Changing an impeller advice

[NedZ]

I want to change the raw water cooling impeller on a new to us Grand Banks 36 with a Cat 3208NA 210 HP engine. The available space is very tight. I'm thinking it may be necessary to temporarily remove the water pump to make the change. Does anyone have experience with this set-up and what's the best approach to use? Thanks.

 

[ofer]

just replaced mine on a 3304 not sure if its similar to yours.

I purchased the large impeller puller and had to modify the center threaded Shraft by shortening it about 2 inches. that worked for me.

in general impellers always seems to be in hard to reach places and sometimes the raw water pump have to be removed.

 

[Comodave]

Look at impellertool.com. They make a funnel type of tool that makes it very easy to reinstall the new impeller. The starboard engine on our last boat was almost impossible to change the impeller on. The mechanics that had serviced the boat said they had to pull the pump to change the impeller. With the tool I was able to change the impeller in under a half hour with the pump in place. I bought a Jabsco impeller puller. Had to get some metric threaded rod and put double nuts on it to pull the old impeller since the T handle that came with the pump wouldn’t turn, the T hit a pipe. No affiliation.

 

[ranger58sb]

I've read it's not uncommon to remove the pump, swap in a spare pump right away, and then change the impeller in the "now removed" pump on the bench.

BTW, that impeller tool mentioned above is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

-Chris

 

[Portage_Bay]

I want to change the raw water cooling impeller on a new to us Grand Banks 36 with a Cat 3208NA 210 HP engine. The available space is very tight. I'm thinking it may be necessary to temporarily remove the water pump to make the change. Does anyone have experience with this set-up and what's the best approach to use? Thanks.

I am due soon for my 1st impeller change on the raw water pumps on 3208NAs. As far as I can tell there isn't enough clearance without pulling the pump.

 

[jungpeter]

Hi NedZ,

Unfortunately, one of the unadvertised "features" of the CAT 3208 in marine service is the virtual reality of having to remove the raw water pump from the engine to replace the impeller. With all due respect to CAT, your design guys need to pay more attention to post-installation service needs of an engine in your basic marinization design(s). And that's a polite way to say "you guys stink".

So yes, remove the pump, haul it ashore onto your workbench, obtain any of the plethora of tools needed to remove and reinstall your impeller (and service your pump in general), and have at it. Then plan to do so again after your chosen service interval (I chose 300 hours for my comfort level), then rinse and repeat.

And given the silly thing is belt-driven, watch the tension, alignment, and service life of the drive belt like a hawk. Personally, I routinely replaced my pump belt at the same time as the impeller, whether it needed it or not. Losing a belt underway leads to a rapid overheat, just as losing an impeller. And that's not a good thing, for so very many reasons.

Regards,

Pete

 

[NedZ]

Thanks for the input

Thanks all of you. I'm afraid I will need to remove the pump as you suggest. I do have a Jabsco impeller puller. Now just need to deal with the hose connections and pull it. I may swear a little!

 

[psneeld]

On my 3208T 320hp Cats, my Starboard engine was no problem, but my port engine had limited access so I would just pull the whole pump.

The boat was up north, so winterization just involved pulling both pumps and taking them home. I would pull the impellers, inspect, and if good replace every other year. Then reinstall at spring commissioning.

 

[Fish53]

I've read it's not uncommon to remove the pump, swap in a spare pump right away, and then change the impeller in the "now removed" pump on the bench.

BTW, that impeller tool mentioned above is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

-Chris

That's what I've done for years, not only does it simplify the job and make it go more quickly you also always have a spare pump. I obviously also carry spare impellers. Another little trick is replacing the screws on the cover with studs and nylock nuts.

 

[Osprey69]

Hi NedZ,

Unfortunately, one of the unadvertised "features" of the CAT 3208 in marine service is the virtual reality of having to remove the raw water pump from the engine to replace the impeller. With all due respect to CAT, your design guys need to pay more attention to post-installation service needs of an engine in your basic marinization design(s). And that's a polite way to say "you guys stink".

So yes, remove the pump, haul it ashore onto your workbench, obtain any of the plethora of tools needed to remove and reinstall your impeller (and service your pump in general), and have at it. Then plan to do so again after your chosen service interval (I chose 300 hours for my comfort level), then rinse and repeat.

And given the silly thing is belt-driven, watch the tension, alignment, and service life of the drive belt like a hawk. Personally, I routinely replaced my pump belt at the same time as the impeller, whether it needed it or not. Losing a belt underway leads to a rapid overheat, just as losing an impeller. And that's not a good thing, for so very many reasons.

Regards,

Pete

Jung even with the "Impellertool" you still need to remove the pumps?

 

[Simi 60]

We remove the pump on our 855 Cummins, belt driven so an easy job.

Pump is big enough that no special tools are needed for the impeller
10 minutes on table in cockpit

We carry a spare pump, impeller removed so as not to set.

 

[jungpeter]

Jung even with the "Impellertool" you still need to remove the pumps?

Well, I can only state that on my 78-vintage 3208NAs, there is an external cooling line and fittings (for the oil cooler, as I recall) that precludes removal of the pump cover and impeller in situ. Hence, off come the pump(s) to replace the impeller. Not too tough on the starboard engine of a twin engine installation, as the coolant pump is inboard. A royal PIA on the port side.

Once off the engine, various "Impellertools" will aid and abet the impeller change, as well as service to the rest of the pump as required.

Regards,

Pete

 

[tiltrider1]

You guys must have some ridiculously tight applications. I have 3208’s, it is 3 bolts and the bracket is then loose from the engine. Remove the belt, loosen two hose clamps and spin the pump around. Four screws and off comes the back plate. Two screw drivers and you pop the old impeller out.. If some one installed the correct impeller there is a cheap tool to remove the impeller but I have never had an issue with just popping the impeller out.

Even it you want to do it on the bench there isn’t much to taking the pump off the engine.

 

[Irish Rambler]

Would some enterprising younger fellow please start to remanufacture the 'Speedseal Run Dry' impeller kits ?
Sheesh if I could turn the clock back I'd jump at the opportunity. It would make a nice family enterprise for a someone with an engineering background.
There's also a large market with the military as well as us guys.
I had one fitted to a Birchwood/Perkins engine for over 10 years with no need to change the impeller.
I have one fitted to my present boat for over 8 yrs which has done thousands of miles and never had to change an impeller.
The man who designed it had to give up the business for health reasons.
C'mon you guys there must be someone out there who'd like a business handed on a plate.

 

[Simi 60]

Would some enterprising younger fellow please start to remanufacture the 'Speedseal Run Dry' impeller kits ?

What's so good or special about them?
How do they make impellers last so long?

 

[Irish Rambler]

OK Simi. Brief description.
Firstly the reason impellers burn out is lack of water (to lubricate) so they overheat and burn out/disintegrate.
The idea of the 'Run Dry' is to allow them to spin dry for up to 20 minutes as there's no friction on the inner/outer parts of the impeller they don't overheat.
The existing Jabsco body is kept, after removing the old impeller a ptfe insert is placed then a new impeller is inserted, the old outer cover and screws are discarded. The old 6 tiny slotted screws are replaced with 4 bolts with a large knurled nut (no tools are needed to fit/replace them).
The outer cover is bronze but slightly thicker than the original and retained by 4 knurled nut headed bolts, inside the outer cover/face plate is a brass disc which can freely rotate, an 'O' ring seals the face plate.
Knurled nuts, 'O' rings, ptfe sheet can all be bought freely on the open market as can the impellers, the only part which requires machining is the face plate.
Living on a boat has its freedoms but also its restrictions, if I lived in a house I'd put a lathe in my garage and make them myself.

 

[Bustlebomb]

Ned,

I have twin 3208NA engines in my boat and change the impellers without taking the pumps off the engine. Is it tight? Yes, a bit, but doable.

I take off the rear cover, being careful not to lose the small bolts that hold on the cover. I then use a pair of pliers to grab the impeller by the vanes. I pull on one of the vanes then move across to the vane opposite the first one I pulled and pull it. After doing this a few times, the impeller starts to pull out.

Once out, I take the new impeller and lube it up with the glycerin that comes with it or with dish soap. I’ve tried several different things that others have suggested including collapsing the impeller with zip ties or other clamps, but, to be honest, I found it easier just to squeeze the impeller down and start to push it into the housing while twisting. Once the splines engage, this is where it becomes a bit difficult but, again, still doable.

I use a rag or other cushion to cover the exhaust manifold and, placing the back of my hand against the exhaust manifold, I push the impeller into the pump body with my palm. It sometimes helps to use the fingers from your other hand to collapse the vanes a bit.

Once you do the first one and figure out the leverage points, the subsequent one is easier.

For me, the starboard engine is easy as the pump is accessible in the midline of the engine room. The port engine requires a bit of contorting as the pump is near the side of the hall but it’s still accessible.

I suppose the worst that could happen is you are unable to get the impeller back in and have to take the pump off. Might still be worth a try.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Matt

 

[Simi 60]

OK Simi. Brief description.

Thanks for that.
Cruising full time our seacock is always open so I expect lack of water will not be a problem for us.

I did know about the wing nut quick release and that's an easy mod but the machined disc inside was a new one.

 

[Irish Rambler]

Simi, the idea is that if your raw water strainer gets blocked you will have no water to cool the impeller.
The system used knurled nuts not wingnuts.
The ptfe insert and machined disc are the key factor in keeping the impeller cool, the retaining nuts are for quick impeller changes.

 

[FF]

"Now just need to deal with the hose connections and pull it."

There is a special tool to make removing a hose from a fitting easily.

https://www.jbtools.com/sg-tool-aid...MIvMHymJq68QIVgm1vBB32fQh5EAQYASABEgKog_D_BwE

 

[PM]

Ive done it both ways. Its really an individual decision. Neither option is more than a couple hours of work.

pete

 

[Comodave]

I put Speedseals on our last boat, wonderful. They really work well. Too bad they closed up shop. One of the impellers was a bugger to change, could not even see the pump, had to work by feel with one hand. The Speedseal made it easy since it has an O ring not a paper gasket. No cleaning off the gasket residue. Then the impellertool made it easy to slide the new impeller into the pump. Very easy. It went from an OMG chore to 20 minutes. Still hard to reach the pump but very doable.

 

[greatpapabear]

I've read it's not uncommon to remove the pump, swap in a spare pump right away, and then change the impeller in the "now removed" pump on the bench.

-Chris

That's exactly what I do. So much easier to change an impeller when the pump is removed.

 

[IntoTheBlue]

I do not CATs, but do have tight conditions making it difficult to remove the impeller. Definitely no room for a puller of any kind. I purchased a impeller remover (looks like a modified long nose pliers with bent tips) which helps. The company I bought them from is Bayshore Marine Engines. I'm not sure if they are still available.

I did read once a suggestion that I use. Simply "bump" the engine by a quick start/stop sequence with the impeller cover off. The impeller will begin to move out. Once out about an 1/8 inch it is easy to grab and pull out the rest of the way with the impeller remover.

Enjoy!

 

[FF]

One trick that is a great help is to change the cover holding screws from flat head slotted screws to hex head.They need not be seen to get the hex head tool to engage.

The are available at most hardware stores n SS , buy a dozen so if one is dropped its no big deal.

Remember most SS is no stringer than bronze so don't over tighten them.

 

[catalinajack]

That's what I've done for years, not only does it simplify the job and make it go more quickly you also always have a spare pump. I obviously also carry spare impellers. Another little trick is replacing the screws on the cover with studs and nylock nuts.

Studs and nylocs, what a simple and elegant solution. Putting the cover back on now just involves slipping the cover onto the studs and stays in place while the nuts are screwed on, a tremendous aid when having to work blindly. McMasterCar, here I come. I did the same for my valve covers on my Lehman 120s. Cork gaskets slipped over the studs, cover on, tighten nuts. No more danger of gasket not staying in place with just a bit of RTV to hold the gasket in place.

 

[CompuNerd]

Different engine, same problem. ca. 2002 Cummins 6BT with a Sherwood pump, which does not have a plate for impeller changes. You have to remove the entire pump from the engine, then remove the impeller housing from the pump -- and naturally space is ridiculously impractical for any decent tools. Estimated service times for this engine are from another planet, as they were made at the factory while the engine was on the bench.

A different raw water pump with access plates is ~ $1000 and requires rerouting hoses.

Welcome to no-good-options land.

 

[rslifkin]

Different engine, same problem. ca. 2002 Cummins 6BT with a Sherwood pump, which does not have a plate for impeller changes. You have to remove the entire pump from the engine, then remove the impeller housing from the pump -- and naturally space is ridiculously impractical for any decent tools. Estimated service times for this engine are from another planet, as they were made at the factory while the engine was on the bench.

A different raw water pump with access plates is ~ $1000 and requires rerouting hoses.

Welcome to no-good-options land.

Sounds like my Mercruiser gassers. In theory you can pull the pump housing in place, but in reality, at least with how the engines are mounted on my boat, there's not good enough access past the stringers to get tools in there. So you have to pull the belt and pulley off the pump, then remove the whole pump. Getting the pump in and out isn't that bad once you've done it once or twice, but until you figure out the best way to do it, it's a pain. It's still a bit slow and tedious, but once the pump is off, the impeller swap and reassembly is only a few minutes.

 

[BlindHog]

Hi NedZ,

And given the silly thing is belt-driven, watch the tension, alignment, and service life of the drive belt like a hawk. Personally, I routinely replaced my pump belt at the same time as the impeller, whether it needed it or not. Losing a belt underway leads to a rapid overheat, just as losing an impeller. And that's not a good thing, for so very many reasons.

THIS! I blew a MTU engine in a sporty on a sea trial due to a lose belt. Temp went from normal to redline in about 1.2 seconds.

 

[Moonfish]

Would some enterprising younger fellow please start to remanufacture the 'Speedseal Run Dry' impeller kits ?

I had the same thought! I installed the Speed Seals on our boat a couple years ago, and actually had an email convo with the guy in England who invented/made them. He was very interested in having us make a video and sell them in our online store, but he said he needed to hold off. Later I learned why...

Even had a conversation with an engineer friend of mine about taking up the manufacturing, marketing, etc. But then he got a full time job, so no go there. I'm with you, though. It'll just take someone with the knowledge and manufacturing capacity to start it up again. Because Speed Seals are an impressive, simple little raw water pump upgrade.