Californian 34 rudder size

[chc]

Two years ago we hit a submerged log hard enough to bend props & rudders a bit. The starboard rudder box*now leaks with some enthusiasm, particularly when being worked hard; ie running with following seas. I pulled the rudder out of the boat the other day for inspection, and repair. It is bent, & the shaft is grooved somewhat. Packing for the last few years has been Gore-tex. There is also noticeable wobble in the shaft/rudder assembly as it goes thru the collar(s) and box. Possible some out-of-shape issues there. Sorry to ramble; but my real question concerns the rudder size & shape. Would it make sense to consider changing the rudder shape to one of a squarer profile? Perhaps adding an inch or so to the trailing edge? The yard owner suggested it. Primarily for better low speed control & less work/more control*in following seas. It is an interesting thought. I'm not sure about the engineering involved as far as shaft (1") stress, etc goes, so I thought I'd see what* sort of opinion other 34 owners might have.

Thanks

 

[Capn Craig]

I really can not think of the down side to a larger rudder, at least within reason.* It may take more force to turn a larger rudder, but with hydraulic steering, I don't see that matter.* I am going down to the boat tomorrow, I take a picture of my rudder.* I would not be surprised if they are different than yours.* I have no idea if mine are OEM.* I changed rudder shapes on my old Trojan cruiser, when i refused to pay an astronominal price for an original, when i could buy something with similar blade area for half the price.* I could not tell the difference.

 

[Edelweiss]

Have you had your rudders checked to see if they can be salvaged or has that been taken care of already?*

Is the boat not responsive to helm controls, wanders without constant wheel correction or slow to respond*in one direction?* If so, with the damage to*your rudders, they may be out of alignment and*that will cause the boat to wander.***A 34, I'm*assuming you're usually slow cruising at least 8 plus knots and*normal cruise 12 - 14 knots?*

A twin engine boat and semi planing hull doesn't need a lot of rudder, usually*a relatively*small rudder blade surface is all that's necessary.* Most of your*slow speed maneuvering is done with the engines, transmissions and the rudders*operating*like*trim tabs on a plane.*

Those big flat transoms, don't like being overtaken and slapped by following seas.* The best solution is to add a little more power to maintain steerage.

 

[chc]

Pulled the port rudder today; both will be sent off to the rudder correction institute for rehab. Boat normally tracks well, except in following seas. Correction in that case is a matter of rudder/ &/or power application. Carefully done it can be exciting. Speed will go from 9 kts to 14 - 15kts in a blink. you do get busy tho'. I asked the question out of curiousity, more than concern. For a following sea situation, I try to get on the back side of a wave & ride it using power, etc. Sometimes the boat will start to slide off to one side or the other. prompt application of the rudder/power will correct that; I'm just wondering if a bit more rudder surface might make that response easier/faster. Since they are out of the boat....
Actually I suspect the mechanics involved will probably prove to be either too expensive, too ugly, or just not practical. Thanks for the input tho', I'll let you know what the shop guys have to say.

 

[Edelweiss]

I know what you mean.**When the wave overtakes you, you*lose steerage for a few seconds.**It can be quite exciting as the boat will invariably go either left or right and then you are in the trough trying to square up before the next wave rolls up under you.**

Coming down the Straits of Juan De Fuca by myself one day the*weather blew up; 30 knot winds against the tide and the four to five foot waves were coming from two directions.* Three hours of white knuckle wheel time running with the seas*just about did me in.

 

[Capn Craig]

Here is a picture of what's on my 34.* I have no idea if they are original, but based on the layers of bottom paint, they have been on a while.* They measure 14 in high x 10 in F-B (blade area).

 

[FlyWright]

Here's a shot after being pulled for bent prop. (another submerged log incident) Looks quite a bit different. Mine is a 1977 and I always assumed these were original rudders.

 

[Edelweiss]

Mine look like Flywrights and are original 1976 rudders.* Never seen rectangular rudders on a Cali before (not to say that they didn't come that way.)* Do you think they are original??

Larry B

 

[Capn Craig]

I am really curius now if others in the 1982 era are rounded or square.* I have nothing on mine to indicate they were ever changed out.** The picture I took is from a strange perspective.**It is from *the centerline looking to starboard looking at the starboard rudder.

 

[chc]

My boat is a 1984 model; rudders are rounded. My thinking was to square them up like Capt'n Craigs. Guess the next thing is to do some measuring & see what the working surface area is on both types. Mine are at the shop for rehab, but as soon as thay get back I'll get some measurements.

 

[Edelweiss]

chc wrote:
My boat is a 1984 model; rudders are rounded. My thinking was to square them up like Capt'n Craigs. Guess the next thing is to do some measuring & see what the working surface area is on both types. Mine are at the shop for rehab, but as soon as thay get back I'll get some measurements.

That's kind of what it looks like!!* Maybe a PO trimmed them down, as they don't look symetrical at all.* If so I guess the question would be why, to reduce the drag??* Reducing the*rudder surface area*certainly wouldn't make the boat handle any better at harbor speed.

*

 

[Duvie]

My 1981 34 LRC has the rounded rudders the same as the last few posts

 

[Mappy]

My 1983 has the rounded rudders. I think if you want better handling in a following sea you should increase the size of the keel.

Roger

*

 

[gezellig]

I have an 1982 and the rudders are rectangular.

 

[chc]

I'm afraid that messing with the keel size/length might involve a good bit more engineering & expense than I would be interested in at this point. Seems a bit easier to enhance the controlling tools ( rudder) to help ease the following sea issue. It is, after all, a mass of compromises known as a boat. Thanks for the thought tho'

 

[GeoCr]

Hi all, am a new member and I am working on enlarging the original rounded rudders. My research indicated that the rudders were the same no matter what the power was and were designed for maximum hull speed +/- 20 kts.
I am making a pattern for a square extension, having some casting of magnesium bronze made, and then welded on to the original rudders.
If it works as I hope, I will then do the 2 spare rudders I have the same way and perhaps make them available to other Californian owners.
My boat is a 79, hull #73, based in Ladysmith BC
Perkins 6354, natural 130 hp. Cruising at 7 kt. fuel burn of 2 gph for both and I am very happy with that especially when compared to other trawlers of similar size.
George Creek
Ladysmith BC

 

[FlyWright]

How were you able to determine your hull #?* Did the info on the Hill ID Number (HIN) provice a clue?* In another thread on this Forum, we're trying to make some sense out our hull numbers.**

*

 

[Edelweiss]

GeoCr wrote:
*Perkins 6354, natural 130 hp. Cruising at 7 kt. fuel burn of 2 gph for both and I am very happy with that especially when compared to other trawlers of similar size.
George Creek
Ladysmith BC

Hi*George.* You might also look at some of the previous posts*under the Californian topic line.* There are some pages with Californian owners manuals available and like "Pinky" Flywright says a discussion about numbering plates.

What RPM are you running 7 knots at?

Welcome aboard

Larry B

 

[GeoCr]

I am running at 1375 - 1400 rpm and getting 7 kts.

I found the original props when I got the boat were 20 X 18 and over reving.

A propellor master in Nanaimo determined I was under proped so we added 1 inch ( 20 X 19) with a cup on the trailing edge. Cut 500 rpm off the cruise speed.

Mechanics in my area differ on whether or not this is good or bad, but with the max torque of these engines at 1500 I am close to max torque and efficiency.

Have been running this way for 8 eyars without any issues, mechanics think that by loading up the engine near max torque, they warm up to a proper operating temp.

These engines are common on the Canadian prairies, used in combines, swathers, loaders and other farm machinery, take a lot of abuse and continue to be reliable.

 

[GeoCr]

My hull number is on a brass plate on the chase next to the helm.

 

[Edelweiss]

GeoCr wrote:
I am running at 1375 - 1400 rpm and getting 7 kts.

I found the original props when I got the boat were 20 X 18 and over reving.

A propellor master in Nanaimo determined I was under proped so we added 1 inch ( 20 X 19) with a cup on the trailing edge. Cut 500 rpm off the cruise speed.

Mechanics in my area differ on whether or not this is good or bad, but with the max torque of these engines at 1500 I am close to max torque and efficiency.

Have been running this way for 8 eyars without any issues, mechanics think that by loading up the engine near max torque, they warm up to a proper operating temp.

These engines are common on the Canadian prairies, used in combines, swathers, loaders and other farm machinery, take a lot of abuse and continue to be reliable.

The other boys on here with 34' Cali's can tell you better, but if I remember this discussion from an earlier thread, the props should*be 20 X 20's or 21's.* And the manual I have for the 6.354 NA's, says they should spin up to 2800 RPM at WOT.* I cruise around 2200- 2400 rpm.* My engine temp won't go above 140 F until you get above 1500 rpm.

Same here in the states, you find them in farm implements, tractors, fork lifts and generators.

The most difficult replacement part to find is the exhaust manifolds.* Not available from Perkins, of course and Barr only makes the turbo model, so hand MESA Marine your $2,000 each and smile.* It's probably a once in a lifetime purchase.

Larry B

 

[GeoCr]

I replaced my mainfolrds about 8 years ago and converted to fresh water cooled. Engine room temp spiked but I installed 2 radiator fans from a Pontiac Firefly, one in, one out using the existing vent ports. Engine room temp stays at about 10 C above ambient outside temp.

Manifolds available frojm Thompson Foundry in Surrey BC

www.thompsonfoundry.com

They are better design than the original Perkins and were ??? reasonable at $700 Cdn each.

 

[GeoCr]

I am burning 1 gallon ( Imperial) per hour per engine ( 2 total)

 

[GeoCr]

Rudder enlargements

I finally did it. I removed the standard Californian rounded rudders, had magnesium bronze additions cast and then welded to the originals.
Increased rudder size by about 40%.
If I can figure our how to post pictures, I will add them.
Initial results are remarkable to say the least. Tighter turning radius, less wander under power.
With rudders midships, the boat seems the respond much quicker and accurately when forward on one and reverse on the other.

 

[honeybadger]

My perkins 4-154 has the starboard side Manifold off of a 302 ford motor the bolt pattern was the same and it worked like a champ. Odd one of the old salts from Swansboro NC gave me the tip.

 

[honeybadger]

If it would work on a twin will it better a single ?

I finally did it. I removed the standard Californian rounded rudders, had magnesium bronze additions cast and then welded to the originals.
Increased rudder size by about 40%.
If I can figure our how to post pictures, I will add them.
Initial results are remarkable to say the least. Tighter turning radius, less wander under power.
With rudders midships, the boat seems the respond much quicker and accurately when forward on one and reverse on the other.

Ok i have a single screw trawler, I thought about adding some size to the original rudder, Would it be worth the time, It is stainless steel and i can add to the rear also to the front toward the screw ? any input anyone has would be great.

 

[BruceK]

Ok i have a single screw trawler, I thought about adding some size to the original rudder, Would it be worth the time, It is stainless steel and i can add to the rear also to the front toward the screw ? any input anyone has would be great.

Worked for us on a single engine 34ft semi displacement boat (Masters 34, designed by Clem Masters ( aka"the Master"), built in Oz, great sea boat, better than our IG36). The rudder, a shapeless flat plate, looked like a non original replacement; shipwrights advised remaking it by adding shape in wood and fibreglass to the existing plate, turning performance improved enormously.The part forward before the rudder shaft is called a "balance", it should have some rounded shape at the leading edge.
"Size isn`t everything,shape matters too".
Make sure with any changes the rudder still clears the prop at full lock. Can`t provide pics,sold the boat several years ago.BruceK

 

[honeybadger]

Thanks BruceK i was able to read and understand rudder balance. I grew up around go fast sport fishing boats most with rear set rudders with no balance, But reading it understanding and looking at the photos of mine i think i will add no more balance but a slight change in the shape and add 2 inches to the rear. I am still on the learning curve from 30 knots and 1200 hp to 10 knots and 75HP.

 

[markpierce]

I finally did it. I removed the standard Californian rounded rudders, had magnesium bronze additions cast and then welded to the originals.
Increased rudder size by about 40%.

Looks like a good idea. Make sure to warn the crew to hold on when you make a sharp turn.

 

[Mappy]

Hi George

How did you make out on your rudder size increase project? I have an 84 Californian 34 and am interested in doing the same job.

THanks
Roger
Victoria BC

Hi all, am a new member and I am working on enlarging the original rounded rudders. My research indicated that the rudders were the same no matter what the power was and were designed for maximum hull speed +/- 20 kts.
I am making a pattern for a square extension, having some casting of magnesium bronze made, and then welded on to the original rudders.
If it works as I hope, I will then do the 2 spare rudders I have the same way and perhaps make them available to other Californian owners.
My boat is a 79, hull #73, based in Ladysmith BC
Perkins 6354, natural 130 hp. Cruising at 7 kt. fuel burn of 2 gph for both and I am very happy with that especially when compared to other trawlers of similar size.
George Creek
Ladysmith BC