Can a wet cored hull be replaced?

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The KK with a bottom job because the Airex was not properly stuck to the outer hull is an old problem of then current construction technique..

Today with modern vacuum tech this problem no longer exists.

A vessel with topsides , deck and pilot house in solid GRP would be very heavy .

Solid GRP below the WL tapered where connecting to the topsides , with good foam cored deck and PH would be about as safe as can be done , even with 3rd world labor.

In a top of the line shop cored & epoxy vacuumed would be fine , but mostly for the lighter weight and perhaps slightly faster speeds on the plane .
 
Ok.. Lots of great information and feedback.

Are there any trawler makers that have solid fiberglass hulls AND solid superstructure and or decks?

Thanks in advance for replies.

Palasz
As a subset to your question - during the past decade, are there any builders of "trawlers" that use core below the waterline? If yes, I'd argue they are weight saving planing hulls using the trawler moniker for marketing purposes only.

The FRP list of current cored power boats of any type between say 30 to 60 feet (below the waterline) is pretty small.
 
Ok.. Lots of great information and feedback.

Are there any trawler makers that have solid fiberglass hulls AND solid superstructure and or decks?

Thanks in advance for replies.



Literally none. Solid fiberglass decks and super structures would have a dramatic adverse effect on stability due raising the CG. For the same reason most steel hulled boats have aluminum superstructures in order to keep the weight low.

Additionally, coring does add rigidity to decks.
 
Follow up:

I contacted a few companies that repair hulls and learned A LOT from one East Coast shop. Wet, cored hulls can be repaired and the cost is 400 to 500 dollars a square foot. Once the repair is complete it is supposed to be better than before and future problems would be minimal...that was my take home message from the conversation.

So, on a 52' KK I am guesstimating 300 square feet or more of repair below the waterline... Just another big number to factor into the buying equation if a future repair is needed..
 
KK 42 are great boats; arguably one of the best for long distance cruising. There was a KK 42 in Pensacola Naval Shipyard for almost a year drying. Had carbide blade Peel, then low humidity, sealed and heat. Next "Hot Vac"--heated pads with vacuum constantly applied. Final solution was "Hot Vac" with thousands of small holes drilled in outer laminate--and got her dry. The outer glass layers were then re-laminated with epoxy. There may be better techniques now.

We were looking at a number of laminates during delamination non destructive testing instrument development studies. Among the samples we worked with were cut outs for a KK 42 bow thruster. We eventually dried them in an oven. The amount of water appeared to be more than what would be expected on the surface. (Dry weight vs initial "wet" weight) Despite being wet, the bonds to fiberglass on both sides were excellent. That boat had spent its life in warm water. Many boat owners, especially with thick laminates, elect to just repair blistering and any delimitation as it occurs, and not do the expensive "solutions" of attempting to completely dry the core and laminate.

Keep in mind that there are a number of "Airex" foams. Some are claimed to adsorb no water, others low amounts of water--and some there is no statement. With time it is not unusual to have some breakdown of various foams. Freeze thaw cycles are one insult to foam, as is pounding or actual crush damage to a core.

My own small cruising vessel has a cored, but dry bottom. I believe you are wise looking for a dry or solid glass bottom CC 42/44.
 
Couple years ago there was a kadey krogen manatee in marathon that was for sale for $12,000 ,,,I was going to buy it but found out that this boat hasn't been hauled out in 25 years and a yacht broker told me the straps will crush the hull when lifted so I backed off. Now i'm pissed because that boat was hauled by the new owner with no problems and sits nicely in key west today. YACHT BROKERS.
 
you had plenty of suggestions but I will ad my .10 cents worth anyhow. Barretts Marine in Spring Lake, Michigan were I keep my boat has dried out plenty of hulls in the 8 years that I have been here. Its a lengthy process but well worth it.
 
Palasz
As a subset to your question - during the past decade, are there any builders of "trawlers" that use core below the waterline? If yes, I'd argue they are weight saving planing hulls using the trawler moniker for marketing purposes only.....
Top of any list would be Beneteau which as discussed previously, I believe builds cored hulls in every boat they make.
 
One of the YouTube channels I follow is Sail Life.

Basically a major refit of a Warrior 38.

The core of his hull was wet, he designed and built his own hot vac system to dry it. His channel is focused on the entire project, not just drying the hull, so the info is sprinkled over several videos.

He shows some of it between minutes 4:00 and 6:30 of this video.

He did his complete hull, while hauled.
 
We looked for a used KK 42 back in the late 90's. We loved the look of the KK42, its displacement hull, large tankage and the single Lehman. Most we looked at were selling for around $200K. They all had water in the coring which caused the hull to deform between bulkheads. The cost to repair the deformed hull and remove the water at the time ranged from $65K - $85K. The repair at that time was done from the inside so tanks had to be removed.

We had Matt Harris as our surveyor.

Jim Krogen was alive then and answered the phone frequently. The Katy Krogen company was still pretty small in those days. He told me that there were periods in the 80's when his representative was not in Taiwan overseeing KK 42 construction and the yard would substitue materials without notifying KK. Jim Krogen said the yard would use non marine plywood and foam coring manufactured in Japan as substitute for the Airex and marine ply.

Jim Krogen said they started building solid bottoms around 1995 but still used foam in the sides of the hull.

Jim Krogen said he would not own a pre 1995 KK42 because of the issues with the foam. He was adamant about that but expressed regret over boats bearing his name with a latent defect.

We bought a 1976 Bluewater 39 Pilothouse Trawler, which has a solid FG hull, with a single Lehman in 2000 that we still own.

The Bluewater has issues too with a plywood cabin sides and roof rotting from water intrusion. But the top sides are easy to repair in comparison to drying and repairing a cored hull. Other than the faded gelcoat the hull has been maintenance free for 20 years
 
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I don't know what to say about some of the comments made here or the motivations behind them.

I've defended my cored hull and would want nothing else.

I've put my little KK42 through more than most.
My boat went on rhe market in 2011.
A potential buyer made an offer and a survey was done in 2012.
The survey found rhe hull was wet.
The remediation took 8 + months and over $70k. By that time, the buyer lost interest and she was put on rhe market again in the first days of 2013.
We came along.
20,000 miles, 30 months and a couple of collisions with Finland rocks and an Elbe River buoy later, we hauled the boat.
Not surprisingly, the hull was wet.
The 8 foot crack didn't help, nor the holes in the skeg.
But boat yards in Ireland see this all the time. Northern Europe is much like Maine, all rocks.
Dauntless sat for outside in the rainy, but more importantly windy, Irish weather. The hull took 6 months to dry.
At that point, the bottom was finished again and the entire hull painted.
That cost me about $10k.

10,000 miles and 18 months later, I hauled the boat in Mexico for the winter of 2017.
The hull was dry.

I've tried to read every account of private boat sinkings I can find for the last 30 years.

Boats have many issues.

Now, with the experience I have, a wet cored hull is simply not on my list of worries.
 
I don't know what to say about some of the comments made here or the motivations behind them.

I've defended my cored hull and would want nothing else....
My boat went on rhe market in 2011.
A potential buyer made an offer and a survey was done in 2012.
The survey found rhe hull was wet.
The remediation took 8 + months and over $70k. By that time, the buyer lost interest and she was put on rhe market again in the first days of 2013.
We came along.
20,000 miles, 30 months and a couple of collisions with Finland rocks and an Elbe River buoy later, we hauled the boat.
Not surprisingly, the hull was wet.
The 8 foot crack didn't help, nor the holes in the skeg.
But boat yards in Ireland see this all the time. Northern Europe is much like Maine, all rocks.
Dauntless sat for outside in the rainy, but more importantly windy, Irish weather. The hull took 6 months to dry.
At that point, the bottom was finished again and the entire hull painted.
That cost me about $10k....
Now, with the experience I have, a wet cored hull is simply not on my list of worries.
Doing my best with dates provided, it seems Dauntless was under repair and unusable for at least 14 months between 2012 and 2016 for a wet hull. You are ok with that, not all would be, me included. It adds to my comfort of walking on a balsa cored Beneteau ST42.
As I read it, you are an underwater event from a repeat. But we all have different tolerance levels, and I hope your hull stay sound and dry.
 
Hello-

My wife and I are looking at 1994 Kadey-Krogen with a cored hull. The coring material is Airex?

IF the hull is wet what are my options? There were only 30 of these yachts manufactured...we only have a dozen on West Coast to choose from.. Wife likes the Whaleback which was made from 1994 to 200? The space is great inside for us.

Can the hull and coring material below the waterline be replaced? Is there anyone in the Anacortes area that I can call to get a rough idea on what this would cost?

Has anyone on this forum had a wet cored hull replaced?

Thanks,

Mike


Airex is a closed-cell PVC foam. The Airex foam itself can't get 'wet'. If there is water in the OuterFRP-Airex-InnerFRP 'sandwich', then it must be between the FRP and the Airex...which suggests delamination, where the bond between the foam and the fiberglass has broken. This is a problem. Below the waterline, water pressure over time will continue to disbond the foam from the fiberglass. Osmotic pressure is now acting on the unprotected inside surfaces of the FRP. Also, if the boat is in a northern climate and spends winters on the hard in freezing temperatures, a few freeze-thaw cycles will make problems much worse.


Most often this water intrusion happens because someone installed a transducer or a thru-hull incorrectly. If this was done some years ago, there could be a LOT of water in this hull.


You need an expert surveyor, and the owner is going to need to approve some 'destructive' testing. Generally this means drilling some small holes through the inside layer of the hull and into the core to see if water starts squirting out. The surveyor will first examine all of the below-the waterline penetrations of the hull to see if any of them were not properly sealed, and then drill first in those locations.


If there are areas where the core has disbonded, the surveyor will be able to tell by 'sounding' the hull with a mallet. I don't know for sure, but I've heard there are moisture-insensitive epoxies that can be injected to make a good repair.



Don't take this lightly. If you get any push-back from the seller, walk away.


Many fine boats are made with cored hull bottems. Many of these boats are ruined by improperly cutting holes in them.
 
Airex is a closed-cell PVC foam. The Airex foam itself can't get 'wet'. If there is water in the OuterFRP-Airex-InnerFRP 'sandwich', then it must be between the FRP and the Airex...which suggests delamination, where the bond between the foam and the fiberglass has broken. This is a problem. Below the waterline, water pressure over time will continue to disbond the foam from the fiberglass. Osmotic pressure is now acting on the unprotected inside surfaces of the FRP. Also, if the boat is in a northern climate and spends winters on the hard in freezing temperatures, a few freeze-thaw cycles will make problems much worse.


Most often this water intrusion happens because someone installed a transducer or a thru-hull incorrectly. If this was done some years ago, there could be a LOT of water in this hull.


You need an expert surveyor, and the owner is going to need to approve some 'destructive' testing. Generally this means drilling some small holes through the inside layer of the hull and into the core to see if water starts squirting out. The surveyor will first examine all of the below-the waterline penetrations of the hull to see if any of them were not properly sealed, and then drill first in those locations.


If there are areas where the core has disbonded, the surveyor will be able to tell by 'sounding' the hull with a mallet. I don't know for sure, but I've heard there are moisture-insensitive epoxies that can be injected to make a good repair.



Don't take this lightly. If you get any push-back from the seller, walk away.


Many fine boats are made with cored hull bottems. Many of these boats are ruined by improperly cutting holes in them.

KDMann, please take this with due respect. I am not being argumentative, put putting forward fact.

Please see my post #35. 1. Airex will absorb water. . 2. The bond between the Airex and the outer laminate can be excellent even in a very wet hull.

From the Airex web site a direct quote under properties:
Low water absorption;
Low resin absorption

The reality is that the many "closed cell" foams will absorb water. There are lots of waterlogged boats which have "closed cell" foams.

As a result of my post #35, the current owner of the KK 42, which was dried out contacted me, told me that the hull has remained dry, and I put him in contact with the technicians who did the drying and repaired his boat.

Although I cannot speak from direct experience, there is ample evidence that a hull laid up with a resin infusion process can have a defective bond. The gelcoat and its several layers of laminate may be laid down in the mold before the remainder of the cut fiberglass pieces are laid into the hull, the membranes and tubes are put in place, and the hull is resin infused. In many shops the resin infusion process is subject to human error. These include a poor bond between these outer layers, when too much time, or contamination occurs between the initial mold layup and infusion. Vacuum may not be complete, a tube not clamped properly, or air induced accidentally. I give an example of a recent thread in "The Hull Truth" forum dealing with a World Cat, where there was catastrophic delimitation of the hull structure in a resin infused hull. This is far from the only example.

I still feel the KK is an excellent cruising boat.
 
Airex T92 vs. generic 'Airex'

KDMann, please take this with due respect. I am not being argumentative, put putting forward fact.


1. Airex will absorb water. . 2. The bond between the Airex and the outer laminate can be excellent even in a very wet hull.

From the Airex web site a direct quote under properties:

The reality is that the many "closed cell" foams will absorb water. There are lots of waterlogged boats which have "closed cell" foams.

...

Hi Thataway,

No disrespect taken, and likewise none intended here, but you missed a key fact and I think both your points are incorrect. I've been researching this pretty heavily since before I bought my first foam-cored hull boat about 10 years ago (a Bayliner with ATC Core-Cell).

Responding to your #1 and #2 points:

#1) Airex makes many foams. The website you looked at covers Airex foams generally. The T92 family Airex foams (which are the only ones Airex sells for hull coring) do not absorb water. Attached image is from the manufacturer's engineering data sheet dated 7/2012.

Now...did KK use Airex T92? I sure hope so. Airex is PVC, as are many other cheaper foams that are not truly 'closed cell', but I have seen KK refer to PVC foam core generically without calling it Airex (see below). Even when they specify Airex, they do not specify T92. I do know that they have evolved away from PVC/Airex in their hull bottoms, first moving to ATC CoreCell (SAN) for a while, and as of now, their website seems to indicate they have abandoned cored hull bottoms altogether.

Just one qualifier here. Even a 'real' closed-cell PVC foam can absorb water if it is crushed or compression fatigued -- but this generally only happens in planing hulls that do a lot of surf-pounding, certainly this wouldn't be the case in a displacement hull like the KK's. This is why you almost always see SAN foam (Core-Cell) in planing hulls, it is much more resistant to hydroshock fatigue.

#2) Whether or not KK ever used water-absorbing PVC foams, we know that FRP is very hygroscopic and absorbs water whether there is a core or not. This is where osmotic blistering (aka osmotic delamination) comes from, and this is why vinylester barrier coats are used. Inside the cored hull sandwich however, there is no water-impervious vinylester barrier to prevent the fiberglass from absorbing water and essentially 'blistering from the inside'.


I will reiterate that if a (true) closed cell foam-cored hull bottom is wet, and especially if it is "very wet", then there will be water in the FRP and delamination due to osmotic pressure in the laminate. Actually...this will happen whether the foam absorbs some of the water or not.

This delamination can be clearly seen in first 10 or so of the photos seen in Post#10 (CptnPete) of a waterlogged KK hull being repaired. Also note how cleanly the outer layer of laminate peeled loose from the little foam blocks. Not one of those little blocks was torn...clearly there was no kind of bonding left between the FRP and the foam.

So, my advice to the original poster (and anyone wanting to buy a boat with a cored hull bottom) is that if the hull bottom is 'wet', then unfortunately you must assume the worst and hope for the best. Destructive testing (drilling for water) is absolutely necessary.
 

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Points well taken. But in the KK 42 sample which we looked at, there was water in the foam core. I have long ago discarded the exact test results. But there was far more water which was removed from the sample than would be expected from water trapped in laminates or between laminate and core. This sample was not from the boat which previously had taken over a year to dry out.

Our study was the development of instrumentation to determine state of bonds in cored hulls non destructively. My partner in our studies was one of the top NDT scientists. He designed the NDT equipment which has been used for many years by aviation, military and NASA. Our goal was to develop an in-expensive bond tester to be used by marine surveyors. Getting away from the less than scientific sounding with a phenolic hammer. The KK sample was only one of multiple samples we tested.

We took samples from 25 hurricane damaged hulls (destined for destruction). We developed a bond testing instrument, and did a marketing survey. The cost was in the $2,000 to $3,000 range- along with a couple of days training; -(compared to a mil spec machine which would cost in the $20,000 range). A few high end yacht builders were interested in purchase. The average commercial boat builder was not interested in scanning their hulls. The vast majority of marine surveyors were not interested. Thus the instruments were never brought to market. The bond on the KK 42 sample was also tested physically, both before drying and after. It was excellent and comparable to any other foams we had tested. The foam was destroyed before the bond was broken. I have no idea what specific foam was used in that KK 42. I might point out that the T 92 your referred to , has "Good adhesion(skin-to-corebond)" couple of bullet points above the "no water absorption".

You give a specific example of the core delamination--Was that boat subject to a freeze thaw cycle? As you pointed out, that will cause delamination . I personally owned a boat which had a cored cockpit deck which had failed due delamination of freeze thaw cycles.

An incident of a cored hull hitting a shipping container:

There are many advantages of a cored hull. I have been involved with the building of boats with cored hulls, although the ones I personally have built had solid laminates.

In 1979 I was watch captain on a 55 foot sailboat which was built of planked balsa (2 1/2 x 2 1/2 balsa coved strip plank construction), with epoxy as a glue, and aluminum nails. The hull was faired with power planes, and long boards before being glassed inside and out. I don't remember the exact laminate schedules, but there was at least 3 layers of 24 oz (with mat) roving outside and at least 2 layers of 24 oz roving on the inner layer. Standard polyester resin was used. The layup was done by Dennis Choate's company. Sometime during a 100 mile leg of the race the 55' sailboat hit a shipping container. We were beating into 8 to 10 foot seas with 55 knots of apparent breeze, making an average of 8 knots. We had a 10 man crew, divided into 2 watches. The damage was not found until we were at our destination. No one had any recollection of a particular time we would have hit, but the boat was doing a lot of pounding. The outer laminate was completely breached by the impact point of a corner of shipping container. There was impact damage for over 2 feet in each direction .The balsa core (remember planked--not end grain) was impacted, but not breached. The inner laminate was torn loose from the balsa planking for an area of about 5 sq feet. One of our considerations in the building of further balsa stripped planked hulls was that they should tie the inner and outer laminates together. Some foam hulls have a tie between inner and outer laminates; most do not. My speculation was that many solid glass hulls might not have survived the impact.

I have not owned a KK, so I cannot address how the hull behaves in a heavy seaway. But most hulls work and distort, all be it not as much as a high end race boat (either power or sail) I have sailed on cored racing sailboats, and their hull has worked in heavy seas, when driven hard. Solid hulls work also. Some fiberglass hulls eventually fail, as the resin breaks down. (I also owned a "floppy hull": this was a solid laminate 23' sail boat made by Islander, back in the 60's--I owned the boat in the mid 80's. It was an interim boat between long distance cruising boats. I glassed in foam "forms" to give the hull stiffness. The boat was donated to Sea Scouts when I bought a larger cruising boat.)

You make a statement:
we know that FRP is very hygroscopic and absorbs water whether there is a core or not.
. I am not going to get into a debate with you about osmotic blistering, (which I have been studying since the late 1960's, including examining a number of boats in the Med, including one what eventually was destroyed). But fiberglass polyester laminate acts as a semipermeable membrane, that allows an osmotic process. Not because fiberglass polyester resin is "hygroscopic". Salt is hygroscopic it attracts moisture from its surroundings.
 
Points well taken... Not because fiberglass polyester resin is "hygroscopic". Salt is hygroscopic it attracts moisture from its surroundings.


All polyesters are hygroscopic. This includes polyester resins used in boat hulls. This has been known for more than 60 years.



If polyester resins were not hygroscopic, we would never see osmotic blistering.



https://www.google.com/search?q="polyester"+"hygroscopic"
 
I also have a KK with a cored hull. Although there are various methods that yards have used to deal with the wet core issue, there are many out there cruising “with” wet hulls. Of course a dry hull is preferable, but if you’re not in a freezing climate, you may never know the difference. I recently driilled my hull, ground out some major blisters, and let it drain for over 100 days. Never got more than an ounce total out of the entire effort. Another owner drains his hull every time he gets a bottom job and tells me he gets about two gallons, but the boat lives in warm water. Still another owner had his hull pealed and vacuum drained, then deluged daily with alchohol for two weeks. When they glassed it back up, moisture was down below 10% (14% is acceptable). Then there’s Osprey Composites in Maryland who kind of developed the technique for Krogen, regularly doing 42’s and Manatees. I got an estimate for peal, dry and re-glass two years ago for over 20K with a five year guarantee. The point is that if you intent is to make a boat with a wet hull perfect, it may take a major money and time investment. If you want to re-seal the through hulls, drill and wait to dry, it might take less $$ but still a bit of time. If you want to enjoy it as is, you probably can, but all the options should still reflect your possible investment. Buying a Krogen with a wet hull is really no big deal if you buy it right to begin with. Find a surveyor who love his hammer and moisture meter, and make sure you know if it is salt water or fresh water intrusion.

Do you know what KK used for core on the foredeck area below the close to the front of the boat?

Thanks,
Roger
 
Ok.. Lots of great information and feedback.

Are there any trawler makers that have solid fiberglass hulls AND solid superstructure and or decks?

Thanks in advance for replies.


Although not a trawler, I am pretty sure that some of the NautiCat 33 motorsailers are solid fiderglass hull and decks.
 
All polyesters are hygroscopic. This includes polyester resins used in boat hulls. This has been known for more than 60 years.

If polyester resins were not hygroscopic, we would never see osmotic blistering.

https://www.google.com/search?q="polyester"+"hygroscopic"

The folly of using google to make snap judgments on complicated subjects such as polymers.

Your search simply references some research regarding additives to make polyester more absorbent so that material for athletic clothes can absorb more moisture. I see nothing regarding polyester resins used in the marine fiberglass industry.
 
Core works like a I beam. In order to achieve strength and rigidity the core must be firmly attached to both skins. This is true regardless of what material is used as core. I insisted on my last boat which was a new build all balsa be replaced with divynicell or core cell. That design had solid grp for the entire hull so core only used on decking and house. Current new to me boat had some elevated readings on the boat deck. Entire outer skin removed and all balsa replaced with closed cell foam. Did this even though this was non structural given hull was not involved.
If you cruise anywhere where there’s a freeze/warm cycle for any cored structure delamination will occur. As the water freezes it expands lifting the skin. May be just as bad with closed cell foam as the water is trapped between the skin and core. This isn’t a big deal except in the hull. As strength is lost more oilcanning will occur and more delaminating.
You say you’re going to the northeast. So you will have freeze cycles. I would either get an estimate for a repair and put one and 1/2 x that amount in escrow for the repair as part of purchase. Or discount purchase price by that amount. To do this right is very expensive. We put 2x our estimate in escrow ($40k) and still ran over a bit. Finished job is stronger than original construction and has no seams as we did the entire deck so is aesthetically perfect. That was just for a boat deck. When and if you this have either G10 or solid grp inserts at every piercing of the skins. You will end up with a strong imperious hull but it will be expensive to do if done right.

In short for hull (not deck) have several surveyors tap and moisture read the boat. Moisture reading is a art as well as a science. Different surveyors and different moisture readers will give different results. Take the worst readings and surveyors reports as your guideline. Don’t accept anything but a entirely dry hull as a final outcome after repair. Delamination in a hull means less strength now and even less in the future.
 
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