Business is good, don't bother

[man n black]

I've been finding boat buying very much like looking at houses in resort areas.....my theory is that a large boat being a luxury item owners decide the price they want to sell for regardless of condition and if they get thier price awesome...if not they just sit on the item as its not like they have to sell financially...

Brokers for me are a different story. We traveled to look at a boat, there we some problems along the way with the broker...we met the owner a super pleasant guy and he told us we should have been treated MUCH better than the broker had treated us....This boat is still on our list but I now think there are very few legitimate buyers or sellers brokers out there and I am very wary...in fact it's sort of pushing us to commission a boat rather than buy used...

Ch

 

[sunchaser]

The Tennessee river is full of beautiful boats that are freshwater kept in covered berths. The Great Lakes just to the northwest. Coastal dwellers pay huge premiums to ship well found inland boats to the coasts.

+1 -- add in the St Louis area

 

[CPseudonym]

+1 -- add in the St Louis area

Funny you mention St Louis as we will be touring a couple boats there first week of July.

 

[CDreamer]

Here's the reality of it: Let's say the broker gets 10% of the sale price. Unless he's completely independent, he then splits that with his agency and possibly again with another broker. Ultimately the Broker just isn't real incentivized to put more time into showing this GB, dealing with a 4th survey, etc. unless all 3 deals fall through. With three potential buyers lined up he is likely going to make two people very happy (a Buyer, and the Seller). Because, as we all know, "The two happiest days in a boat owner's life are the day he buys it, and day he sells it". (NOTE: This is what is known as tongue-in-cheek boat humor....you need not assure me that your happiest days occurred while owning your boat, or how sad you were to sell...I get it. )

 

[Acheron2010]

An update.
Very interesting. I had all but given up on this Grand Banks Europa, now I don't know what to make of it. You recall my original post when "Maggie May" was for sale but the broker had three people lined up about ready to buy, so don't bother come looking.
Today, I casually look up GB Europa's, and there it is, same boat, but renamed to "Sara Liz" although they still use the original photos where you can make out Maggie May on the transom.
Bait and switch?

 

[Pack Mule]

An update.
Very interesting. I had all but given up on this Grand Banks Europa, now I don't know what to make of it. You recall my original post when "Maggie May" was for sale but the broker had three people lined up about ready to buy, so don't bother come looking.
Today, I casually look up GB Europa's, and there it is, same boat, but renamed to "Sara Liz" although they still use the original photos where you can make out Maggie May on the transom.
Bait and switch?

There is an American Tug for sale at Green Turtle Bay on Cumberland river . We docked a few boats down from it Saturday and Sunday. Green Turtle Bay Yacht Sales .

 

[smitty477]

An update.
Very interesting. I had all but given up on this Grand Banks Europa, now I don't know what to make of it. You recall my original post when "Maggie May" was for sale but the broker had three people lined up about ready to buy, so don't bother come looking.
Today, I casually look up GB Europa's, and there it is, same boat, but renamed to "Sara Liz" although they still use the original photos where you can make out Maggie May on the transom.
Bait and switch?

Well - the stern pic seems to show "Maggie - XXX" on the back.
How about sending an email asking that exact question....
I am interested in your boat that is listed as "SARA LIZ" - is this bot your listing and was it known by another name recently?
At that time you can also ask the other 10-12 questions that help clear up any foggy issues before going to much further.

 

[dhays]

Well - the stern pic seems to show "Maggie - XXX" on the back.
How about sending an email asking that exact question....
I am interested in your boat that is listed as "SARA LIZ" - is this bot your listing and was it known by another name recently?
At that time you can also ask the other 10-12 questions that help clear up any foggy issues before going to much further.

You don't even have to guess at the stern name. The listing pictures show maintenance books with the name "Maggie Lee" on the covers.

Is this the same broker that listed the boat before?

My guess would be it was a mistake on the part of the listing broker as they uploaded the listing to YW.

 

[smitty477]

You don't even have to guess at the stern name. The listing pictures show maintenance books with the name "Maggie Lee" on the covers.

Is this the same broker that listed the boat before?

My guess would be it was a mistake on the part of the listing broker as they uploaded the listing to YW.

These are some of the other questions I would ask a broker before spending too much time on a possible boat to purchase. If you have any intention of pursuing the boat through this broker best to ask him the questions now and very clearly so there will be no surprises later on with the deal.
Old post cut and paste....

I actually have an initial set of boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these have worked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures of your boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list of all items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance records and are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history of the boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-res photos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and max speeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not work on the boat?
- Where is the boat currently and in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybe is it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boat unencumbered?

 

[smitty477]

FWIW - your original link to the listing in post #1 now leads to this boat Sara Liz.
The YW listing numbers are also the same as is the broker - so what happened is really a question for the broker of record.

 

[tego]

Acheron, I have seen ALL but one of the boats you mentioned for sale on the Tennessee River. People inland use Craigslist a lot, as well as brokers. Very few people realize how many wealthy people live or play in TN, and a lot of them like their little yachts. Ben

 

[vistar]

Tego - Not necessarily wealthy

I have a 32' Nordic Tug on the TN River in Loudon and there is another 32' NT owned by a neighbor that's possibly for sale. It was on the market when I bought mine and then removed from sale as the owner decided to complete the most southern portion of the ICW after doing the Loop. Harbortowne Marine in Vonore is a good source of leads and a competent broker. Tony helped me find mine. There may be two more NTs available for sale owned by the same person in Oak Ridge. So, more than you might imagine.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr./Ms. v. Welcome aboard.

 

[vistar]

I've been lurking in the wakes

 

[Seevee]

There's good brokers, bad ones and good sellers and bad ones.

I feel the best way to buy a boat is to first KNOW WHAT YOU WANT. And contact the owner, not the broker, and you can. Some owners just want top dollar, haven't maintained their boat and don't care if it sells. To make ANY reasonable deal the owner MUST be motivated.

Once you find the right boat and a motivated seller, it's just about negotiating from there. Not hard, and there's some very nice boats out there very reasonably priced.

However, sometimes it's a bit hard to figure out exactly what you want without owner a few similar boats, talking to others, looking at their boats over the YEARS. Not something you learn in a few months.

So, there's an argument to get a starter boat with the intention of selling it and upgrading later. We all do that.

As for paperwork, you don't need an attorney, it's dirt simple... but you do have to pay attention.

 

[tego]

Vistar, Welcome to the site! Not to infer that you were a 1%r, but people don't realize how many 60-80' boats there are around here and quite a few considerably larger than that! Most are dock queens but are capable of going anywhere in the world. It astounds me when I cruise downriver and poke into the larger marinas, at the size of these toys that I never see out on the river. I'm glad I left my 44' trawler back in FL when we moved here. What I have now, I use a lot. We put 150-200 hours on her a year, cruising the river and its tributaries. Hope to see you out there. Ben

 

[Art]

I've been lurking in the wakes

Don't you mean surfing!

 

[john61ct]

200 hours a year is considered a lot?

 

[Art]

200 hours a year is considered a lot?

For the majority...

 

[FlyWright]

200 hours a year is considered a lot?

For the majority...

...and you're working or other obligations...or you have nearby anchorages. It's all about what works for you.

Besides, there's a lot more fun that occurs after engine shutdown that never shows on the hour meter.

 

[Art]

Let's depict a semblance of the average pleasure boat user

Figures used are 7 knots FD speed - faster boats, which many people have, will annually record 1/2 as much or less engine hours]:

A couple with or without family take their boat out 30 weekends per year. For fun and play, they travel 2 hrs. at 7 knots to favorite anchorage [14 nm], = 28 nm, Overall travel per weekend amounts to a total of 120 hrs. annual weekend engine use.

Same couple/family takes 2 week vacation on boat each year. Average distance traveled 250 miles each way at average speed of 7 knots = 500 miles for 71 hours engine use.

Engine use = 120 hours on weekends plus 71 hours for vacation is 191 total annual engine hours. For FD hulls.

If SD hull doing same travel dates and distances at 2x the FD speed = 96 annual hours.

If FP hull at 3x FD speed = 64 hrs.

Yup... I'd say 200 hrs. annual engine use is a good guess!

 

[BDofMSP]

Plus for us inland folk, unless you are on the Great Lakes there's just not a place where you can set the autopilot and go for hours on end. Locks or shore get in the way.

 

[john61ct]

Ah I see, my past experience is ocean racing, liveaboards and long-haul international cruising, 1500km deliveries etc

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 61. Well, 1500km=800nm @ 7knots is still only 114 hours or so. I tend to agree, 200 hrs/year is a pretty fair average for the average boater. Similarly, 12,000 miles a year used to be the average car mileage. Don't know if it still is...

 

[Ex Sailor]

I would rate boat brokerage in general, with used car sales / residential siding / paving and eves trough .... : try to locate the owner if you can and deal direct ........ fb

 

[Art]

Greetings,
Mr. 61. Well, 1500km=800nm @ 7knots is still only 114 hours or so. I tend to agree, 200 hrs/year is a pretty fair average for the average boater. Similarly, 12,000 miles a year used to be the average car mileage. Don't know if it still is...

3.5K annual miles is avg for my 50 yr old 67 Buick Wildcat!

 

[dhays]

I ran my boat about 200 hours for the first year I owned it. I typically cruise at 7 knots. Some weekends and a two week vacation. I'd say Art's numbers are pretty spot on. I will say that I'm disappointed that I didn't use the boat even more however.

 

[Seevee]

Let's depict a semblance of the average pleasure boat user

Figures used are 7 knots FD speed - faster boats, which many people have, will annually record 1/2 as much or less engine hours]:

A couple with or without family take their boat out 30 weekends per year. For fun and play, they travel 2 hrs. at 7 knots to favorite anchorage [14 nm], = 28 nm, Overall travel per weekend amounts to a total of 120 hrs. annual weekend engine use.

Same couple/family takes 2 week vacation on boat each year. Average distance traveled 250 miles each way at average speed of 7 knots = 500 miles for 71 hours engine use.

Engine use = 120 hours on weekends plus 71 hours for vacation is 191 total annual engine hours. For FD hulls.

If SD hull doing same travel dates and distances at 2x the FD speed = 96 annual hours.

If FP hull at 3x FD speed = 64 hrs.

Yup... I'd say 200 hrs. annual engine use is a good guess!

Art,

Good points, and I'd bet the average boat owner doesn't use their boat 50 hours a year, especially smaller ones that typically don't go that far, and do it quick.

I know a ton of boaters with boats in the 35 to 60 foot range in a particular marina that probably average way less than 50 hours a year each. Most are marina queens and a lot of the other go out for an afternoon cruise for a few hours a few times a month. Then there's a small percentage the just go and put on a lot of 50 to 200 mile trips, but that is not the norm.

 

[Art]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Let's depict a semblance of the average pleasure boat user

Figures used are 7 knots FD speed - faster boats, which many people have, will annually record 1/2 as much or less engine hours]:

A couple with or without family take their boat out 30 weekends per year. For fun and play, they travel 2 hrs. at 7 knots to favorite anchorage [14 nm], = 28 nm, Overall travel per weekend amounts to a total of 120 hrs. annual weekend engine use.

Same couple/family takes 2 week vacation on boat each year. Average distance traveled 250 miles each way at average speed of 7 knots = 500 miles for 71 hours engine use.

Engine use = 120 hours on weekends plus 71 hours for vacation is 191 total annual engine hours. For FD hulls.

If SD hull doing same travel dates and distances at 2x the FD speed = 96 annual hours.

If FP hull at 3x FD speed = 64 hrs.

Yup... I'd say 200 hrs. annual engine use is a good guess!

_________________________________________________________

Art,

Good points, and I'd bet the average boat owner doesn't use their boat 50 hours a year, especially smaller ones that typically don't go that far, and do it quick.

I know a ton of boaters with boats in the 35 to 60 foot range in a particular marina that probably average way less than 50 hours a year each. Most are marina queens and a lot of the other go out for an afternoon cruise for a few hours a few times a month. Then there's a small percentage the just go and put on a lot of 50 to 200 mile trips, but that is not the norm.

Seevee

You are quite correct. The analogy I used was for persons who actually use their boat quite a bit. There are tens of thousands of others who use their boats just a little or not at all. And, as you imply, there are some who use their boats a whole bunch.

Reason I "made-up" a plausible hours per year count was simply to point out that even the higher-boat-use than usual boater need not spend the costly opportunity to own diesel engines or to repower with diesel.

 

[psneeld]

Heck, many larger boat owners I know, use the big boats less and less...too much trouble to only go 10 or 12 miles, then back....

So they buy a little boat and use that to boat and the big one becomes the dockominium.