Converting lighting to LED

[rslifkin]

The major big box hardware stores sell 120V LED tubes that are direct replacements for fluorescent tubes -- no rewiring at all, just take the old tubes out and put the new ones in.


On Fintry, the only incandescents on the boat are the running lights. A single vertical filament is needed to get the cutoffs required at the edge of the color sectors, so replacing the bulbs would probably require replacing the fixtures to meet USCG requirements.


Jim

For the nav lights, it depends on what the existing fixtures are. Some have LED retrofits available that are tested to still meet the cutoff and brightness requirements, others don't. But good LED fixtures aren't hard to find anyway.

 

[wkearney99]

The major big box hardware stores sell 120V LED tubes that are direct replacements for fluorescent tubes -- no rewiring at all, just take the old tubes out and put the new ones in.

As I recall those were a lot more expensive, and you're still stuck with needing the ballast, which is also a failure item. If the ballast later fails you're going to have to put another ballast back into the fixture as the tubes will not work without it. And you'll be cutting wires to do that.

That and the ballast itself wastes wattage.

Kinda hard to justify vs snipping/splicing one wire. Especially not for the half-dozen fixtures likely in a boat. I can definitely see where dealing with a whole building's worth of fixtures would be a problem, as I wouldn't assume it requires an electrician to replace bulbs (vs needing one to cut wires for a commercial setting). That and the ballasts on those are often the twist-out socketed kind, not the wired-in.

 

[rslifkin]

For the drop-in LED tubes, there are ballast and non-ballast replacements. The ones in my salon overheads are the ballast type and compared to the rating of the LED tubes, they draw about 180% of what they should due to the old ballasts. At some point I'll swap them to non-ballast tubes and remove the ballasts. Then I just have to decide whether I keep them as 120v (running off the inverter) or if I switch them to 12v.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

For the nav lights, it depends on what the existing fixtures are. Some have LED retrofits available that are tested to still meet the cutoff and brightness requirements, others don't. But good LED fixtures aren't hard to find anyway.

What exactly makes LED retrofits meet or fail to meet Coast Guard requirements?

 

[slowgoesit]

What exactly makes LED retrofits meet or fail to meet Coast Guard requirements?

USCG approved lights are just that, approved. Non-USCG may very well meet the USCG requirements, but if you have a problem, and your lights were never specifically approved by the USCG, there may be grounds for shifting blame toward you . . . Most manufacturers of LED replacement bulbs don't want to go through the long/drawn out, and probably expensive process of getting USCG approval for a probably small market return.

 

[rslifkin]

What exactly makes LED retrofits meet or fail to meet Coast Guard requirements?

Depending on brightness, how the LEDs behave behind a color lens on the light fixture and their light output pattern compared to the original bulb, the fixture may not produce the correct cutoff angles or the correct brightness with an LED bulb shoved in it. So while it'll put out light, it's not necessarily putting out what it was designed to.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Makes sense. Thanks guys. Point is, you've got to follow the rules to insulate yourself from liability problems. Definitely the right move.

 

[ranger58sb]

Depending on brightness, how the LEDs behave behind a color lens on the light fixture and their light output pattern compared to the original bulb, the fixture may not produce the correct cutoff angles or the correct brightness with an LED bulb shoved in it. So while it'll put out light, it's not necessarily putting out what it was designed to.

And marinebeam sells LEDs specifically designed for nav lights. Red for behind red lens, green for behind green lens, etc.

They also have some info to help match LED replacement "bulbs" to specific nav light makes/models (for example, ours are a specific Aqua Signal model).

-Chris

 

[wkearney99]

USCG approved lights are just that, approved. Non-USCG may very well meet the USCG requirements, but if you have a problem, and your lights were never specifically approved by the USCG, there may be grounds for shifting blame toward you . . . Most manufacturers of LED replacement bulbs don't want to go through the long/drawn out, and probably expensive process of getting USCG approval for a probably small market return.

Are there ANY examples of situations where liability was incurred because of using other light elements in the fixtures? Any at all?

I'm all for using qualified components, don't get me wrong, but the whole spectre of maybe is often used to kill discussions.

 

[hollywood8118]

Are there ANY examples of situations where liability was incurred because of using other light elements in the fixtures? Any at all?

I'm all for using qualified components, don't get me wrong, but the whole spectre of maybe is often used to kill discussions.

I can just imagine the attorney of a boater that crossed another boater who had the right away with the argument " the defendant's bright,. not coast guard approved LED running lights temporarily caused my client to be blinded and he turned in front of the defendant".





HOLLYWOOD

 

[wkearney99]

Yeah, well, imagination gins up all kinds of scenarios... that never happen.

I'm interested in knowing if deviating from USCG bulbs has EVER been cited in a report involving accident/liability. Not just maybes.

 

[rslifkin]

I don't know if incorrect bulbs would be likely to lead to a liability problem. But in my mind, unless the bulbs have been tested and confirmed to work correctly in a given light (like the ones Ranger42c mentioned are available for some lights), I wouldn't use them. Not because of liability, but because I wouldn't be sure the light is actually as visible as I expect it to be.

 

[Comodave]

“CG approved” lights are not approved by the CG but are certified by independent agencies like UL that the light meets the CG requirements. The approval is only good with the bulb that was tested in the light fixture at the time of the test. It is with the particular bulb not a retrofit LED. If it was an incandescent bulb the light is emitted by a single filament. LEDs are an array that emits light from more than 1 single element. The light fixture is designed to cut off the light at a specified angle when the light comes from a single element not an array. So the LED may change the cutoff angle of the light fixture. If you are in a nighttime collision and there is significant property loss or injury the insurance companies will assign an investigator. The investigator will check that the nav lights were working and were an approved light. I love LED nav lights and every boat I have owned in the last 20 years has ended up with them, but I replace the entire nav light and never just put in an LED. When an LED company says you can put in a retrofit LED, I would ask them to put in writhing that the light will still meet the certification it had originally. How many do you think will do that?

 

[slowgoesit]

Are there ANY examples of situations where liability was incurred because of using other light elements in the fixtures? Any at all?

I'm all for using qualified components, don't get me wrong, but the whole spectre of maybe is often used to kill discussions.

There may be, then again, there may not be. Not being a Maritime attorney, I can't answer that question. I was merely trying to answer a member's question. Please note that I stated "There MAY be grounds . . . . "

 

[old-School]

I simply purchased and installed LED equivalent. Most marine supply centers will be able to provide them. Take the bulb you intend to replace with you.
You will be surprised at the number and varied types of bulbs.
In some cases a base adapter is used and the lighting element is inserted into the base.
The results should be gratifying and power saving.

 

[ssobol]

... If it was an incandescent bulb the light is emitted by a single filament. LEDs are an array that emits light from more than 1 single element. The light fixture is designed to cut off the light at a specified angle when the light comes from a single element not an array. So the LED may change the cutoff angle of the light fixture. ...

Not all incandescent bulbs are single filament. Also a single filament can be looped or bent inside the bulb to increase its length and area.

Not all LED bulbs are arrays. There are single chip LED "bulbs".

No incandescent bulb is a point light source.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I have incandescent nav lights and my stern light is out. I found this at MarineBeam.com and while you'd figure it is GC approved, that language does not appear in the description or anywhere on the product page. In fact, they advertise that "To meet the agressive price objectives, while maintaining the quality, we sourced a high quality OEM-style navigation light, and then added our own constant-current 12-LED festoon bulb." How is that any different than me replacing the burned out incandescent with an LED festoon "bulb?"

 

[Bacchus]

Why not just buy an approved LED stern light. Didn't look extensively but here's one for $20 Is it worth epeculating or having any doubts?
https://www.online-led-store.com/chrome-plated-side-mount-marine-navigation-stern-lamp-cazledsil0005
Or another approved for a little more$
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/hell...-stern-navigation-light--598433?recordNum=133

Also I see little need to replace incandescent Nav light with LED unless the fixture is shot and needs replacement.
Anchor light no question but Nav light on while running and Alt charging.

 

[HTurner]

I have incandescent nav lights and my stern light is out. I found this at MarineBeam.com and while you'd figure it is GC approved, that language does not appear in the description or anywhere on the product page. In fact, they advertise that "To meet the agressive price objectives, while maintaining the quality, we sourced a high quality OEM-style navigation light, and then added our own constant-current 12-LED festoon bulb." How is that any different than me replacing the burned out incandescent with an LED festoon "bulb?"

If it is an approved light it will be stamped as such. When I replaced one of my lights I even got a little certificate with it stating is approved and listed the governing bodies along with USCG.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Oh it's not the cost, it's the match. A direct replacement would be ideal so that the screw holes and the surrounding sun fade match up. That Hella unit from West Marine looks darn close. Thanks Don.

 

[rslifkin]

Oh it's not the cost, it's the match. A direct replacement would be ideal so that the screw holes and the surrounding sun fade match up. That Hella unit from West Marine looks darn close. Thanks Don.

Worst case, a thin piece of starboard works as an adapter plate. When I replaced my nav lights a few years ago with the Hella NaviLED Pro units for the side and stern lights I did that. Stern light didn't need a plate as it was bigger than the old one, but the new side lights in the deck mount adapters didn't match up to the old stuff well so I put them on 1/4 inch starboard plates sealed to the underlying deck with 4000UV.

 

[Bacchus]

Oh it's not the cost, it's the match. A direct replacement would be ideal so that the screw holes and the surrounding sun fade match up. That Hella unit from West Marine looks darn close. Thanks Don.

I understand but just get it close to same footprint and buff out the area before installing and you will never see it. Holes nice but not necessary if old are covered & plugged.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Oops, wrong thread!

 

[Caballero II]

I did a search for this topic but came back empty. Anyone have any experience with LED conversions or additions?

I am so far quite happy with Marine Beam (no affiliation). They have worked very well, much better than the last time I tried to upgrade to interior LED's off the internet which didn't even really fit the sockets. That was 5-7 years ago. The have warm light replacements, I think about 3,000 Kelvin or maybe a little less. Quite nice.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I am so far quite happy with Marine Beam

Do your Marine Beam fixtures have USCG approvals?

 

[Caballero II]

Do your Marine Beam fixtures have USCG approvals?

The Ventura Harbor Boatyard replaced my masthead and port and starboard running lights with LED lights some 5 or 6 years ago and, off hand, I don't know what brand they are. They are nice and robust, and I do assume they are USCG approved.

My recent project has to do with replacing all the interior incandescent lamps with MarineBeam LED's, and I am quite happy with them. I don't think they are required to have anything to do with USCG approvals.

 

[Comodave]

Not all incandescent bulbs are single filament. Also a single filament can be looped or bent inside the bulb to increase its length and area.

Not all LED bulbs are arrays. There are single chip LED "bulbs".

No incandescent bulb is a point light source.

But if the incandescent bulb does have a bent or looped element in it and it was tested and certified to meet the standards then they are ok. My point was that if you replace a bulb in a certified light with a different bulb, whether it is LED or incandescent, you may not have a certified nav light anymore. Does it work, maybe, but it may not meet the certification standard. Personally I want my nav lights to be legal. Others may not care but that is their choice.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

My recent project has to do with replacing all the interior incandescent lamps with MarineBeam LED's, and I am quite happy with them. I don't think they are required to have anything to do with USCG approvals.

Roger that. Thanks Caballero.