Collision and demasting

[psneeld]

I don’t believe the NOAA VMS has a minimum size regulation. NOAA is with different regs based upon locale.

Correct and some by fishery I believe.

But how would any of us know they even needed or were "dark" VMS....or how it would help prevent a collision?

That is why I limited it to something that would definitely be a red flag to LE.

 

[Mark Laurnen]

Thank you Don for starting this meandering, bickering thread ... it actually does contain some good information and valid discussion. I hope you haven't taken some of the posts too personally, as I felt some were potentially offensive to you. I think the one thing all would agree upon, is that we ALL are truly thankful you and your wife were not seriously injured and can go on to boat another day. What I take away is that I have been fortunate. Despite being careful, I have made mistakes along the way, gotten off lucky, and vowed never to repeat the inciting action again. I probably have more experience than some, and less than most, of the other readers of this forum ... but we are ALL human, and none of us should be so arrogant as to think that subject to the right (or exactly wrong!) circumstances we would not fall victim to similar, or worse, accidents. Life is tenuous at best, we all strive to avoid accidents but they will occur nonetheless.

 

[DDW]

Our experience in SE AK finds licensed F/V all seem to be with locators or AIS.

Surprised at your experience there. I've been all the way up a few times and I'd say 80% of the small FV are not broadcasting AIS. I've asked several captains and they say they either don't have it or don't turn it on, because they don't want to be tracked - both by other boats or the Feds. Recreational fishing vessels are much more likely to have it turned on. The situation shifts suddenly as you cross the border into BC - I think BC has some very surveillance oriented commercial fishing regs.

well the FV in this thread was 75.7'

Would he have been required to have AIS then? Do you (did you) have an AIS receiver?

If he is required to have AIS, then his location on the day will have been tracked & recorded and can be looked up - speed, course, etc. If he is required to have, and did not have turned on, then that shifts the burden a bit.

 

[psneeld]

I posted this back on page 1, Post #9

"If the fishing boat was being tracked (AIS or VMS) and there was a record of it's speed, pretty easy to confer it was fishing. If so I believe NAVRULE 18 makes sail vessels the give way vessel.

Even so, there is almost always distributed blame."

There aren't many facts presented so far, will be interesting to see if any show up.

 

[Don L]

I hope you haven't taken some of the posts too personally, as I felt some were potentially offensive to you. .

definitely have, mostly from one consistent know it all who feels he knows more than everyone and needs to keep at it

When everything runs it course I may not even post it here

 

[psneeld]

definitely have, mostly from one consistent know it all who feels he knows more than everyone and needs to keep at it

When everything runs it course I may not even post it here

You have pretty much shown that I do know a bit.

Isnt that expected from a professional mariner and instructor versus a recreational boater?

Just keeping things straight for the benefit of those without a lot of experience if they care to keep an open mind.

 

[Mark Laurnen]

I’ve finally had enough, time to weigh in before I quit following this thread. Pnsleed, can you give it a rest? I have been in healthcare for 36 years, meeting new people 4-8 times a day before making minute by minute decisions upon their wellbeing, if not their life, depends. I certainly cannot match your ego. I am surrounded by genius, but I have little respect for those who continuously blow their own horn … in my experience, talent speaks for itself and those who know the most usually say the least.

 

[Larry M]

A reminder of the Trawler Forum rules:

Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Excessive sarcasm, belligerence, insults, profanity, anger, offensive comments about race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, and national origin, are not acceptable.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[mvweebles]

You have pretty much shown that I do know a bit.

Isnt that expected from a professional mariner and instructor versus a recreational boater?

Just keeping things straight for the benefit of those without a lot of experience if they care to keep an open mind.

The most effective teachers earn respect through leadership, not proclaimation. They are lifelong learners with strong mentoring skills. Their role is not to espouse wisdom, but transfer it in a digestible manner. In short, a good teacher or professional must also have an open mind. In fact, given their SME status, it's incumbent on them to lead the way.

A little humility goes a long way.....

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

The most effective teachers earn respect through leadership, not proclaimation. They are lifelong learners with strong mentoring skills. Their role is not to espouse wisdom, but transfer it in a digestible manner. In short, a good teacher or professional must also have an open mind. In fact, given their SME status, it's incumbent on them to lead the way.

A little humility goes a long way.....

Peter

A long way.

 

[BruceK]

I`m no psneeld fan/follower as history shows, but in this thread he seems to have asked the reasonable and fair probing questions to get to the nub of what happened, and related experiences in what appears a objective way. Self promotion isn`t helpful, by and large his has been an intelligent on point contribution to a situation where all the facts are not and likely never will be discovered, especially as the OP has expressly said the results of any official determination may not be shared. That`s despite the interest and contributions of so many TF members.

 

[Davil1]

Thank you Don for starting this meandering, bickering thread ... it actually does contain some good information and valid discussion. I hope you haven't taken some of the posts too personally, as I felt some were potentially offensive to you. I think the one thing all would agree upon, is that we ALL are truly thankful you and your wife were not seriously injured and can go on to boat another day. What I take away is that I have been fortunate. Despite being careful, I have made mistakes along the way, gotten off lucky, and vowed never to repeat the inciting action again. I probably have more experience than some, and less than most, of the other readers of this forum ... but we are ALL human, and none of us should be so arrogant as to think that subject to the right (or exactly wrong!) circumstances we would not fall victim to similar, or worse, accidents. Life is tenuous at best, we all strive to avoid accidents but they will occur nonetheless.

===============================

 

[Hippocampus]

Some of us here may well have more hours at sea than some professional mariners posting here and raising others hackles. And have accrued those hours on vessels not blessed by the expenditures for the vessel and maintenance permitted by governmental underwriting. Further not blessed by having highly trained and experienced crew. Even not having appropriate clothing for the cold and wet can diminish performance .
Some here have had to function in adverse conditions when the event was novel and they were not at their best either due to fatigue, illness, injury or residua from prior occurrences.
I believe the best conversations occur when the participants operate in an open thought system. Taking no preconceived bias into the conversation and realizing they can learn from the most unexpected person. This requires humility. Unfortunately it seems PS may lack this and function in a closed belief system. It’s unlikely that will change. I have gone head to head with him in the past to no avail. I stopped doing so as it’s fruitless. Rather place a jaundice eye at his posts and abstract what new factual information he may present. If you read this thread there’s some stuff in his posts (not much) from which you may benefit. It’s noteworthy he doest’t even acknowledge and validate the statements others when he repeats them. This might be helpful to those wondering what to do and what are the rules of the road.
When doing an activity of any sort I strive for “best practices “ or at least doing better than I’m doing at present within my limitations . I think all of us acknowledge the OPs event is unusual and he did well with no loss of life, serious injury or sinking. But I think most of us want to learn what we can do to avoid a similar occurrence in our travels. It’s this I’ve been focused on and hope others are as well. The experience of the professional mariner, SAR, LE individual has little or no relevance to the operator of the small boat recreational boat other then informing us about information that’s available from open sources. However it is helpful to be reminded of this information. So in this regards PS has been helpful.
Distilling this long thread. Both radar and AIS transceiver may have been helpful. An unobstructed visual scan may have been helpful. Having two up may have prevented this event. From the sailboat to the NT I transferred hydraulic wire cutters, a sawsall, various hacksaws, small plywood, various glues and sealants and rescue tape, both wood and soft foam plugs etc. it’s commendable the OP was able to clear the rig without further damage to his boat. Can you? What do you have access to on board to mitigate collision damage?
One can critique the behavior of the vessels involved but realize you can’t assume the other vessel will act in accordance to rules and regulations nor that they will react rationally. So a once of prevention is definitely better than a pound of cure. Personally I try to be hyper vigilant at night crossing outlets or entering inlets, and common tracks/channels.
The OP lost his rig. He had a very frightful event. Of course our heart goes out to him. But the only question in my mind is how I can’t prevent a similar occurrence happening to me.

 

[Davil1]

....................................................
when doing an activity of any sort i strive for “best practices “ or at least doing better than i’m doing at present within my limitations . i think all of us acknowledge the ops event is unusual and he did well with no loss of life, serious injury or sinking. But i think most of us want to learn what we can do to avoid a similar occurrence in our travels. It’s this i’ve been focused on and hope others are well. The experience of the professional mariner, sar, le individual has little or no relevance to the operator of the small boat recreational boat other then informing us about information that’s available from open sources. However it is helpful to be reminded of this information.
Distilling this long thread. Both radar and ais transceiver may have been helpful. An unobstructed visual scan may have been helpful. Having two up may have prevented this event. One can critique the behavior of the vessels involved but realize you can’t assume the other vessel will act in accordance to rules and regulations nor that they will react rationally. So a once of prevention is definitely better than a pound of cure. The op lost his rig. He had a very frightful event. Of course our heart goes out to him. But the only question in my mind is how i can’t prevent a similar occurrence happening to me.

[/b]




thanks

 

[SteveK]

how I can’t prevent a similar occurrence happening to me.

I know you meant can

Very good post BTW

 

[Mac G]

Some of us here may well have more hours at sea than some professional mariners posting here and raising others hackles. And have accrued those hours on vessels not blessed by the expenditures for the vessel and maintenance permitted by governmental underwriting. Further not blessed by having highly trained and experienced crew. Even not having appropriate clothing for the cold and wet can diminish performance .
Some here have had to function in adverse conditions when the event was novel and they were not at their best either due to fatigue, illness, injury or residua from prior occurrences.
I believe the best conversations occur when the participants operate in an open thought system. Taking no preconceived bias into the conversation and realizing they can learn from the most unexpected person.
UNQUOTE

Good point. Concur. Have only been here a short time and already recognize there are some very experienced circumnavigator and short-handed and open ocean offshore experinced types that have vast and varied experience and always welcome learning from them.
Back when I was growing up no one wore a bike helmet.
No one wore a ski helmet.
Would not do that now, but that was normal back then.

Along those lines, racing offshore sailors did not wear PFDs unless the vessel was in danger; and no one clipped-in unless in very extreme situations.
Again, am not suggesting that would necessarily be proper behavior now, but it was normal back then.

Can look back and shake my head at some of the sketchy situations I have been in, at night, on the bow, in a gale, with no PFD and no harness and did not think twice about it because it was normal back then and I felt completely comfortable operating in the moment.

Okay our species has evolved and advanced and I have wised up;
but someone's background will often dictate a comfort level generally with conditions that might otherwise freak-out someone who has never been there or was never allowed to behave that way due to more cautious or strick parents or skippers or working under strict regulations that would have prohibited such behavior.

Will not repeat much of the folly of my youth but am glad to have experienced all that and always welcome learning for those who have seen and done more than me.

 

[Don L]

I am just sitting around in a vacuum of information. Been gone from boat a few days and when we came this morning I told my wife "The boat is a mess inside and out, we should clean it." But then I said "Why waste time as the boat may be totaled by insurance tomorrow."

 

[Don L]

You know what the main difference between this thread here and on the other 2 forums it is on (besides from pXXXXXX)?

On this one many many many more are posting about radar and AIS than the other 2. This is a power boat forum and the other 2 are mostly sailboats. Sailboats don't have power underway while sailing at light and many tend to not use radar at night if conditions don't seem to require it. But of course a power boat underway have lots of power so they run all their toys.

So sailboats mostly use a visual watch and power boats use their radar. The FV says they had radar on and had a watch going, while we had a visual watch going looking in the exact direction the FV appeared from. Yet we still had a collision with only seconds of time to try to avoid.

 

[sunchaser]

So sailboats mostly use a visual watch and power boats use their radar. The FV says they had radar on and had a watch going, while we had a visual watch going looking in the exact direction the FV appeared from. Yet we still had a collision with only seconds of time to try to avoid.

Certainly, many sail boats do not have radar. By the same token, many power boats have neither radar nor AIS.

But, for day sailing lack of radar can get you by, maybe, until the fog or rain arrives. I know of many sail boats that have and use radar when sailing offshore and especially at night. Some in fact are around the world racers.

Budget, risk one is willing to assume and safety awareness provides the decision basis. In the PNW one of the larger populations of boats have sails that never go up. The iron genoa serves all sorts of purposes. One friend proudly claimed he cruised 2500 miles to and from AK without ever raising his sails.

Yes, this is a power boat forum. But Don, when adverse conditions arise there is nothing holding you back from motoring or starting a genset to provide power for radar and AIS. Again, your choice and accepting the outcome.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm interpreting a lot of the radar discussion as being part of the "what can I do to hopefully avoid this happening to me?" analysis. It's definitely true that different groups will come to different ideas first for that based on their experiences, tools typically at their disposal, etc. Most of my boating life has been without a lot of fancy electronics to help out, but events like this do affect my thoughts on what I'd consider necessary before doing certain things with the boat.

I don't see any indication here that you did anything wrong, but you still ended up in a terrible situation. I see that as a time to think "what could prevent this from happening again?" as it's hard to accept the idea of "this might just happen to me and I'm powerless to prevent it."

 

[Mac G]

"The boat is a mess inside and out, we should clean it." But then I said "Why waste time as the boat may be totaled by insurance tomorrow."

Don-
Things may not be as dire as you think.
Not sure what you have in your area, but up here there are a lot of boatyards with abandoned rigs lying around from folks that stopped paying their yard bills and they end up re-possessing everything to offset the yard bill.
And Bacon Sails in Annapolis has tons of used sails of all sizes.
Just get a new (used) rig for cheap and determine your J, I, P and E dimensions and see if you can outfit a new set of used sails from Bacon.
I live near the Defenders Marine outlet store and always go there to look for cheap rigging where they "mis-cut" a length for some mailorder customer and then sell it at a disccount; but maybe you can find a similar situation near you.
Or the same boatyard that re-possssed the rig may have spare running rigging kicking around too.
My point is you can probably cobble together a sail plan and rig again for less cost than you might think.
So go clean your boat!
Be thankful you are alive.

 

[Mac G]

was on a sailboat that lost her rig one time.
Was blowing hard in rough weather and an upper shroud parted from its chain plate.
The entire rig went over the side bending and tearing just above the gooseneck.
Was daylight, but still a PIA to deal with.
So I can relate to what happened to you.
Be thankful you and your wife were not seriously injured and that your boat's hull was not compromised.
Could have been worse.

 

[Don L]

I doubt the insurance company will try to sell me on a used rig or sails. I also doubt I would accept them doing so.

But I do have a spreadsheet for someone going that route in case somehow I end up with an insurance check and a boat. But I think what happens to the boat if totaled is the insurance co auctions off the boat. Would be a good deal for someone to get a used mast/boom, new standing and running rigging and new sails and someone willing to DIY some fiberglass work.

 

[rslifkin]

If the boat is totaled you can always ask insurance how much they'd want for you to keep it (if you wanted to keep and repair it). Or if it's right on the edge of fix vs total, availability of a used mast or something might be a factor in swaying the decision one way or the other.

 

[Baker]

Don-
Things may not be as dire as you think.
Not sure what you have in your area, but up here there are a lot of boatyards with abandoned rigs lying around from folks that stopped paying their yard bills and they end up re-possessing everything to offset the yard bill.
And Bacon Sails in Annapolis has tons of used sails of all sizes.
Just get a new (used) rig for cheap and determine your J, I, P and E dimensions and see if you can outfit a new set of used sails from Bacon.
I live near the Defenders Marine outlet store and always go there to look for cheap rigging where they "mis-cut" a length for some mailorder customer and then sell it at a disccount; but maybe you can find a similar situation near you.
Or the same boatyard that re-possssed the rig may have spare running rigging kicking around too.
My point is you can probably cobble together a sail plan and rig again for less cost than you might think.
So go clean your boat!
Be thankful you are alive.

I would say wait to see if insurance will total it. If they do, buy it back and THEN do what is suggested above!!!

 

[Baker]

As for AIS and radar, I would not consider them “toys”. They are tools that can be used to mitigate risk. If you have a halfway decent battery bank and a means to charge it, I would say it would be worth using these two tools at night. I don’t think it has anything to do with powerboat versus sailboat….at least not at the basic level. But I do think sail boaters get pretty wrapped around the axle about using battery power and not burning fuel. IOW, fuel burned to charge the batteries whether it be with the engine or with a generator. I know sailors who brag about only have 120 hours on a generator that is over ten years old. It is that mentality that could be a causal factor in incidents like this.

 

[Baker]

One other thing after actually reading this entire thread. Nobody mentioned a false horizon. It is very difficult to determine where the horizon is at night on a boat. You may think you have “scanned the horizon” when in fact you were looking in the wrong “zone”. I have seen cruise ships come out of the sky….thinking I was looking at the horizon when in fact I was looking well under the horizon which makes it look like the cruise ship is in the sky. Or stars that look like boats because I was scanning well above the actual horizon. Just a thought as it really wasn’t mentioned in the exhausting thread.

 

[Hippocampus]

Currently both wind generators and solar are commonly placed on long term cruising sailboats. Similarly very few don’t have a genset. Many have yet to convert to LiFePO4 but large house banks are very common. We had 2 D400s and two house size panels as well as some soft panels used when at rest. We had a northern lights on the last but previously had various brands of high rpm generators.
I’ve done innumerable Salty Dawg (mid Atlantic-mid eastern Caribbean) rallies. Virtually all boats involved ,which are all sailboats, were similarly equipped. Some skipped the wind generators. Some had hydro generators but all had radar/AIS. I think (but don’t know) for the Caribbean 1500 it’s required. Also VHF was required and some form of communication beyond that with Satphone,or single side band or both. SSB being quite helpful to listen and speak to weather router and for social functions.
At present regardless of vessel I think you incur additional risk if traveling in low vision situations without radar and AIS. They have saved our bacon multiple times. That includes decades on sail and only a few years on power. Similarly following the rule (both on power and sail) to periodically take an unobstructed 360 visual scan as part of the watch routine. Among things we’ve picked up have been a floating car (white shrink wrap showing on roof and hood) in the saragasso sea, several whales sleeping near shore (especially around race point), bunch of telephone poles wired together in the gulf of Maine, abandoned fishing gear and many trees in all different places. I don’t place full trust in any modality. Simple chop can obscure things on radar. Many boats don’t show on AIS. Some times you only appreciate danger because the waves change as they pass over a near surface but sunken object. Ideally you want one modality to raise suspicion and to confirm with another. The more modalities you have available the more likely you will appreciate danger. I continue to believe that collision risks are much higher near shore and coastal than for offshore and ocean. I continue to believe given that that traveling in any boat (sail or power) in low vision (night, heavy rain, fog, extreme light pollution etc.) not making use of all available modalities incurs needless risk.
For awhile owned a PSC34 which we used to “commute “ Plymouth Ma to SW harbor Maine. This was before current low draw radar and the existence of AIS. No genset nor solar nor wind generators. Modest house bank. Still at night the radar went on every ten minutes ((15 minutes when in the middle of gulf of Maine). Radar was continually on leaving and at landfall. SOC was monitored and engine engaged if necessary.
I think the thing to avoid is complacency. Not playing the what ifs. You’ve done the transit a thousand times with no problems. You’re tired or cold or wet so distracted by the need for comfort. You’ve been a sailor for years and years without emergencies.

That’s why a rigidly adhered to watch routine is mandatory. It includes checking your propulsion (sails or engine), checking your position and your relationship to issues of potential danger (depth, rocks, shoreline, other vessels etc.). Doing a full unobstructed visual scan. Listening and even smelling ( we missed a fish farm that was in disarray from the stench). And using all the aids available (that includes radar/AIS). If you’re not willing to execute a rigidly applied watch routine perhaps you shouldn’t be out there. sh-t happens and even to the most vigilant operator. But if you don’t keep a good watch it’s on you. Sorry to be harsh.
I’m interested in what folks think are the components of a good watch routine and how I can improve my routine.

 

[Bmarler]

Long thread now for sure. Sailing at night was a pretty rare occurrence for me, but certainly not unheard of. I always did it with electronics off, save the plotter on low brightness. I relied on my eyes and ears. There’s a big difference between being in a pilothouse under power and being behind the dodger under sail. I felt totally connected to my surroundings under sail, and had high confidence in my watch ability. I doubt I would have done anything different had I been in dons situation. There were many safety procedures in place that some folks would skip. Being clipped in behind the dodger for instance. I know some that would not clip in unless going out on deck.
Personally, I don’t think I’d use a short tether in the cockpit if it hampered my ability to get to the helm and pilot controls. Those few seconds may have made a difference, but who knows?

 

[Don L]

things are very clear from behind a computer