Coolant - scam?

[Xsbank]

I am poised to replace the coolant in my boat and while researching different products (not Evans, I have about 18 gallons to replace!) I read all the labels and read all the reviews but there seems to be a lot of hooey out there. For example, Prestone vs Prestone Long Life or Diesel/heavy duty stuff, all seems to have the same composition when you read the MDS sheets but all have different claims (and prices). Another example is Dex-Cool for GM engines - more expensive than the regular stuff, but some of the Prestones state "safe for all vehicles" while also selling Dex-whosis.

So wtf? I am going to buy the cheapest low silicate coolant I can find that comes with a 'sheet' and add the corrosion inhibitors as per the test strips and to hell with the claptrap the brand names sell. What a scam. WallyWorld, here I come.

 

[psneeld]

I am poised to replace the coolant in my boat and while researching different products (not Evans, I have about 18 gallons to replace!) I read all the labels and read all the reviews but there seems to be a lot of hooey out there. For example, Prestone vs Prestone Long Life or Diesel/heavy duty stuff, all seems to have the same composition when you read the MDS sheets but all have different claims (and prices). Another example is Dex-Cool for GM engines - more expensive than the regular stuff, but some of the Prestones state "safe for all vehicles" while also selling Dex-whosis.

So wtf? I am going to buy the cheapest low silicate coolant I can find that comes with a 'sheet' and add the corrosion inhibitors as per the test strips and to hell with the claptrap the brand names sell. What a scam. WallyWorld, here I come.

People/companies have done oil testing and the Wally World oil has beaten 1/2 the pack on several tests for overall performance.

No matter what you buy nowadays, it pays to be an educated consumer.

 

[eseyoung]

I may take a beating on this but you are right. Now that you figured this out brace yourself for the realization that all oil is more or less equal too

 

[boatpoker]

Took a Caterpillar diesel class (circa 1998)put on by Caterpillar.They convinced me that extended life coolant was the way to go ... been using it ever since.

 

[Ski in NC]

What engines do you have? What color is the coolant in there now? Any idea of brand/formulation?

edit- questions posed to the OP.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. X. There is a small discussion of anti-freeze on another ongoing thread but damned if I can remember which one....

 

[ronlord]

Took a Caterpillar diesel class (circa 1998)put on by Caterpillar.They convinced me that extended life coolant was the way to go ... been using it ever since.

Same here. Switched to the CAT ELC rated coolant 8 years ago. No need for periodic testing or charging. Just flush and replace every 5 years. We are running a CAT 3116, so your mileage may vary.

 

[psneeld]

Without a doubt I run the good stuff in my Ford 7.3 powerstroke...of course after hearing the horror stories from the early years of them...but the Lehman was in service a long time ago with long service life LONG before extended life coolants...most diesels we know today have been designed completely different...so yes why take a chance.

But I have to say that I would rather spend my money on other maintenance issues and the best oil if there is one, with frequent changes rather than on a coolant that is really doing nothing fancy. If it's high in silicates as some extended life coolants can be, it is only accelerating the demise of the coolant pump bearings.

 

[johnma]

I don't know much about anti-freeze but Yanmar is very specific about what to use and what not to use. The wrong anti-freeze can wreck the engine.
I can speak about oil. I am in the hydraulic industry and the proper fluid is mandatory. The chief lubrication engineer at Bethlehem Steel (now defunct) once told me that all multi viscosity oils (both engine and hydraulic) will strip back to a straight weight at some time during their life. A good name brand oil can take years. A cheap no name oil will strip back in a matter of hour or days. There is no way of telling what it will strip back to. A 10W40 can strip to a 10 weight or 40 weight or anywhere in between.

Our company has 13 dynamometers. many years ago an oil salesman came in to our purchasing department and said he could save us a lot of money on oil. well he did....but all of the transmissions we tested with his oil failed on the dyno. 100% failures. I saw this with my own eyes. Don't even get me started on filters quality.

John
MS390

 

[mbevins]

I don't know much about anti-freeze but Yanmar is very specific about what to use and what not to use. The wrong anti-freeze can wreck the engine.
I can speak about oil. I am in the hydraulic industry and the proper fluid is mandatory. The chief lubrication engineer at Bethlehem Steel (now defunct) once told me that all multi viscosity oils (both engine and hydraulic) will strip back to a straight weight at some time during their life. A good name brand oil can take years. A cheap no name oil will strip back in a matter of hour or days. There is no way of telling what it will strip back to. A 10W40 can strip to a 10 weight or 40 weight or anywhere in between.

Our company has 13 dynamometers. many years ago an oil salesman came in to our purchasing department and said he could save us a lot of money on oil. well he did....but all of the transmissions we tested with his oil failed on the dyno. 100% failures. I saw this with my own eyes. Don't even get me started on filters quality.

John
MS390

Try and explain that to the client.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Trawler

 

[Xsbank]

Ski, Cummins 6CTA8.3 M1

It's green(ish) and because I am a recently new owner and I am hauling in a month, so can then pull the plug in the keel, I am changing it.

I won't know exactly until I measure it but estimating by the size of the keel, I think 18 gallons is close to its volume. I am intrigued by Evans but their high price combined with different products all sounding the same but with different prices, I think he has a good idea but he is selling like snake oil.

 

[Xsbank]

Another tip - I have found that buying cheap oil is a good thing if the specs on the can meet the manufacturer's requirements and house brands are usually produced by brand names. Example, Crappy Tire (famous Canadian store) sells "Certified" 10-40 diesel for about $20 cheaper than Rotella. The can meets the same specs as the Rotella, if you go to the MDS sheets which they have to publish, (you can find them in Customer Service) the oil is made by Shell! If you think about it, there are only so many refineries so the oil has to be the same. If the specs are the same, the additive package has to be the same. Ergo bingo, same stuff!

 

[cafesport]

I am poised to replace the coolant in my boat and while researching different products (not Evans, I have about 18 gallons to replace!) I read all the labels and read all the reviews but there seems to be a lot of hooey out there. For example, Prestone vs Prestone Long Life or Diesel/heavy duty stuff, all seems to have the same composition when you read the MDS sheets but all have different claims (and prices). Another example is Dex-Cool for GM engines - more expensive than the regular stuff, but some of the Prestones state "safe for all vehicles" while also selling Dex-whosis. So wtf? I am going to buy the cheapest low silicate coolant I can find that comes with a 'sheet' and add the corrosion inhibitors as per the test strips and to hell with the claptrap the brand names sell. What a scam. WallyWorld, here I come.

Basically there are 3 types of coolant. Only two should be used in marine diesels and they aren't the cheapest ones. Go figure.
Astm d3306 standard automotive and cheapest.
Astm d6210 hd diesel coolant. No need for sca's just use premix 50/50.
Dexcool is an organic acid and does not mix with glycol so if your engine uses it you need to stick with it.

Via iPad using Trawler

 

[O C Diver]

Ski, Cummins 6CTA8.3 M1

It's green(ish) and because I am a recently new owner and I am hauling in a month, so can then pull the plug in the keel, I am changing it.

I won't know exactly until I measure it but estimating by the size of the keel, I think 18 gallons is close to its volume. I am intrigued by Evans but their high price combined with different products all sounding the same but with different prices, I think he has a good idea but he is selling like snake oil.

My Cummins 6CT 300 heat exchanged holds right at 8 gallons. Remember there is a filter with an additive in it for the cooling system that is located next to the fuel filter. This should also be changed when doing the coolant.

Regardless of what coolant you choose, dilute it with distilled water (mineral free) available at most super markets or walmart for about a dollar a gallon. Distilled water virtually eliminates mineral deposits in the engine and heat exchanger.

Regarding oil, my preference is Rotella T (Shell oil). At walmart it's $13 a gallon. Not sure how much cheaper there house brand is. As expensive as a rebuild is, I'll stick with a proven winner. My dodge pickup with the cummins diesel has 355K miles on it now and still doesn't use any oil!

Ted

 

[MC Escher]

I developed a fondness for the "Be Cool" product line when I used to build engines for my various toys. It's good stuff too...

However, mixing coolant types can be bad, depending on what you mix.

If I were DRIVING somewhere I wouldn't worry about it, because push comes to shove, you can get what you need overnighted to you just about anywhere, if you even need to in the first place.

On the water? Especially in places that might not be part of the vast shopping mall that is the USA...?

I think I would want the most commercially available product I could get, which means traditional "Green" anti-freeze.


That's just a thought...

 

[rwidman]

Volvo calls for a specific coolant and of course they are willing to sell it for $24 per gallon. It's to be mixed with distilled water ($1) per gallon so that's $12.50 per gallon altogether.

Many will argue that any coolant from the auto parts store or Walmart will do and perhaps this is the case, but Volvo is concerned about internal corrosion and considering the cost of the engine, using their coolant seems cheap insurance.

That said, they have introduced a new coolant. It's based on a different chemical (look it up if you want to) and in theory is better than the original. The problem is, they are incompatible so if you've been using the original (green), they strongly caution you not to switch to the newer (yellow) coolant. You can never remove all traces of the old and mixing the two will cause problems.

So - I continue using what was in the engine in the first place and what has been used over its history. For me, the cost is insignificant compared to other costs of owning the boat.

 

[rwidman]

Another tip - I have found that buying cheap oil is a good thing if the specs on the can meet the manufacturer's requirements and house brands are usually produced by brand names. Example, Crappy Tire (famous Canadian store) sells "Certified" 10-40 diesel for about $20 cheaper than Rotella. The can meets the same specs as the Rotella, if you go to the MDS sheets which they have to publish, (you can find them in Customer Service) the oil is made by Shell! If you think about it, there are only so many refineries so the oil has to be the same. If the specs are the same, the additive package has to be the same. Ergo bingo, same stuff!

First, Rotella is $13 per gallon at Walmart so it's hard to imagine a store selling anything for $20 less. They would be paying me $7 per gallon to carry it out of the store.

Second, Just because the oil is made by Shell doesn't mean it's the same as Rotella in a different package. It could be a lesser quality oil and it could have different additives. Go to Shell and tell them you want 100,000 gallons of oil in your own packaging and you can tell them the specs you want. Same with batteries or anything else.

"Cheaping out" on oil and antifreeze doesn't seem to be worth the risk. Not knowing any better, I figure a rebuild or replacement for my engine would be $25K, more or less. Whatever the cost, I would rather invest the few dollars more that quality fluids cost.

 

[psneeld]

Cheaping out is using a substandard product...not all products that aren't "top shelf" are necessarily substandard. People in the know, like many manufacturers say (the law does too) if you are using a certified engine oil they will still honor warranties. Independent oil testing has show time and again that some brands such as Walmart, Advance Auto, Pep Boys etc that meet the same certification as the big names are just as good if not better than some of the big names for certain applications (due to content)....

Also as the name of the thread implies...Coolant Scam...many coolants are perfectly suitable for many reasons for many engines....all you need to know is what the ingredients are to make sure you get what you need.

As far as the long life Organo based antifreeze (OAT), I have read where mixing them is not the end of the world as some will have you believe...it just negates the properties of the OAT and reverts you back to whatever you mixed it with. Some believe that yearly flushing of non-long life antifreeze that is suitable for your engine may be a better concept than long life use anyhow.

So spend your money wisely...that doesn't ALWAY mean top shelf. Then again if you aren't into independent research, there are always the standby names that others have used and enjoyed for years with known good service.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I think the "long life" has very significant advantages if engine coolant comes in contact w aluminum parts of the engine. I use LL on on all my engines w alu parts but just use the old green stuff on my Mitsubishi that has no aluminum contact w the AF.

John (johnma),
Re the "stripping back" as you put it I use straight 30W and 40W in my boat diesel. Use it for other reasons also. And change my Dino car oil often. Just bought a new car and it calls for synthetic 5W-30 oil and I think 6000 mi intervals. Intend to do as the manufacturer recommends. But I don't like the prospect of my Dino 10W30 "stripping back" to 10 weight oil. I do, however use Castrol and Mobile 1.

 

[Xsbank]

WesK, I buy oil in 20 litre pails. 5 US gallons.

 

[BandB]

I don't know much about anti-freezes or oils and really don't plan on getting the education or the test equipment nor accumulating the data necessary. What I do is I rely on the manufacturer of my engine and their recommendations. Does that cost me more? Perhaps, but more likely it saves me in the long run. Yes, I might find a cheaper alternative that worked as well, but it might not. Regardless I know also I'm going to be covered under warranty. I will choose somewhere else to save money. To me it's safety first.

Years ago I saw an outboard motor mechanic remove a sparkplug and tell the owner what motor oil he'd been using to cause his problems, just from the feel. Then I saw him do a side by side demonstration. As someone totally non-mechanical I was amazed but it also made it clear to me that very similar products can be very different.

 

[Tom.B]

I use Fleet Charge from the auto parts store.

 

[Capthead]

One of the problems with antifreeze is it changes PH over time and becomes an acid. This starts electrolysis and in time eats the engine from the inside. This is the main reason for changing coolant. You can test your coolant with a VOM and readings above .4 mv are eating away metal parts.

I buy the cheapest green at wally world and change frequently. Never use Dexcool. I worked at a GM dealership when it came out. We had blown engines because it gelled and clogged cooling passages. The dealership flushed the orange stuff and replaced it with green.

 

[LarryM]

I am poised to replace the coolant in my boat and while researching different products (not Evans, I have about 18 gallons to replace!) I read all the labels and read all the reviews but there seems to be a lot of hooey out there. For example, Prestone vs Prestone Long Life or Diesel/heavy duty stuff, all seems to have the same composition when you read the MDS sheets but all have different claims (and prices). Another example is Dex-Cool for GM engines - more expensive than the regular stuff, but some of the Prestones state "safe for all vehicles" while also selling Dex-whosis.

So wtf? I am going to buy the cheapest low silicate coolant I can find that comes with a 'sheet' and add the corrosion inhibitors as per the test strips and to hell with the claptrap the brand names sell. What a scam. WallyWorld, here I come.

The proper coolant for any diesel engine is to a large degree dependent upon the design of the engine. If your engine has wet-sleeve cylinder liners, you need to know about this, although all diesels are susceptible to varying degrees.

The problem is called Cylinder Liner Cavitation and the best explanation I have found is in the following article written by Ed Eaton at Amalgamated Laboratories, Inc.:

"One of the most common and costly results of improper cooling system maintenance is the perforation of wet-sleeve cylinder liners. The perforation is caused by repetitive pitting of the liner resulting from liner vibration. As the fuel inside ignites, the liner vibrates within the block. The outside wall of the liner actually moves away from the coolant causing a near vacuum for an instant. This low-pressure causes the surrounding coolant to boil, forming tiny bubbles. The liner then returns to its position with extremely high velocity, pressing against the bubbles with a violent force. The bubbles implode (collapse) against the liner wall surface at pressures up to 60,000 PSI. The collapse of these bubbles blasts small holes in the steel liner. This pitting process will repeat, digging tiny tunnels through the liner. This will eventually perforate the wall allowing coolant to enter the combustion side of the cylinder."

"Correctly formulated coolant contains either nitrite or a combination of nitrite and molybdate. They will form a thin protective oxide film on the coolant side of the liner wall. This oxide film, which is formed by reaction of the nitrite with the liner wall, acts as a protective barrier to prevent corrosion and cavitation from occurring. In a properly protected system, the imploding bubbles attack the protective film. The film quickly heals over the liner by drawing nitrite from the coolant. In an improperly protected system, the bare metal surface area is immediately exposed to cavitation forming a corroded pit in the metal."

In light of the above, I believe the safest course of action is to simply follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

I am all about saving money where possible, but IMHO, the price of coolant is really fly stuff compared to the price of an overhaul or reduced engine life.

Good luck!

Larry
m/v Boomarang

 

[Nomad Willy]

Larry and Capthead,
Very excellent posts indeed. I'd forgotten about the PH in the coolant. And none of us should be the guy driving all over town to find the cheapest gas burning more than saving at the pump. Even my grandmother said "oil's cheap".

 

[RickB]

One of the problems with antifreeze is it changes PH over time and becomes an acid. This starts electrolysis and in time eats the engine from the inside. This is the main reason for changing coolant. You can test your coolant with a VOM and readings above .4 mv are eating away metal parts.

You might want to take a look again at that voltage figure.

And the best way to check coolant pH is with a pH pen or test strips. Before doing that though, it helps to know what the acceptable range might be.

 

[Capthead]

Thanks RickB. It should be .07 and above if you use the 20VDC scale.

I usually change over .05

Antifreeze coolant Checking with a Multimeter (updated) - YouTube

 

[dannc]

Be careful with coolant color.

The 7.3L diesel in my truck and the itty bitty Yanmar diesel in my JD tractor require a diesel rated coolant. The coolant is good for 5 years when the engine is new and then three years there after. Well, the coolant was still good after five/three years but I change it per the manual.

The 7.3L coolant is Gold and the JD coolant is green. When it was time to change the coolant in the truck I used JD coolant since I could use it in the tractor. The coolant chemistry is the same, though the color is different. You really have to read the label and not go by the coolant color.

I wanted to use an ELC coolant in the truck but I could not find it locally so I just used the JD coolant since it works in both truck and tractor.

The 7.3 Liter truck engine I have does NOT have a liner but it can still have problems with cavitation hence the engine needs a coolant with the correct chemistry to prevent the problem.

Later,
Dan

 

[psneeld]

Prestone's product line (other than non-tox antifreeze) Has the words in the titles "Long Life", "Heavy Duty" or "Prime" (premium long life). I didn't see any labeled "for cheapskates that only think they need cheapo, probably bad for your engine green stuff"....

So for anyone thinking they are getting something "special" in their anti-freeze really ought to read the MSDS to see what they are or are not getting. It might be the case that all of the stuff available to you now might protect certain components just as well as the next stuff.

Sure using the manufacturers brand is great and easy and not necessarily very expensive...but over the life of a diesel it COULD be significant in a few cases and realistically...you can't always get what you asked for....

But you bet...in my Ford Powerstroke with a widely know issue with cavitation...I switched to OAT antifreeze as soon as I researched the available options and have passed the magic 150,000 miles issue a long way back. But a lot of us are running ancient iron in our boats and even the Virginia Guru said plain old, cheapo green is perectly fine. Yet again you have to be smart enough to know if they retool coolant pumps that like something else...ya gotta stay up with your own maintenance issues...I would hope pointing that out is even too remedial for most here, it more for the "but... but ...what if types".

 

[jleonard]

Never use Dexcool. I worked at a GM dealership when it came out. We had blown engines because it gelled and clogged cooling passages. The dealership flushed the orange stuff and replaced it with green.

I hear you on this. My son owns an auto repair shop and he made tons of $$ by fixing overheated engines that used Dexcool.