I'm new *to the trawler world. *I'm selling my sailboat and am looking for a good quality trawler. *Right now I'm looking at a Nova Targa 44'-1989. *Does anyone know anything about these. *I'm also looking at a CHB 45' *1984 and a Grand Banks 42' 1980 and a Canoe Cove-1987. *Any info. would be helpful as to which one to buy. *I can have budgeted around 75ks.
buying a trawler
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bobofthenorth
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The best advice I can give you is to be patient and look at lots of boats. Time is your best friend in the current economy. As the Canuck buck appreciates against the greenback your next boat will continue to get cheaper. Take your time - don't fall in love yet.
Can't speak to the other makes you've listed but unless it's in pretty rough shape a 1980 GB42 is going to run a fair amount more than 75k. Plus whatever you buy don't forget to factor in the ownership costs, which include moorage, electricity, insurance, fuel, maintenance, upgrades, and repairs. Basically everything it costs to own and operate the boat but NOT finance payments if you finance the boat. The finance payments are in addition to the ownership cost.
The very general rule of thumb for calculating the ownership cost for a used boat is ten percent of the purchase price per year for as long as you own the boat. Some years will be less, some more depending on what breaks or needs work, but over time that ten percent per year figure is pretty accurate. A lot of people overlook the cost of owning and operating the thing and have a rude surprise when the bills start coming and don't stop coming. And the older the boat, or the rougher shape it is in when you buy it, the higher that ownership cost will be.
The very general rule of thumb for calculating the ownership cost for a used boat is ten percent of the purchase price per year for as long as you own the boat. Some years will be less, some more depending on what breaks or needs work, but over time that ten percent per year figure is pretty accurate. A lot of people overlook the cost of owning and operating the thing and have a rude surprise when the bills start coming and don't stop coming. And the older the boat, or the rougher shape it is in when you buy it, the higher that ownership cost will be.
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Like Marin says....and in view of that, of the CHB & GB you've mentioned, (I know nothing about the other two), the CHB 45 1984 model might well be the better buy in view of the age and price....but as others said...look around and take your time...there will always be more to look at.
marinetrader
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I agree with Marin, at 75K, any boat you find in that size is going to be a project boat. I have seen in hundreds of times; buyers come to me wanting to buy a "2011 model boat at 1985 prices". Ain't going to happen.
timjet
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Buy the newest boat you can afford. If you do a year afterwards you'll be thankful.
Per
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you might want to check with your insurance company, some of them will not insure boats over a certain age (30 years?) or if they do, they have a ceiling which is fairly low.
other than that i dont see any good reason why not to look at the older models if they have been maintained well, boats deteriorate expeditiously unless cared for.
Another thing you might consider is how much varnished or painted wood is there on the boat, the more wood, the more time you will be spending sanding and varnishing.
Wood looks very pretty, but the work sure is a hassle.
other than that i dont see any good reason why not to look at the older models if they have been maintained well, boats deteriorate expeditiously unless cared for.
Another thing you might consider is how much varnished or painted wood is there on the boat, the more wood, the more time you will be spending sanding and varnishing.
Wood looks very pretty, but the work sure is a hassle.
timjet
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Ditto on the wood. I haven't sanded or varnished wood since I sold my sailboat. Thank God!
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*If only. It's probobly the most broken thumb on the general's hand. More like 20%.
*I agree.* I have a loan payment, so my numbers are more like 20%.* Maybe without that $6000/yr payment, I'd be at the 10% level. I'll get there before I retire.
Nomad Willy
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Timjet says "Buy the newest boat you can afford. If you do a year afterwards you'll be thankful"
Sounds like you wouldn't have money then for upgrading, repairs and maint. Almost nobody buys a boat that dosn't need post purchase investment. What your'e saying Timjet is that one should spend spend spend and then borrow all you can and spend that too. That attitude is a big problem in this country however in the jolly real estate parties of the past one could do well and even get rich borrowing every dime that's possible and get control of as much real estate as possible and then watch the value grow but them days are over and the laws of economics that didn't seem to apply do indeed apply. But I think what your'e getting at is to buy the boat before it scumbs to the age related problems like soggy bulsa cored decks or rotten plywood behind fiberglass cabins ect. With your'e philosophy one could be quite safe from evil buying a new boat and selling it at 10 yrs age. But that would cost a lot of money. Best to find an old boat like a 25 Albin that has next to no age problems and is largely played out value wise. The mechanicals can be surveyed w reasonable accuracy but the structure is somewhat of a wild card w most all boats. Fuel tanks are the exception to that. It's hard to find a really well built boat though. If I could buy a well built wood boat new I'd not hesitate but an old wood boat may or may not be a good deal. One needs to know a lot and be willing to do some extra exterior maint. What boats out there don't have the old age problems like wood reinforced FG boats w steel fuel tanks? The answer may be none. Most all Alaskans won't buy anything but aluminum now and ugly as they are they do seem to work.
Sounds like you wouldn't have money then for upgrading, repairs and maint. Almost nobody buys a boat that dosn't need post purchase investment. What your'e saying Timjet is that one should spend spend spend and then borrow all you can and spend that too. That attitude is a big problem in this country however in the jolly real estate parties of the past one could do well and even get rich borrowing every dime that's possible and get control of as much real estate as possible and then watch the value grow but them days are over and the laws of economics that didn't seem to apply do indeed apply. But I think what your'e getting at is to buy the boat before it scumbs to the age related problems like soggy bulsa cored decks or rotten plywood behind fiberglass cabins ect. With your'e philosophy one could be quite safe from evil buying a new boat and selling it at 10 yrs age. But that would cost a lot of money. Best to find an old boat like a 25 Albin that has next to no age problems and is largely played out value wise. The mechanicals can be surveyed w reasonable accuracy but the structure is somewhat of a wild card w most all boats. Fuel tanks are the exception to that. It's hard to find a really well built boat though. If I could buy a well built wood boat new I'd not hesitate but an old wood boat may or may not be a good deal. One needs to know a lot and be willing to do some extra exterior maint. What boats out there don't have the old age problems like wood reinforced FG boats w steel fuel tanks? The answer may be none. Most all Alaskans won't buy anything but aluminum now and ugly as they are they do seem to work.
Many good considerations. *I have owned sailboats and still own one so I know a little about boat maintenance. *I did spend the time to make my lastest boat into a turn key boat for the new owner. *Everythings is in top shape. * I'm looking for the same in a trawler, ie. someone who has maintained the boat. * *I think there should be good deals around in older boats. *I will not go into debt and I will not spend a fortune on something that I know will *depreciate considerably in value every year I own it. *I don't need gold plated anything, I just want something practical. *Anyone here know of the best places to look? *I plan on going to the Annapolis boat show this fall. * Possibly the Miami one too.* That being said would there be a big difference between a fresh water trawler and a salt water one, especially an older one? * I do have one in mind that has two new diesel motors. *In a trawler would that be your biggest expense?
-- Edited by edbulmer on Thursday 4th of August 2011 09:07:54 PM
-- Edited by edbulmer on Thursday 4th of August 2011 09:07:54 PM
Not in my opinion, and we own a twin.* I think insurance and moorage probably top the list of the highest regular expenses.* The boats' systems--- plumbing, electrical, electronics, galley, etc--- and the ongoing costs of maintaining, repairing, and upgrading them are not related to the number of engines in the boat.* So, too, will maintenance and repair items like decks, canvas, windows, etc.
The cost difference between one engine and two lies primarily in the fact you have to buy two of everything in terms of maintenance.* Twice the oil, two times the filters, etc.* Assuming the same boat and the same type of engine, a twin will burn more fuel than the single but not twice as much (in most cases).
Where the twin can cost a lot more is if you have to have major work done on the engine(s), transmission(s), or running gear.* Only one of all this on the single, but twice the amount of stuff on the twin.* So if you need new motor mounts, for example, as we did a number of years ago, you are paying the labor to uncouple, jack up, reconnect, and align two engines, not just one.
Fortunately this sort of thing doesn't come around very often.* But it is something to keep in mind, particularly if your budget has you looking for an older boat.
-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 4th of August 2011 11:41:08 PM
FF
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The cost difference between one engine and two lies primarily in the fact you have to buy two of everything in terms of maintenance.
When I ran a small yard , the Twins with their totally exposed drive system created far more expensive work for operators than the singles that ran aground or thru trash tides with far less damage.
The single vs twins arguments are not just about 2 oil fills.
When I ran a small yard , the Twins with their totally exposed drive system created far more expensive work for operators than the singles that ran aground or thru trash tides with far less damage.
The single vs twins arguments are not just about 2 oil fills.
healhustler
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*No, but unless you're dumb enough to hit something or run aground, it pretty*much IS about two oil fills (and filters) unless you encounter the need for new engine mounts, cutless bearings, etc.
*Marin, LOL. *You otta try our shallows here in Biscayne Bay and keys. *We kind-of laugh at Captains that never ran aground around here, cuz it means they haven't been cruising. *Last week, I was being guided by a very experienced Captain through some shallows on the bay side of the keys. *He ran aground in front of me and it was everything i could do to keep from climbing the same sand bar. *I'd have a deeper boat if I lived in the PNW, but here, everyone has humiliating stories of being aground, tide going out, and other boats taking photographs while your listing 30 degrees at slack tide.
Okay, maybe I should have phrased my comment differently. How's this--- "No, but unless one is dumb enough hit something or go boating where there isn't enough water to float a boat, it pretty much IS all about two oil changes....." etc.
Nomad Willy
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Your'e just determined to call someone dumb Marin Ha Ha. Youv'e called me dumb and I got over it and can't remember any specifics. I ran aground twice in Puget Sound. Once in Eby Slough and once in the Snohomish river. In the slough event I was scouting for the shallow spots and found the very shallow spot. It was'nt dumb. THe tide was rising. In the other event I was distracted by a friend and wasn't fully aware of how low the tide was** ...dumb. I also ran aground on the Snohomish River flats in the 70s kissing a hot date while underway in an OB boat. You can label that one any way you want. Running aground in SE Alaska usually involves rocks and sharp rocks and so far I've avoided that. But to say "boating where there is'nt enough water to float a boat" is dumb is a bit harsh and judgemental* since one can seldom see how deep the water is. And on the twin engine cost Marin you always forget that the oil, filters, belts and coolant cost about the same as the twins have engines half the size. Most TTs used the same engines for twins and singles (dumb) including GB. But wev'e been here before.
Edelweiss
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I'll bet I spend twice as much time working on the woodwork as the mechanical. I just have wood trim on the outside rails, bow, fly bridge.
Oh, on the single vrs twin engine discussion, I've had both and having the second engine to come in on, is well worth any extra expense. But it's all a matter of opinion and budget and not worth arguing about, you're not going to change anybody elses mind!! I have long since given up on that!! It's like debating politics.
*You're right about this but most of the popular production-type trawlers (GB, CHB, etc, etc, etc) with semi-planing hulls that offered the same model in either twin or single configurations simply offered one or two of the same engine, as you say.* In the old days, the GB36 could be had with one FL120 or two.* At the end of the run, in the late 90s, early 2000s, the GB36 could be had with one Cummins 210 or two.* Since it sounds like the original poster is going to be looking at this kind of production boat, my comment was based on having either one or two of the same kind of engine.* So the routine service and maintenance costs are exactly doubled.
Comparing a boat with one larger engine vs. a boat with two smaller engines, yes, the costs aren't quite doubled although I don't think things like filters, belts, impellers, etc. are going to be that much different in cost for the small engine as the larger one.
FF
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"Comparing a boat with one larger engine vs. a boat with two smaller engines, yes, the costs aren't quite doubled although I don't think things like filters, belts, impellers, etc. are going to be that much different in cost for the small engine as the larger one."
This really depends on the source if the engine.
Car , small truck or farm implement marinizations might hold 5-8 Quarts.
An industrial unit like an 8V71 will be 8 GALLONS. Should you really need t to cruise with 200- 250HP
Running the "Loop" the boasts with problems , some 3 or 4 times, seemed to be replacing props , shafts and struts that the singles were not.
This really depends on the source if the engine.
Car , small truck or farm implement marinizations might hold 5-8 Quarts.
An industrial unit like an 8V71 will be 8 GALLONS. Should you really need t to cruise with 200- 250HP
Running the "Loop" the boasts with problems , some 3 or 4 times, seemed to be replacing props , shafts and struts that the singles were not.
It's okay folks I'll* take the rap as the dumb one here because I don't know didly squat about trawlers.* Only sailboats so far.* Now here's a dumb question.* Why are they putting two motors in if one is more economical.* Is it because 2 motors are easier on each other over all or is it because if one breaks down you still have one motor.* And while under way do you usually use one motor at a time or alternate or do you always use both.* I can't wait to see the answers fly on this one he he!* Wait till you hear my next dumb* question!
Ed, That's not a dumb question. A dumb question would be to add "galley up*vs galley down with single screw or twins".
I think you will find a lot of reasons why there are twins and single screws. As you will galley up vs galley down.
I could say "being that I am a mariner, I don't need twins". But the real reason is the room that is left in the engine room. This extra room make the maintenance issues sooooo much easier.
Tomas
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Re: running a twin engine boat on a single engine
I also came from a sailboat to a trawler and had the same quesions. It was interesting the replys, asking on the West Coast of FL, many people indicated that cruisers used this tactic. Asking the same question on th East Coast and I was told by the people I asked, there is no fuel economy to be gained and it would be difficult to track and you may actually burn more fuel running single engine. I asked the same question on the Defever site and was told there is no economy by most, however one long time cruiser with a 49PH said he had been cruising single engine for 15 years and it was indead significantly more economical. I think the problem is what power setting are you running at, ie, if you a running at "hull speed", there is probably no ecoonomy, it will take X horsepower to get there, either single engine or twin engine. If you are content to cruise at a "max range" RPM and accept the slower speed, ie, sailboat speed, then it probably more economical to run single engine.
I also came from a sailboat to a trawler and had the same quesions. It was interesting the replys, asking on the West Coast of FL, many people indicated that cruisers used this tactic. Asking the same question on th East Coast and I was told by the people I asked, there is no fuel economy to be gained and it would be difficult to track and you may actually burn more fuel running single engine. I asked the same question on the Defever site and was told there is no economy by most, however one long time cruiser with a 49PH said he had been cruising single engine for 15 years and it was indead significantly more economical. I think the problem is what power setting are you running at, ie, if you a running at "hull speed", there is probably no ecoonomy, it will take X horsepower to get there, either single engine or twin engine. If you are content to cruise at a "max range" RPM and accept the slower speed, ie, sailboat speed, then it probably more economical to run single engine.
Ed:
I think the "single engine vs. twins discussion", and the "if you haven't run aground" comment pretty much depend on where you are going to do your boating.
I am retired, I boat in the PNW, and I go out in the summer for as long as I can and as far as I safely can in the time I have.* I have traveled the entire Mainland coast of B.C., I love getting into each and every lagoon possible, and I have lost an engine as much as 95 nm from the nearest mechanic, and I've lost a bit of paint off the bottom from time to time.* I love my twins.
If you intend to spend your boating vacation time within VHF hailing distance of the nearest tow, and you're going to tie up at docks as often as you toss the hook over the bow, your concerns are going to be different than mine, and may be different than they will be when you are retired.
Where and how do you boat?* Will that change in the time you own this first power boat?* The answers may help you decide on the "single vs. twins" question.* If you get into the lagoon, and I'm already there, ... you will have to leave.
OS
*
I think the "single engine vs. twins discussion", and the "if you haven't run aground" comment pretty much depend on where you are going to do your boating.
I am retired, I boat in the PNW, and I go out in the summer for as long as I can and as far as I safely can in the time I have.* I have traveled the entire Mainland coast of B.C., I love getting into each and every lagoon possible, and I have lost an engine as much as 95 nm from the nearest mechanic, and I've lost a bit of paint off the bottom from time to time.* I love my twins.
If you intend to spend your boating vacation time within VHF hailing distance of the nearest tow, and you're going to tie up at docks as often as you toss the hook over the bow, your concerns are going to be different than mine, and may be different than they will be when you are retired.
Where and how do you boat?* Will that change in the time you own this first power boat?* The answers may help you decide on the "single vs. twins" question.* If you get into the lagoon, and I'm already there, ... you will have to leave.
OS
*
Nomad Willy
Guru
Ed,
You start your engine w an electric motor and run your boat w an engine. Twin engines are better as most more expensive things*** ....that's why people pay more for them. As to running a twin on one we had quite* a discussion on that recently and it is considerably more fuel efficient to do so on most boats. Some do it for long distances w one prop removed. This was addressed on BoatDesign.net also.
Marin,
No point in starting up the "twins cost twice as much to maintain" either. Unless you start talking about boats w same total hp. But I agree** ...most trawlers on this site have twins and singles w the same engine. Lots of builders did the same dumb thing. But when you talk that way it is relevant because most boats in our circle have twins w the same engine as the singles but you need to qualify that in discussion. And I can see how you got there having to buy 7 gallons of oil for an oil change.
You start your engine w an electric motor and run your boat w an engine. Twin engines are better as most more expensive things*** ....that's why people pay more for them. As to running a twin on one we had quite* a discussion on that recently and it is considerably more fuel efficient to do so on most boats. Some do it for long distances w one prop removed. This was addressed on BoatDesign.net also.
Marin,
No point in starting up the "twins cost twice as much to maintain" either. Unless you start talking about boats w same total hp. But I agree** ...most trawlers on this site have twins and singles w the same engine. Lots of builders did the same dumb thing. But when you talk that way it is relevant because most boats in our circle have twins w the same engine as the singles but you need to qualify that in discussion. And I can see how you got there having to buy 7 gallons of oil for an oil change.
Steve
Guru
I've run aground quite a few times, always on a sand or mud bottom, and have been able to wiggle free, so far, without help.
My Monk 36 is a single, I really wouldn't want a twin engine boat but may wish I had an extra engine if this one ever conks out in a tight spot. It is just so much easier to get to both sides of the engine in a single.
Steve W.
My Monk 36 is a single, I really wouldn't want a twin engine boat but may wish I had an extra engine if this one ever conks out in a tight spot. It is just so much easier to get to both sides of the engine in a single.
Steve W.
So I'm thinking by the replies that a single is easier to work with but a double has it's advantages too. *I guess when you find the boat you want it won't matter that much whether you have a double or single engine.
Now for my next dumb question. *I plan on living on the boat or boats depending on the answers and info. I get. *Whew, here we go.
I will live 6 months in Toronto Canada and 6 months in Key West Fl. *Would it be better to have one good boat (trawler) with diesel motors and travel back and forth or would it be better (in my case) *to have two boats perhaps more inexpensive power boats with gas motors and fly back and forth?
There goes the neighbourhood he he! *Lets have it I know were going to have some fun here. *Basically what I'm saying is *I will only be doing a small amount of travelling from the dock at either location. * Perhaps in the future when I retire I will buy a boat to travel around on.*
Now for my next dumb question. *I plan on living on the boat or boats depending on the answers and info. I get. *Whew, here we go.
I will live 6 months in Toronto Canada and 6 months in Key West Fl. *Would it be better to have one good boat (trawler) with diesel motors and travel back and forth or would it be better (in my case) *to have two boats perhaps more inexpensive power boats with gas motors and fly back and forth?
There goes the neighbourhood he he! *Lets have it I know were going to have some fun here. *Basically what I'm saying is *I will only be doing a small amount of travelling from the dock at either location. * Perhaps in the future when I retire I will buy a boat to travel around on.*
