Nomad Willy
Guru
HaHa jim,
Yup. I was in the USN 1961-1964.
But I know well how big they are.
Yup. I was in the USN 1961-1964.
But I know well how big they are.
Choosing a Bower Primarily for Sand/Mud versus for Rock
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BruceK
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Steve/SV Panope(where are you Steve,did the anchor Police get you?) did some progressive scope shortening tests on several anchors with impressive short scope holding from several.It may not be recommended, but good to know, and could be handy now and then.
Nomad Willy
Guru
BruceK,
I look at it this way. Any anchor that can only make a poor showing (significantly below average) at short scope isn’t worth having.
Steve’s tests were “setting vids” but there’s many takaways on holding. Rocna is probably King Kong at long scope and Manson Supreme is KK at short scope. Most any anchor does well on long scope but far fewer excell at short scope. And it’s much harder to find anchorages for long scope. So anchors that lean toward short scope performance are more usable it would seem.
Bruce,
Steve’s last visit to TF was last July. I have no idea why his disappearance.
I look at it this way. Any anchor that can only make a poor showing (significantly below average) at short scope isn’t worth having.
Steve’s tests were “setting vids” but there’s many takaways on holding. Rocna is probably King Kong at long scope and Manson Supreme is KK at short scope. Most any anchor does well on long scope but far fewer excell at short scope. And it’s much harder to find anchorages for long scope. So anchors that lean toward short scope performance are more usable it would seem.
Bruce,
Steve’s last visit to TF was last July. I have no idea why his disappearance.
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Regarding size of available Northills, they appear rather straight forward to fabricate. Non folding of course. A large percentage of the fishing boats that I've seen all over Asia are equipped with them. I was told a 300 lb for a 80 ton boat, which meets Class rules. You guys mentioned these are really common in the PNW and I suppose most of those are just welded up and galvanized "homemade" models.
ranger58sb
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Except apparently in soft mud, I guess... per the Fortress testing...
A different thought: I've posited an 88-pound Anything anchor (for example) will set and hold better than a 44-pound Anything (same Anything) in most conditions. Partly from weight and size.
I suspect a potential corollary is that an 88-pound Anything will also set and hold better than most 44-lb Something-or-others, maybe plus/minus 20- or 25-lbs or so, for the same reasons.
I suppose the rode make-up could improve both of those situations.
Without much regard to boat weight, at least for setting, and probably holding in less than storm conditions. Of course, boat weight/windage would become determinant in storm conditions, better guiding anchor weight selection.
-Chris
Nomad Willy
Guru
Ranger wrote;
“A different thought: I've posited an 88-pound Anything anchor (for example) will set and hold better than a 44-pound Anything (same Anything) in most conditions. Partly from weight and size.”
Indeed a different thought but a valid one to keep in mind if I’m right about my thinking. That is that the smaller the anchor the easierit it is to set. Asssuming the anchor is presenting it’s fluke/flukes to the seafloor the bigger anchor will present more weight to penetrate. But it depends on the anchor. Anchors vary a lot as to what percentage of their total weight they have or present to the sea floor. And how is it presented. A Claw presents it’s weight percentage in a near vertical orentation. A Danforth presents its percentage/weight almost flat or horizontal to the bottom. Very different. The Claw has much more weight presented to the setting fluke than the Dan but the “presentation” is basically vertical whereas the Dan’s fluke is nearly horizontal. But then the setting force also involves the pull on the rode. A nearly horizontal force. The Claw fluke is rather blunt and “fat” whereas the Dan fluke is rather sharp. Not apples and apples at all.
And any anchor needs fwd motion or pull on the rode for any setting to take place. There’s been many comments that go something like “that anchor is too big for that little boat to set”. Or (haven’t heard it) if that 80 footer tried to set a 13lb Dan you wouldn’t feel the set and barely feel the max hold and the breakout not at all.
So it’s hard to do the comparison you suggest but clearly what you suggest is a significant part of the dynamics of the anchoring equation. Also for my boat (examp) a44lb Claw would hold my boat in 15-20 knot winds w/o setting whereas a 12lb Claw would set and perhaps break out under the same circumstances.
And then it takes very little pull on the rode to set some anchors and much more to set others. A 25lb Dan has flukes like knives and penetrates the seafloor easily whereas the Claw fluke is rather blunt (not sharp) but has lots more downward force for penetration with or without the sideways motion necessary for setting. But they both set well.
Ranger this may be a can of worms that needs opening but any useful conclusions may be illusive because of all the variables.
Many would just say “Why talk about it? A big anchor will hold and a small anchor will not”. But it’s not that simple. Not at all. Perhaps I should substitute “complicated” for simple and that changes everything. For it is very complicated indeed.
“A different thought: I've posited an 88-pound Anything anchor (for example) will set and hold better than a 44-pound Anything (same Anything) in most conditions. Partly from weight and size.”
Indeed a different thought but a valid one to keep in mind if I’m right about my thinking. That is that the smaller the anchor the easierit it is to set. Asssuming the anchor is presenting it’s fluke/flukes to the seafloor the bigger anchor will present more weight to penetrate. But it depends on the anchor. Anchors vary a lot as to what percentage of their total weight they have or present to the sea floor. And how is it presented. A Claw presents it’s weight percentage in a near vertical orentation. A Danforth presents its percentage/weight almost flat or horizontal to the bottom. Very different. The Claw has much more weight presented to the setting fluke than the Dan but the “presentation” is basically vertical whereas the Dan’s fluke is nearly horizontal. But then the setting force also involves the pull on the rode. A nearly horizontal force. The Claw fluke is rather blunt and “fat” whereas the Dan fluke is rather sharp. Not apples and apples at all.
And any anchor needs fwd motion or pull on the rode for any setting to take place. There’s been many comments that go something like “that anchor is too big for that little boat to set”. Or (haven’t heard it) if that 80 footer tried to set a 13lb Dan you wouldn’t feel the set and barely feel the max hold and the breakout not at all.
So it’s hard to do the comparison you suggest but clearly what you suggest is a significant part of the dynamics of the anchoring equation. Also for my boat (examp) a44lb Claw would hold my boat in 15-20 knot winds w/o setting whereas a 12lb Claw would set and perhaps break out under the same circumstances.
And then it takes very little pull on the rode to set some anchors and much more to set others. A 25lb Dan has flukes like knives and penetrates the seafloor easily whereas the Claw fluke is rather blunt (not sharp) but has lots more downward force for penetration with or without the sideways motion necessary for setting. But they both set well.
Ranger this may be a can of worms that needs opening but any useful conclusions may be illusive because of all the variables.
Many would just say “Why talk about it? A big anchor will hold and a small anchor will not”. But it’s not that simple. Not at all. Perhaps I should substitute “complicated” for simple and that changes everything. For it is very complicated indeed.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Ranger wrote;
“I suspect a potential corollary is that an 88-pound Anything will also set and hold better than most 44-lb Something-or-others, maybe plus/minus 20- or 25-lbs or so, for the same reasons.”
Yes ....... as long as the 88 didn’t drag or break out for some reason that would not drag or break out the 44. Variables. But if you consider a uniform bottom like sand or not hard mud you’re basically say’in bigger is better. But there are variables. What if it was hard mud? A 44 w sharp flukes and weight on them may set and hold the boat whereas the 88 would likely not penetrate and just skid along the bottom. Given those variables bigger is better would fail.
But in most anchoring conditions bigger rules.
“I suspect a potential corollary is that an 88-pound Anything will also set and hold better than most 44-lb Something-or-others, maybe plus/minus 20- or 25-lbs or so, for the same reasons.”
Yes ....... as long as the 88 didn’t drag or break out for some reason that would not drag or break out the 44. Variables. But if you consider a uniform bottom like sand or not hard mud you’re basically say’in bigger is better. But there are variables. What if it was hard mud? A 44 w sharp flukes and weight on them may set and hold the boat whereas the 88 would likely not penetrate and just skid along the bottom. Given those variables bigger is better would fail.
But in most anchoring conditions bigger rules.
foreverunderway
Senior Member
Are you implying that a 144# any type of anchor would be advisable on a 77,000# boat, just because it is a heavier anchor?
Safe anchoring is not a freestyle mish-mash of throwing a whole bunch of heavy metal into the water. It is a science of matching anchor, chain, and windlass to the size and configuration of the boat. It is also not about every day (night) weather one encounters, but that once or twice in a lifetime experience where you find yourself in breaking surf with your butt to the bricks. Or your engine has let you down and the only thing you have left to save your boat and possibly the lives of those aboard is your ground tackle.
I had a 75# genuine CQR before I got the 88# Rocna, not a very significant weight difference, I think you will agree. Actually, that's just about 4 feet of chain difference in weight in the water. Yet anchoring in exactly the same anchorages, repeatedly, not just occasionally, the Rocna has proven itself to be a far superior anchor time and time again. I sincerely doubt that this is because the Rocna weighs 13 pounds more.
foreverunderway
Senior Member
How do you get three different chain sizes to go through your windlass?
Nomad Willy
Guru
forever,
I think he had/has a drum winch.
Like as seen on most fish boats in the PNW USA.
I think he had/has a drum winch.
Like as seen on most fish boats in the PNW USA.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Moonfish wrote;
“We've only ever used the 65# Forfjord that came on our boat. Over 6 years and 3,500+ miles from Olympia to the Broughtons we have never dragged that anchor, even in 35 knots+. The previous owner went through a night in Alaska with 50kt winds and it held (said he didn't sleep a wink that night, though!).”
Lots of guys w Claws say basically the same too. It isn’t the anchor in either case but It could be that you know what you’re doing .. ok probably.
The fishermen in Craig say “holds in 50 knot summer gales but drags in 60 knot winter gales”. Wouldn’t hold at all if they didn’t have such heavy ground tackle. Like foreverunderway writes “Safe anchoring is not a freestyle mish-mash of throwing a bunch of heavy metal into the water”. But according to you Darren that’s exactly how it’s done. But as I said or implied one needs to plant the anchor in the right place and lay out the rode correctly.
“We've only ever used the 65# Forfjord that came on our boat. Over 6 years and 3,500+ miles from Olympia to the Broughtons we have never dragged that anchor, even in 35 knots+. The previous owner went through a night in Alaska with 50kt winds and it held (said he didn't sleep a wink that night, though!).”
Lots of guys w Claws say basically the same too. It isn’t the anchor in either case but It could be that you know what you’re doing .. ok probably.
The fishermen in Craig say “holds in 50 knot summer gales but drags in 60 knot winter gales”. Wouldn’t hold at all if they didn’t have such heavy ground tackle. Like foreverunderway writes “Safe anchoring is not a freestyle mish-mash of throwing a bunch of heavy metal into the water”. But according to you Darren that’s exactly how it’s done. But as I said or implied one needs to plant the anchor in the right place and lay out the rode correctly.
foreverunderway
Senior Member
OK, that makes sense. I'm not too enamored with the idea that as he lets out scope, supposedly for deeper water or heavier weather, his ground tackle get less strong. I have done everything in my power to ensure that there is no weak link anywhere in my ground tackle. Then I add a nylon snub of elasticity @ almost 5 times the SWL of the metal parts.
I have the Davis superhook which is the forfjord and I’ve drug that sucker all over everything anytime I’ve had anyone rafted to me. It did okay with just me, but I stayed awake anytime we had weather. I think it was 60 or 65. It sits in my lazarette these days as a backup. I think these (fjorford style ) are not great anchors except when used severely oversized.
ranger58sb
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No, not really saying that. More like a 144-lb Anything will likely set and hold better than an 80-lb Anything.
Not really trying to compare Anythings to Something-Elses, and not at all disagreeing that some anchor designs are better than others in various substrate, some better than others for a given boat, etc. Certainly the whole system is critical, as is technique...
I notice it's not uncommon for somebody to say their 144-lb Anything is obviously way better than their previous 80-lb Anything. Or sometimes way better than another boat's 80-lb Something-Else. Although that latter branches out across designs, I just think there's maybe a "Duh!" factor in there somewhere...
-Chris
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Seems like with anchors "mine IS bigger than yours" really does make a difference,
yet the anchor assemblers tout their latest watch fobs.
Strange marketing.
yet the anchor assemblers tout their latest watch fobs.
Strange marketing.
