a more knowledgable buyer. No guarantees, of course, and I'm following my broker's guidance, but I can be optimistic. Folks, I'm 70 years old. This boat will be my one and only. It's my opportunity realize a long-deferred dream of returning to the PNW short of a divorce. I give it maybe 10 years at best before this boat, whatever it may be, starts looking for another caretaker and I return to boring life on land. But I'll still have my motorcycle, so all won't necessarily be lost. And with a crane and open aft cockpit, it could be the best of both worlds until I cash it in. So yes, I'm going to be a demanding buyer within my price range.

 

[O C Diver]

Nobody, but nobody is going to allow you to rev the engine to 1,000 and then put the transmission into gear.

Whether anyone agrees with it or not, the standard practice is:

1) View
2) Offer
3) Deposit
4) Survey
5) Sea Trial
6) Purchase

More frequently than not, offer (#2)and deposit (#3) go hand in hand. I've done it both ways. I've agreed on a price, then submitted the signed P&S with a 10% deposit. I've submitted an offer with a deposit.

Buying a boat is nothing like buying a car. One would naive to assume or expect the process is the same. You can ask to start machinery, but that is really a survey. Likewise the seller can allow it or deny it.

If you insist on starting engines outside of a survey with no offer, P&S or deposit, expect to walk away from a lot of boats frustrated.

Don't the player, hate the game.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. If you feel the need to do destructive testing on my transmission, you'll need to own the boat first. I don't spend all the time I do on maintenance and careful operation to have someone try to break something.

Ted

 

[BandB]

No broker will ever be allowed to start my boat. That's not within what I see as his range of duty or permission.

If a buyer appears to be serious, then I might, at the buyer's expense (could be applied toward deposit), allow a captain employed by me to go start the engines for the buyer but that would be on an exception basis. As long as the boat is owned by me, it will only be operated with an employee or contractor of mine present. While they are rare, accidents happen. Boat starts and jumps into gear. Sea cocks are closed. Mechanic is in the middle of an oil change, has drained but not filled. Diver is under the boat. Boat hasn't been dewinterized. A/C water intake is blocked.

I jump in my car and start it without ever checking anything. I don't ever start a boat without going through a checklist.

I'd also say as a buyer or broker, you don't want to be the one to start someone's boat, as something totally unrelated to you can happen and seller try to hold you responsible.

I think everyone has the right to set the rules they're willing to play by but I think in doing so they need to be aware of industry norms and where they vary and respectful of that. You need to also decide if those rules you set are negotiable.

 

[motoryacht lover]

Getting back to engine starting...

I would not start negotiations on a new car until I have started the engine, AND gone out for a test drive. Typically the sales person will be sitting next to me. When ABS systems first came out I decided to test them to make sure they worked as advertised. I told the salesman to hang on and jammed the brake pedal to the floor. They worked as advertised. I also firewalled the gas pedal to check acceleration. It was peppy. I bought the car.

Don't see much difference in a boat. I'm going to start the engines and put the transmissions in gear before I start formal negotiations. They are major systems and I'm not going to waste my time if they don't work (unless I'm looking for a shop project)

I have made too many trips to discover dead batteries, air leaks in fuel system, bilge full of oil, etc. I have no interest in typical yachtbroker ad that has 20 pictures of salon and 1 picture of engine room. Even less interest in owner/broker hovering over me to make sure I don't touch anything.

If an owner doesn't want anyone to drop the transmission into gear at 1000rpm or leave fingerprints on the chrome then he should make it clear upfront that only certain types of buyers are allowed onboard. It would save everyone a lot of time

So what I hope I don’t come off too strong but a person with your mentality is the exact reason I don’t want someone who has no deposit in the game starting my engines and putting it in gear. You obviously don’t know big boats. Do you know how much a 3/4 line will stretch when you put an 820hp engine in gear at idle let alone 1000 rpms? Will someone like you put the boat in gear and pull the shore power cord out of the dock pedestal when you make the shore power cord a springline? Are the sea stairs out? Say they are 3’ away from a piling. Put 1 of my engines in gear and the sea stairs will hit the piling and be ripped off the boat. My boat is very well cared for and when I sell it no one (other than my broker) will be starting engines with out a deposit. A larger boat is far more complex then a car.

 

[SoWhat]

So what I hope I don’t come off too strong but a person with your mentality is the exact reason I don’t want someone who has no deposit in the game starting my engines and putting it in gear. You obviously don’t know big boats. Do you know how much a 3/4 line will stretch when you put an 820hp engine in gear at idle let alone 1000 rpms? Will someone like you put the boat in gear and pull the shore power cord out of the dock pedestal when you make the shore power cord a springline? Are the sea stairs out? Say they are 3’ away from a piling. Put 1 of my engines in gear and the sea stairs will hit the piling and be ripped off the boat. My boat is very well cared for and when I sell it no one (other than my broker) will be starting engines with out a deposit. A larger boat is far more complex then a car.

I don't have experience with "big" boats and I don't take it personally. You raise a good point. I wouldn't have any problems with that as long as the engines are started. I still fail to see the difference between starting the engines pre-deposit or post-deposit. Sooner or later, the engines are going to be started (obviously at sea trial.)

I think a distinction needs to be made between getting rid of dreamers (and there a lot of them out there) and ensuring systems safety when dealing with inexperienced buyers. The dreamers are easy to spot and and any broker worthy of the name knows how to quickly redirect them.

The inexperienced ones? Keep your fingers crossed. If they cram the transmission into reverse at 1500rpm, "Oops, sorry. I don't think this boat is the right fit for me" You, the seller, can now arrange for the tow to the repair shop.

I believe the seller's broker who refused to let the OP's broker cycle the circuit breakers is at the extreme end of obnoxious. Buyer is paying another broker to inspect the boat and seller insists on a deposit????

 

[BruceK]

Why on earth would anyone but the owner or his authorized representative be starting the engines before a sale completes, with or without deposit paid? Still the sellers boat,still the sellers call.
Between Agreement and Closing comes sea trial and survey. I drafted an amendment to a Sales Agreement, providing that the boat is at the Buyers risk during survey. Worth making sure the Surveyor(s) are actually aware of that.

 

[BobnDoc]

I find it interesting when I read some of these threads about how slanted some people become. However, boats, cars and homes and other large purchases people want to be able to tour, ask questions, evaluate, take for spin in person. The owners have other priorities such as work or don't have the space, time, or resources to sell and hire someone to help move those possessions.



Here's a good way to think about it, your looking for a new car. Maybe you have done your research maybe you haven't, maybe you know you want a truck but your not sure about the ride quality. It's been ten years since you have owned a 3/4 ton so you decide you want to go test drive a Chevy, Ford and Ram. You have done your research know the trim level, engine, gear ratio you'd like, you only want to test drive so you know you've made the right decision. So you head into the local dealer and take the drive. Maybe you have been luck and landed in a dealer that sells two or all three brands. Your drive only takes a nice little 15 minute route. But that's three drives, plus the time to pull each vehicle around. So you have taken up 1 hour of the sales persons time. You decide after the drive that you like the way the Chevy drives the most. So you make your offer, after all you know what the dealer paid, you know how much your going to pay. Your offer is accepted and you drive home in your new Chevy. Thinking you just spent $50k on your new truck this guy really made a home run and is eating well tonight with his commission check. What you didn't realize is prior to you coming in and taking time to drive in you three trucks he did that with five prior clients that chose not to buy and that took several days. Sales is a lot of work and your never guaranteed getting paid while investing in a client's goals.





We all choose to do something with our time in return expect to get paid for our time. When selling professionally it takes many many hours, sometimes more than you'd like to obtain a sale, so many buyers and questions need to be answered emails responded to, calls made before you have accomplished what a seller needs. I for one will not categorize one profession or group of people together. Good and bad in any profession.



Off my soap box now.



I know several very reliable, honest and hard working brokers I have done business with and refer people to. If you'd like I'd be happy to share those contacts with you. They are on the West Coast, one in Seattle and one in Portland.

Who do recommend in Seattle? Bob

 

[Wxx3]

So very well said.
Sone of you may know that I sold cars and trucks for 4 years.
In all my professions and jobs, i've been with organizations that will spend many millions sending various employees to seminars on improving listening skills to better serve their customers.

After selling cars, I realized all those companies were wasting time and money.

You want someone to learn to listen, put them on commission.

My base salary without commissions was $200 / mth. My rent was $1200.

You learned to listen or starved.

You want to fix the school system, put teachers on commission.
You would weed out all due ineffectual teachers in a year.
But that's another story.

 

[Baker]

My Lehmans sound sweet running,I`d be happy, even keen, to run them. Ditto genset.

Bruce, therein lies the problem...IMO. YOU would be happy to... In many(most?) cases the seller and/or any representative of the seller is not present. I do not want a buyer's broker and a buyer on my boat jacking with my **** with me being there or a representative of mine being there...simple as that. If I were there, OF COURSE I would have no problem running the engines. But I don't want anyone messing with my stuff only to go to the boat and find things wrong. If I am there or my representative is there, then there are no questions.

 

[salishpaddler]

If a yacht owner drops his seller's broker for unsatisfactory representation and then sells the yacht independently to an earlier buyer whose accepted offer had then been rejected by that broker with no counter and no recourse, can that broker legally make a claim to the sale of the yacht?

 

[BandB]

If a yacht owner drops his seller's broker for unsatisfactory representation and then sells the yacht independently to an earlier buyer whose accepted offer had then been rejected by that broker with no counter and no recourse, can that broker legally make a claim to the sale of the yacht?

Depends on the contract the buyer signed with the broker, but most of the time the contracts do specify that the broker will be due commission. Here is typical wording:

Broker is still entitled to full commission if sale is consummated after this contract is terminated but with
a prospective purchaser produced by any party while the contract was in effect.

 

[bshillam]

In most cases yes. However the rejection should have been signed by the seller or a counter considered. If the broker made that decision without consulting the seller than there maybe just cause for no commission. You may want to consult with legal. If it’s owed it’s owed and best to honor the commitment. World is too small to do otherwise.