And yet I stand by that statement. It isn't an "accusation" as you characterize it, but an observation. A transaction does not take place without an agreed price by a willing seller and a willing buyer, broker or not. You leave out goal number 0 which is to make money, and predicates the others. Brokers are just people, people have varying degrees of allowing money to bend principal. Just like doctors, half of them are below average. Just like doctors, I watch them closely because their interests are not mine exactly, and their attention is split among many. I'll admit I've seen more instances of incompetence among brokers than outright dishonesty, but surely you cannot deny that both exist in your profession, and not at a marginal rate. A very few will have the occasion to find a good broker they trust, and return to them many times. For most, though, it is pot luck, you get who you get at random, and you'd better watch them. Just like real estate brokers, except without the regulation.
Buying a boat without a broker
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And yet I stand by that statement. It isn't an "accusation" as you characterize it, but an observation. A transaction does not take place without an agreed price by a willing seller and a willing buyer, broker or not. You leave out goal number 0 which is to make money, and predicates the others. Brokers are just people, people have varying degrees of allowing money to bend principal. Just like doctors, half of them are below average. Just like doctors, I watch them closely because their interests are not mine exactly, and their attention is split among many. I'll admit I've seen more instances of incompetence among brokers than outright dishonesty, but surely you cannot deny that both exist in your profession, and not at a marginal rate. A very few will have the occasion to find a good broker they trust, and return to them many times. For most, though, it is pot luck, you get who you get at random, and you'd better watch them. Just like real estate brokers, except without the regulation.
Judy at JWY
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"... A very few will have the occasion to find a good broker they trust, and return to them many times. For most, though, it is pot luck, you get who you get at random, and you'd better watch them. Just like real estate brokers, except without the regulation."
Sorry to disagree with you again. Anyone buying an expensive item relying on potluck for their salesman should stay away from casinos. Do you pick your stockbroker or accountant by potluck? There is a concept called "due diligence." Too many places to ask for recommendations for a good broker, no excuse for getting into a bad deal or not being happy with the outcome.
Sorry to disagree with you again. Anyone buying an expensive item relying on potluck for their salesman should stay away from casinos. Do you pick your stockbroker or accountant by potluck? There is a concept called "due diligence." Too many places to ask for recommendations for a good broker, no excuse for getting into a bad deal or not being happy with the outcome.
I have had the privilege of being in some boat transactions with some very good brokers - they were really fantastic.
With that said I do not get to 'pick' the broker that may be representing a boat I would like to purchase.
And some of them that I have been involved with are problematic.
mvweebles
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One clarification: in at least a couple states, yacht brokers are licensed. Florida (where Judy works) is one of them. California is another. There are also trade associations with a canon of ethics pledge and authority to boot out members who have history of unethical behavior. This carries some weight.
I do think DDW touched on an important point: unethical behavior vs incompetent behavior (including plain laziness). Yacht/boat sales may have a higher incidence of new entrants simply because a lot of people who love an activity think about making it a career. Unfortunately, simply enjoying boats is not nearly enough qualification to be successful, especially in sales. Thus a higher percentage of ignorant/incompetent brokers.
I can only speak from reading forums like this, but the vast majority of specific experiences I've read have been positive interactions. The vast majority of negative experiences I've read have been general statements, or (since covid run-up), frustrated wannabe buyers who didn't get their inquiries returned. I get frustrated too - I frequently have to reach out to Defender several times to get a quote they promise in 3-days.
An anology: sailors think all powerboaters are ignorant because they often encounter ski-boats who don't know the rules. Pretty arrogant to paint us all with same brush based on a few bone heads.
Peter.
EDIT- I see Smitt447 posted just before me. An example of a specific post where the experience was favorable.
FWIW - I have had issues with brokers in Florida even with the licensing.
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Perhaps a little clarification and comments:
On licensure: Peter is correct that the only 2 states requiring licensure are FL and CA. For the most part, that means you have an agency to check before engaging a broker. Did anyone here with a bad experience in either state file a complaint? If I'm working with a broker I don't know, I check with the state to see if there are complaints. The license means you are not a convicted felon, can pass a fingerprint test, and can afford a license. CA at least requires you to take a written test and know basis like rules of the road. But a license also means the broker of record has passed qualifications for a bond. Not that the bond is much, but $25,000 is better than nothing in the event a broker skips town with client money in escrow.
Not picking the Listing Broker: True, Smitty. But if you have a Buyer's broker, they can tell you whether or not the listing broker is reputable, knowledgable, etc. Sometimes if you know the broker is problematic, better to walk away. If you still want to support the bad brokers, then in my opinion you lose the right to complain.
Incompetence vs Dishonest. Good for you, DDW. There is a big difference but that doesn't help a lot when you're dealing with incompetence. I always recommend interviewing brokers: how many of xx (your manufacture of interest) manufacturers have you sold? How many surveys of this manufacturer have you attended? etc.
Love the jetski analogy!
On licensure: Peter is correct that the only 2 states requiring licensure are FL and CA. For the most part, that means you have an agency to check before engaging a broker. Did anyone here with a bad experience in either state file a complaint? If I'm working with a broker I don't know, I check with the state to see if there are complaints. The license means you are not a convicted felon, can pass a fingerprint test, and can afford a license. CA at least requires you to take a written test and know basis like rules of the road. But a license also means the broker of record has passed qualifications for a bond. Not that the bond is much, but $25,000 is better than nothing in the event a broker skips town with client money in escrow.
Not picking the Listing Broker: True, Smitty. But if you have a Buyer's broker, they can tell you whether or not the listing broker is reputable, knowledgable, etc. Sometimes if you know the broker is problematic, better to walk away. If you still want to support the bad brokers, then in my opinion you lose the right to complain.
Incompetence vs Dishonest. Good for you, DDW. There is a big difference but that doesn't help a lot when you're dealing with incompetence. I always recommend interviewing brokers: how many of xx (your manufacture of interest) manufacturers have you sold? How many surveys of this manufacturer have you attended? etc.
Love the jetski analogy!
"Did anyone here with a bad experience in either state file a complaint?"
Yes...
"Not picking the Listing Broker: True, Smitty. But if you have a Buyer's broker, they can tell you whether or not the listing broker is reputable"
Are you recommending a buyer's broker in order to protect yourself from poor brokers?
Would you need to secure brokers in various locations if they are far apart?
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BruceK
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The Selling Broker contracted to the Seller must represent the Sellers interests with a duty of utmost good faith. No duty to the Buyer, it`s caveat emptor for the Buyer.
The Selling Broker sharing his fee with the Buyers Broker suggests a "conjunction sale" between 2 brokers rather than 2 brokers independently representing separate interests.
Golden Rule:" Follow the Money" The "Buyers Broker" only gets paid if the sale proceeds, plenty of motivation and potential for conflict there.
Unless a Buyer happens upon "Buyers Broker" who will represent The Buyer`s interests to the exclusion of all others, and is convinced of the need for one,you are better off with a "Buyers Broker" you retain and you pay. Who gets paid for work done,whether the sale proceeds or not. And is truly independent.
The Selling Broker sharing his fee with the Buyers Broker suggests a "conjunction sale" between 2 brokers rather than 2 brokers independently representing separate interests.
Golden Rule:" Follow the Money" The "Buyers Broker" only gets paid if the sale proceeds, plenty of motivation and potential for conflict there.
Unless a Buyer happens upon "Buyers Broker" who will represent The Buyer`s interests to the exclusion of all others, and is convinced of the need for one,you are better off with a "Buyers Broker" you retain and you pay. Who gets paid for work done,whether the sale proceeds or not. And is truly independent.
The licensing requirements in California are not impressive: basically if you can fog a mirror and don't have a string of criminal convictions, you can be a broker. But that isn't much different for real estate either.
As others have said, you can pick a broker if selling, but not generally if buying. A buyer's broker won't work for nothing so if the seller's doesn't agree to split the fee (some do, some don't) then you pay an additional fee for the transaction.
One difference from real estate is that in many or most boat transactions the broker 'double ends' the deal. In real estate (at least here in Calif) this is assumed to be a conflict of interest, you sign a waiver stating you understand this, and almost always there is a reduction in fee (though generally it isn't offered unasked, it is generally granted if asked).
Incompetence is actually worse than dishonesty. Dishonesty you can deal with, it is rational and predicable. You are helpless when confronted with incompetence.
As others have said, you can pick a broker if selling, but not generally if buying. A buyer's broker won't work for nothing so if the seller's doesn't agree to split the fee (some do, some don't) then you pay an additional fee for the transaction.
One difference from real estate is that in many or most boat transactions the broker 'double ends' the deal. In real estate (at least here in Calif) this is assumed to be a conflict of interest, you sign a waiver stating you understand this, and almost always there is a reduction in fee (though generally it isn't offered unasked, it is generally granted if asked).
Incompetence is actually worse than dishonesty. Dishonesty you can deal with, it is rational and predicable. You are helpless when confronted with incompetence.
I’m sorry to hear your opinion of surveyors but not surprised. I believe if you had had a really competent surveyor I’m sure you would have a more favorable opinion of the profession. In following the posts on this forum and from general experience most buyers seem to look for a good surveyor by location primarily. They want a local surveyor and so because of this they limit themselves to local talent. Depending on your location you could get a good surveyor or not. I do understand however that local equates to less travel and less expense. But really the best surveyors get lots of frequent flyer miles and fill their passport with pages of stamps. Find a good with some research and I don’t mean SAMS or NAMS as many of the best won’t join these clubs. Pay the rate and figure it’s a small price on an investment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Regards
Rick
Over the years I've had a few surveyors that were a complete waste of money (other than the insurance company accepted their report), a couple that were passable but provided nothing not already known, and one that was pretty good. If I was looking to buy something sight unseen, flying that guy to look would be worth it. But that is a low percentage hit rate.
I fully understand. Reading between the lines I’m going to assume your a knowledgeable buyer kind of a rare bird really if you run the numbers. It’s a sad commentary on the surveying profession. Neither you or I can change the current state of affairs other than grab your machete and try to cut through the weeds
Rick
mvweebles
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I see you're in San Francisco, my home town where I worked as a delivery skipper and consulted on a lot of sea trials. It's been almost 20 years, but while some surveyors were better than others, I didn't meet any total duds. NAMS seemed a bit more rigorous than SAMS, but I could be biased since my favorite surveyor in the world was Peter Minkvitz, NAMS, and past yard manager at Svendsens. There are few things more interesting than following him around with his pith helmet. Sadly, he passed over 10 years ago.
DDW - you've been pretty hard on brokers and surveyors. But you don't list your boat or background. I fancy myself as fairly knowledgeable on boats but consider both surveyors and brokers to have expertise in certain pockets, certainly enough that I'm interested in their response to my questions. Perhaps you can provide some context to your strong opinions?
Peter
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Rick, no offense intended.
I will be a +1. Surveyors are human and you can get several to do the same boat with several results. Yes, I have had to get surveys, and they are mostly accurate, but a waste of my money as once I reach that point I already know I am buying. The survey is to satisfy insurance people who seem to know little about boats.
There has yet been a survey made that would have prevented the purchase.
Surveyors provide a service, which to some of us is a necessary waste of money.
Brokers serve a purpose as well, one is selling my old boat and the sellers broker accommodated me in the purchase. However also a waste of money if seller and buyer both know boats. But we seem to need a go between.
^^ Well said. If you know very little about boats, a survey, even an average one, will help you. The broker provides a service for the seller, and that is marketing the boat, providing an accessible and prominent dock space, and showing the boat to prospective buyers. It is highly inconvenient for most sellers to do this on their own, though a boat model in high demand does not need that to be sold.
I am involved in the marine industry in that I build and sell the premier bit of sail handling gear for square top sails which is sold all over the world. I invented this for my own boat and was convinced by sailmakers to patent and market it. I machine all the aluminum, SS, and plastic parts myself in my own CNC machine shop. I also occasionally design and machine SS and titanium fittings for racing boats.
That probably makes me an atypical boat owner. As I said above, the average surveyor knows more about boats than a casual or new boat owner, and for them a survey may fill an invaluable gap in their knowledge. But talk to boatbuilders, who's knowledge of boatbuilding is deep, and you will find their opinion of surveyor's knowledge pretty low. All things are relative, I guess. Even the best surveyor I have dealt with found nothing I had not already observed, except for one detail only observable once the boat was hauled (I was not present when hauled). Several other surveys I have had done, had to have significant corrections of fact before I would accept them.
I have been "messing about in boats" for nearly 60 years. Until 2018, always sailboats. The sailboat I currently own is a custom designed and built 45', I was deeply involved in the design and build, for example doing the initial drawings, helping to laminate the hull, and designing and machining the many custom fittings for the unique rig (also my design). It is now kept in Brickyard Cove after 10 years cruising from Toronto where it was launched. The powerboat I currently own - my first powerboat - is an American Tug 34, currently kept in Anacortes. I've done some modifications on it, primarily to fix the rather strange DC design choices, also adding fittings (such as the dingy davit) of my own design and fabrication, changing our the electric galley for a propane system, installing hydronic heating, etc. All of the maintenance on every boat I have owned was done my me.
I am involved in the marine industry in that I build and sell the premier bit of sail handling gear for square top sails which is sold all over the world. I invented this for my own boat and was convinced by sailmakers to patent and market it. I machine all the aluminum, SS, and plastic parts myself in my own CNC machine shop. I also occasionally design and machine SS and titanium fittings for racing boats.
That probably makes me an atypical boat owner. As I said above, the average surveyor knows more about boats than a casual or new boat owner, and for them a survey may fill an invaluable gap in their knowledge. But talk to boatbuilders, who's knowledge of boatbuilding is deep, and you will find their opinion of surveyor's knowledge pretty low. All things are relative, I guess. Even the best surveyor I have dealt with found nothing I had not already observed, except for one detail only observable once the boat was hauled (I was not present when hauled). Several other surveys I have had done, had to have significant corrections of fact before I would accept them.
So when I said above you’re probably the knowledgeable exception I guess I was right. Some of your points I could write a book on but today I don’t feel like pissing anybody off.
Comments that builders are some of the most knowledgeable just isn’t always so. In my decades of experience I can tell you custom builders generally have strong personal opinions on what they think is best and they build that way. Unlike a surveyor who travels from one boatyard or shop to the next looking at what works or most importantly does not stand the test of time the builder works out of his shop and often never, or rarely, sees his creation again so frequently they don’t know if there are problems. Production builders are somewhat famous for failing to rectify their problems or defects until the next model is developed. It becomes a matter of cost over quality usually. Custom builders are a pretty stubborn hard working independent lot and try hard to stay within budget but habitually stick with doing things the way they always have. Critiquing is usually personal with them though some like Bud McIntosh enjoy a good technical discussion on pros and cons. Most of the time this is fine but not always.
I have a file full of defects and construction mistakes of this type. Some are minor and irritating others burn or sink boats and worst case hurt people or like a 140’ newly built wood school training schooner that within a couple of years needed roughly 35% of her bottom planking replaced due to improper seam caulking and antifoulant prep. Just ignorance.
So I even hate to use the word ‘ exception ‘ but honestly they can evolve and bridge into model and class defects or bad press for otherwise top shelf builders who don’t always get out much. As a former yard worker and shop owner my mind set has always been that I was one of them not some aloof know it all. Almost without exception I feel comfortable both in the offices or setting in the shop with the guys having lunch or beers on Friday. Most understood what I had to do and I always never approached a problem with do it this way or else. My approach has always been there is more than one way to do a job so let’s talk it over. Some like Robt Derecktor or Frank Butler/ Catalina Yachts can’t be compromised but then if I had their intellect and reputation I probably wouldn’t either. Move on
Rick
'Not always so or course' - just like surveyors, brokers, doctors, and lawyers, half of them are below average. The two involved in my custom project were and are considered high end, I did not try to bottom fish the custom builder market. I would not hold out Frank Butler/Catalina as exemplary in the boatbuilders art however.
I don’t believe I ever said he was a good example of the “ boatbuilders art “ I pointed out he was very smart and has a heck of a reputation and could not be dealt with. A general comment not a testimonial. However just so you know I didn’t do much bottom fishing for custom builders whatever that means. My business and charges lent themselves to the best builders here and abroad and I know for a fact that most builders are stubbornly opinionated and given the nature of their business aren’t easily sold on techniques foreign to them. Again there are exceptions like Hodgdon Yachts, Rybovich, Sonny Davis, Merritt etc. or any one-off race boat builders but most of the smaller shops that cater to cruisers can’t afford to experiment too much. We might be on the same page I don’t know.
Rick
Frank is no longer with us having died almost 2 years ago. Yes, 'art' may not
be the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of Frank's many boat
designs but I did love my 1975 Catalina 30 dearly.
And she loved the sea, particularly on a broad reach.
Frank was very helpful sending much needed parts to this low-budget sailor,
too, so I may be a little biased.
Few have made as significant a contribution to our passion, at least for sailors.
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mvweebles
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A smile! My first boat was a Catalina 22 with pop top and swing keel that I dragged down to Baja. I wrote Frank Butler a couple times with questions and he always responded promptly and with good information even though the boat was almost 20 years old at the time.
While I agree that builders don't always know much about boats, Frank Butler is in a class of his own. He made boat ownership accessible to a few generations of dreamers and his boats have held up well.
Back to the topic at hand - DDW et al, I'm still going to push back on the undertone that because you have a lot of knowledge on boats, brokers and surveyors are optional (and that's a kind representation of your statements). I'll reference the old saw "a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client." Experienced brokers and surveyors being a second set of eyes. I view them as part of a team to deliver the best outcome.
One last saying, an old African saying: "if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with others."
Peter
Frank Butler was not an easy man to deal with but he sold more sailboats than any other manufacturer in this country and probably the world. Mr. Butler could build safe performing boats that offered the general coastal cruising public an affordable vessel that provided accommodations with amenities and handsome wood trim that the earlier glass boats didn’t have. Butler knew buyers were happier with interior layouts that didn’t have rough crude exposed fiberglass hull skins with tacky Formica bulkheads. That his buyers wanted a degree of comfort that didn’t feel like a family was camping out. His rigs and keel designs varied depending on speed over comfort or visa versa.
You entered his building facility and it immediately struck you that this man was a genius at work flow. No wasted steps, no hunting for parts or materials, nobody walking around or wondering what to do next. The whole building process was almost like an orchestra with Mr. Butler observing from a 360° catwalk above directing. Never saw another boatbuilding factory like it.
His boats incorporated building features that nobody else did. Catalina’s don’t suffer from wet soft Balsa cored decks since they are plywood. Heresy to many but after decades they remain. After hurricanes where many production boats with cored decks using thin solid glass margins screwed to the hull flange you soon realize once this attachment lets go so does the hull and all. Those cheapy Catalina’s with there plywood decks seemed to hold together. I’ve handled six Cat Losses ( hurricanes ) and without exception never found any of these boats that were driven ashore, excluding rocks, with separated hull to deck joints.
Mr. Butler refused to install lightning grounds or bonding no matter what the ABYC said. I never had a Catalina with lightning damage but who knows maybe he knew. On his smaller boats he would attach his lead ballast keels with poured in place J-lag bolts. Unheard of except his boats. Many more examples but you get my drift. A building genius.
You entered his building facility and it immediately struck you that this man was a genius at work flow. No wasted steps, no hunting for parts or materials, nobody walking around or wondering what to do next. The whole building process was almost like an orchestra with Mr. Butler observing from a 360° catwalk above directing. Never saw another boatbuilding factory like it.
His boats incorporated building features that nobody else did. Catalina’s don’t suffer from wet soft Balsa cored decks since they are plywood. Heresy to many but after decades they remain. After hurricanes where many production boats with cored decks using thin solid glass margins screwed to the hull flange you soon realize once this attachment lets go so does the hull and all. Those cheapy Catalina’s with there plywood decks seemed to hold together. I’ve handled six Cat Losses ( hurricanes ) and without exception never found any of these boats that were driven ashore, excluding rocks, with separated hull to deck joints.
Mr. Butler refused to install lightning grounds or bonding no matter what the ABYC said. I never had a Catalina with lightning damage but who knows maybe he knew. On his smaller boats he would attach his lead ballast keels with poured in place J-lag bolts. Unheard of except his boats. Many more examples but you get my drift. A building genius.
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"Back to the topic at hand - DDW et al, I'm still going to push back on the undertone that because you have a lot of knowledge on boats, brokers and surveyors are optional (and that's a kind representation of your statements). I'll reference the old saw "a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.""
And the core problem remains that a 'typical' boat buyer with little or no background with boats cannot tell which brokers/surveyors/mechanics are above or below average.
I will interpret your use of "typical boat buyer" to mean the average.
If so, I would contend that the "experienced" DIY boater may well be more informed than the below avg surveyor (bottom 50%).
I have used surveyor for 2 of my 3 boat purchases.
First because I knew nothing but called it short when he gave me his verbal opinion and I made an offer and saved some $ not needing a formal b surveyor report... seller accepted the .iw offer when I walked and told him to call if interested..
Second purchase was a step up but slightly older boat and wanted an expert opinion on condition.
Third boat was 4-5 yrs old, slightly over 100 hrs on engine and I spent 3 days aboard going over every system before sea trial and haul out. I was confident finding the vusible defects and felt the risk of hidden ones I missed that avsurveyor might find was an acceptable risk for me and proceeded with the sale based on negotiated reduction in $ for the defects identified.
Buyer & seller satisfied & agreed.
In that case I had a buyer broker (brother) do the negotiating and he split commission w seller broker (60% buyer 40% seller to boot) and I got a buyer broker rebate for handling inspection and sea trial, etc myself.
So bottom line, lots of ways to do a deal!
I think the buyers broker doing the initial contact & negotiations was a plus (ended up at a lower $ than I was willing to pay).
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Frank Butler was first and foremost a good businessman. He built good value priced boats - but not of the quality of high end production offshore sailboats (which cost about 2x a Catalina) or high end custom (5x). His good business sense kept him in business when most of his contemporaries such as Cal, Islander, etc. went under. That by itself is a service to customers, you can still get factory service or advice for a 40 year old boat.
The boatbuilders I have dealt with were high end sailboat builders. No idea of the flavor of the market in powerboat builders. They were not averse to adopting new techniques, and in fact on my build there were many.
I have had a survey on every boat I've bought (at least, those above 25'). You are forced to, if you want it insured. I even had the custom built sailboat surveyed prior to its first launch, again insurance required it. So it isn't as though you are likely to buy a boat without benefit of a survey. But if you are expecting the surveyor to catch every defect, or even most defects, you are assuming the surveyor is above average. 2/3 of those I have used either missed many, or called out defects that did not exist.
Now, I've seen buyers looking at boats. Often this is a walkthrough, a discussion of the color of the upholstery, and an inspection of the hanging lockers. When I look at a boat with the idea of buying it, I'm probably going to spend 5 hours going through it on initial inspection, and maybe another day before an offer will be made. If you are only going to look in the hanging lockers, then you will need to depend on the surveyor's opinion. Is that representative of typical buyers? Maybe.
Even the custom builders told me (and I observed this as mine was being built alongside others) that the normal interaction with customers was one meeting to sign the contract, another 1/2 day visit to chose fabric and colors and check progress, and then to accept delivery. These are $1-$3M boats. Some builders do not want and will not allow more access. I was there about 2 full days a week for the whole 4 year build.
The boatbuilders I have dealt with were high end sailboat builders. No idea of the flavor of the market in powerboat builders. They were not averse to adopting new techniques, and in fact on my build there were many.
I have had a survey on every boat I've bought (at least, those above 25'). You are forced to, if you want it insured. I even had the custom built sailboat surveyed prior to its first launch, again insurance required it. So it isn't as though you are likely to buy a boat without benefit of a survey. But if you are expecting the surveyor to catch every defect, or even most defects, you are assuming the surveyor is above average. 2/3 of those I have used either missed many, or called out defects that did not exist.
Now, I've seen buyers looking at boats. Often this is a walkthrough, a discussion of the color of the upholstery, and an inspection of the hanging lockers. When I look at a boat with the idea of buying it, I'm probably going to spend 5 hours going through it on initial inspection, and maybe another day before an offer will be made. If you are only going to look in the hanging lockers, then you will need to depend on the surveyor's opinion. Is that representative of typical buyers? Maybe.
Even the custom builders told me (and I observed this as mine was being built alongside others) that the normal interaction with customers was one meeting to sign the contract, another 1/2 day visit to chose fabric and colors and check progress, and then to accept delivery. These are $1-$3M boats. Some builders do not want and will not allow more access. I was there about 2 full days a week for the whole 4 year build.
Bill Wells
Veteran Member
Use a broker
I urge you to use a qualified yacht broker. the seller pays the commission so offer what you think it is worth and leave a deposit. the broker takes care of negotiating, finance, surveys, sea trial, escrow, and title typically. He/she will be licensed and bonded. Ask around your local yacht clubs to find a good broker that services the local area. About 15 years ago in San Diego a fellow was selling his trawler by owner and a couple of punks came aboard for a sea trial, overpowered him and forced him to sign over the title, then they chained him and his wife to the anchor and threw them overboard several miles offshore.
I urge you to use a qualified yacht broker. the seller pays the commission so offer what you think it is worth and leave a deposit. the broker takes care of negotiating, finance, surveys, sea trial, escrow, and title typically. He/she will be licensed and bonded. Ask around your local yacht clubs to find a good broker that services the local area. About 15 years ago in San Diego a fellow was selling his trawler by owner and a couple of punks came aboard for a sea trial, overpowered him and forced him to sign over the title, then they chained him and his wife to the anchor and threw them overboard several miles offshore.
catalinajack
Guru
Do you really think that this anecdote (the forced signing) is anywhere close to a reason to use a broker? Really?
Furthermore, just an hour ago I left a friend's boat that is being sold privately, no fuss, no muss, no commission.
The case Bill Wells mentions occurred out of Newport Beach harbor and
was the act of some psychopathic killers.
It was a thankfully rare crime that is still capable of causing chills, though.
Also, Mr. Wells, why bring up a story regarding not a buyer being
taken advantage of but the seller? The OP is clearly a buyer.
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That story has been on a few tv crime shows and still sends chills down my spine. The “buyer” first brought his wife and infant child to look at the boat and gain their trust. Then for the sea trial came with the other thugs. They did tie them to an anchor and tossed the couple overboard.
Paranoia might be a bit much but, a healthy dose of cynicism dealing with people can’t hurt.
Bill Wells
Veteran Member
Catalina Jack - go back and read the original post, the fellow is asking for advice "useful tips from experience after having bought a boat without a broker, whether or not the seller used a broker" he does not sound very knowledgeable in a boat sale transaction. Certainly, the owner being murdered over a sale is rare. On the other hand, there is plenty of room for things to go wrong if you are inexperienced. There are literally hundreds of transactions every day in CA where boats are bought and sold without a broker. If someone feels comfortable and does not mind doing all the work, I say go for it. There are good brokers and good surveyors out there and they are not hiding. There are lots of scam artists out there too looking for the unwary. Congratulations on your friend's boat selling, you don't mention how big or the value..............
Is my post totally germaine well it’s up to you. Years ago my girl and eventual wife lived about a lovely little wood sloop in a San Pedro, CA marina that was like big happy family. We BBQ ‘d and had dockside dinners almost every night. We had a couple show up one night nobody knew them as they were from San Francisco but they fitted right in. After a couple of weeks they brought steaks and tequila and got along nicely. They were seriously interested in offshore cruising sail and we’re really attracted to my friends lovely Atkin ‘ Ingrid’ ketch. A boat that was in great shape and fully equipped. They wanted to buy but the owner was hesitant. It was always for sale but his price was out of reach and he never advertised.
They showed up one day telling the owner they would meet his price. He was skeptical to say the least but they had two shopping bags full of cash. He freaked out. Asked me what I thought and I was startled to say the least. He was scared to death about seeing this much cash and didn’t know what to do. We agreed he should talk this over with a local broker and decided this was necessary to cover his butt and handle the deal. Well it worked out as the broker knew all the angles and how to protect him . Three days later this couple sailed away never to be heard from again. The broker was his only person who knew how to handle such a strange deal. Had to be drug money but it’s his his bank now. This broker was worth his fee.
Rick
They showed up one day telling the owner they would meet his price. He was skeptical to say the least but they had two shopping bags full of cash. He freaked out. Asked me what I thought and I was startled to say the least. He was scared to death about seeing this much cash and didn’t know what to do. We agreed he should talk this over with a local broker and decided this was necessary to cover his butt and handle the deal. Well it worked out as the broker knew all the angles and how to protect him . Three days later this couple sailed away never to be heard from again. The broker was his only person who knew how to handle such a strange deal. Had to be drug money but it’s his his bank now. This broker was worth his fee.
Rick
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