Crossing a bar

[Portage_Bay]

Mvweebles, you've addressed risk assessment in an excellent way. Unfortunately on forums we all tend to be a bit blunt and preachy. I'm as guilty as anyone.

An additional thought on risk. Certain risk of life is never worth it. Below that level of risk lies a broad spectrum. From crossing on a well found boat with a small experienced crew to a less capable boat with inexperienced family and friends aboard where comfort as well as safety needs to be considered. If I frighten them, even though I know it's low risk, they may not go out with me again. Where's the joy in owning a boat if I let that happen?

Drifting off topic a tiny bit. Another one that can scare the willies outta me from experience is Willapa Bay. Local knowledge is very important, recent local knowledge because the bar is not accurately charted and changes with every high wind event.

 

[schrater]

I have really appreciated this thread. It contains a lot of good advice to help those of us who are less experienced learn from those who have been around the block.

But a word to the old salts: Please stop treading all over those of us wanting to learn with your “you just have to try it” and “if you just had experience you’d be good at it” and “a skilled mariner doesn’t have to worry about those rules of thumb”. By definition, those of us asking the questions are not “experts”, that’s why we’re asking. So rules of thumb do help. And ideal windows do help us get started and gain experience. Of course once we get several crossings under our belts we’ll learn to expand our options, but frankly we’d be idiots to just go out blindly and learn everything the hard way. We get it, you know a lot. But you were a newbie too once upon a time, so how about talking to your audience with that in mind? Thank you.

 

[T210DRVR]

I would like to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread. I’ve learned a lot including more respect for bar crossings.

Those guys at Depot Bay have some big cajones. I don’t think I ever want to enter a bar with that little room to maneuver and open exposure to the ocean swells.

 

[mvweebles]

I have really appreciated this thread. It contains a lot of good advice to help those of us who are less experienced learn from those who have been around the block.

But a word to the old salts: Please stop treading all over those of us wanting to learn with your “you just have to try it” and “if you just had experience you’d be good at it” and “a skilled mariner doesn’t have to worry about those rules of thumb”. By definition, those of us asking the questions are not “experts”, that’s why we’re asking. So rules of thumb do help. And ideal windows do help us get started and gain experience. Of course once we get several crossings under our belts we’ll learn to expand our options, but frankly we’d be idiots to just go out blindly and learn everything the hard way. We get it, you know a lot. But you were a newbie too once upon a time, so how about talking to your audience with that in mind? Thank you.

Just be careful with rules. The overwhelming advice in threads like this is "never enter an ebb." That is mostly correct but a lousy rule because it's sometimes wrong and doesn't tell you why/when it is is wrong. A better rule is "be cautious of wind against a current." Whether you're crossing a bar, inlet, out in the Gulf Stream, or headed down a river, you can take that rule to the bank. Whenever there is a chance of current or wind, you should double check to see if the other exists and if it's contrary. Much more useful rule.

Example : Last week the winds on the Columbia were forecast out of the east so entering on an ebb would have much lower consequences. So someone following the rule might just wallow at the sea buoy needlessly waiting.

But if someone is looking to really reduce risk, listen to the USCG when they issue a small craft advisory. Of course, means there are probably only a couple days a month where that doesn't exist on the pacific. But it's not a bad rule to stay safe.

 

[psneeld]

Small craft advisories and even gale warnings are advisory in nature. Understanding local conditions rather than taking the advisories too absolutely is important.....but hard to explain to newer boaters.

So again the rule of thumb might be use them absolutely.. but experienced boaters and pros are going to use them as they see fit.

 

[mvweebles]

Small craft advisories and even gale warnings are advisory in nature. Understanding local conditions rather than taking the advisories too absolutely is important.....but hard to explain to newer boaters.

So again the rule of thumb might be use them absolutely.. but experienced boaters and pros are going to use them as they see fit.

My point is few really explain their thinking. They speak in absolutes - always do xxx. Never do yyy. I'm not saying tell someone else they should cross a bar, but saying how you make a decision to deviate from conventional wisdom is extremely helpful to anyone, myself included. There are times when entering a river on an ebb may be manageable for example, but the decision is brought with caution. I'd find it interesting to know what an experienced local helmsman considers when shedding conventional wisdom. I get very little out of rules, especially when I know they are impossible to be followed long term.

 

[caltexflanc]

It's not just about wind against the ebb current, it can also be about the ocean swell against the ebb current, which can exist due to winds and storm a long ways away.

As a side note, a good deal of the inlets here on the east coast are also not charted, and the CG does a pretty good, though seldom immediate job of moving the markers, and the USACE of publishing their latest surveys which sometimes take awhile, it seems like, to reach the NOAA charts. Keeping up on the LNMs and the USACE hydrology sites is a must do.

And one more side note, some buddies and I went on a fishing charter out of Depot Bay many years ago. We thought it was pretty cool, as we were clueless about what was involved seamanship wise. We caught some nice salmon and nobody got seasick so it was a great trip as far as we were concerned, happily drinking our Oly's on the sleigh ride through the inlet. Whoopee!

 

[psneeld]

My point is few really explain their thinking. They speak in absolutes - always do xxx. Never do yyy. I'm not saying tell someone else they should cross a bar, but saying how you make a decision to deviate from conventional wisdom is extremely helpful to anyone, myself included. There are times when entering a river on an ebb may be manageable for example, but the decision is brought with caution. I'd find it interesting to know what an experienced local helmsman considers when shedding conventional wisdom. I get very little out of rules, especially when I know they are impossible to be followed long term.

I wasn't disagreeing with you...I agree 100% that many posts on TF are answering in definites when it really is "it depends".


Some believe advice should be given to the lowest common denominator...the "not so good" helmsman, handyman, planner, etc....where I prefer to say yes it can be done a certain way but "this or that" has to be considered and might not be the best practices way, the only way, the ABYC way, or whatever someone "thinks" is "the right way".

 

[AusCan]

. I get very little out of rules, especially when I know they are impossible to be followed long term.

Yup. I agree.

So many variables with tidal flow, current, wind, available speed and boat design. One rule does not fit all.

Experience helps. Get to know how your boat behaves in a variety of conditions. Start small and work your way up.
Watch the waves; see where and when they are breaking; learn the patterns and the relationship between river current, tide, depth, ocean current and wind.

If you surf, you have a big head start.

 

[localboy]

A guy I work with keeps his Bertram at Depoe Bay. He's a big tuna fisherman. That entrance is, uh, "interesting" to say the least. He laughs about it but at the same time says you "better know what you're doing" and "your boat better have the speed required to outrun any waves if you mess up".


That Endeavor one will make your heart skip a beat.

 

[Lepke]

In a following sea or crossing a bar with most boats, it's a matter of good hand steering. Most autopilots don't respond fast enough. You need a wheel to rudder ratio that allows you to quickly go to maximum rudder if necessary. If you're just having a terrible time and on the edge of broaching, your rudder may not be big enough. There are several ways of increasing rudder size including making a new one.

Another helper is extending your keel a foot or more. It makes it harder for a wave to push the boat sideways and the boat tends to go straighter. The boat also rolls less. If you have paravanes it's a good time to use them. If you get caught in the trough in big waves, the paravanes will keep you from capsizing. Hopefully.

 

[Fish53]

Looking for others to tell you how to do it doesn't work, asking for some advice and insight is more useful. Nothing teaches like experience and you ain't gonna get that on the internet. Boats don't all handle the same, in fact they vary widely my little boat handles it easily but it was built to. Something without much draft and a broad transom will be entirely different. I don't know if it's in newer books but in my 1969 copy of Chapman's there's a good chapter on bar crossings that could offer some general but factual information for a beginner.

 

[Fletcher500]

MVW, not sure why you quoted me, and then referenced fear of bars. I was simply relating set wave heights that I have seen as an avid ocean distance paddler who is on the water 3 to 4 days per week, year round. It goes without saying that all of the harbor entrances in SoCal are tranquil bath tubs most of the time, including the Winter. The two that I have seen stack up are Mission Bay and Oceanside, the latter when shoaling occurs in between dredging. A few years ago the steel tower on the north side of the MB entrance was literally blown off the rocks by breaking waves, so things do happen at times down here on the lower side of the coast.

 

[mvweebles]

MVW, not sure why you quoted me, and then referenced fear of bars. I was simply relating set wave heights that I have seen as an avid ocean distance paddler who is on the water 3 to 4 days per week, year round. It goes without saying that all of the harbor entrances in SoCal are tranquil bath tubs most of the time, including the Winter. The two that I have seen stack up are Mission Bay and Oceanside, the latter when shoaling occurs in between dredging. A few years ago the steel tower on the north side of the MB entrance was literally blown off the rocks by breaking waves, so things do happen at times down here on the lower side of the coast.

Looking back, I'm not sure either. Butt-dual?

 

[T210DRVR]

When I was much younger I launched a 20’ trailer boat from Ventura CA harbor to go dive Santa Cruz Island with an equally young and dumb buddy. The red flag was flying but the wind was dead calm. It was a beautiful day in the winter and it was pre-internet so weather info wasn’t instantly available.

We headed out the channel and saw breaking Blue Water come across the wall that protects the jetty. How bad can it be we thought? As soon as we turn the corner we see a 10-12’ swell about to break on us. We manage to crawl over the top, do a 180 and make it back to the jetty. We later read about two commercial fish trawlers at the islands that were swept off anchor at the islands and run aground by 25-30’ swells.

The things that don’t kill you are the things you learn the most from.

 

[D.Duck44]

Portage Bay, I just saw your query about what sort of boat I used with the strategy of holding in reverse before a cresting wave on a bar crossing.
The boat in question is a long keeled transom sterned yacht of relatively low power and quite heavy. The transom is quite high and there is an aft cabin. The rudder is transom hung.
The boat just rises and the wave goes under her.
I agree one would have to be cautious using this technique with a wide sterned boat having low freeboard.
I guess it comes down to boat specific knowledge and techniques. (We sold the Diesel Duck - too difficult trying to restore a boat as tourists!)



Cheers,
Richard.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I have really appreciated this thread. It contains a lot of good advice to help those of us who are less experienced learn from those who have been around the block.

But a word to the old salts: Please stop treading all over those of us wanting to learn with your “you just have to try it” and “if you just had experience you’d be good at it” and “a skilled mariner doesn’t have to worry about those rules of thumb”.

Those of us with considerable experience are not trying to tread on those with less, we're trying to help. I did offer what I think is a good rule of thumb, cross a bar on a flood current. I do think the subsequent chat about try it, learn etc was in no small part directed at those of us who do offer a general rule of thumb and that it may have sounded like and been taken by some as an unbreakable rule.

By definition, those of us asking the questions are not “experts”, that’s why we’re asking. So rules of thumb do help. And ideal windows do help us get started and gain experience. Of course once we get several crossings under our belts we’ll learn to expand our options, but frankly we’d be idiots to just go out blindly and learn everything the hard way. We get it, you know a lot. But you were a newbie too once upon a time, so how about talking to your audience with that in mind? Thank you.

I do remember the newbie days. And I remember getting my arse kicked in the learning process. And I still get it handed to me on occasion. Weather predictions and to some extent current predictions are only that, predictions.

I'll expand on my rule of thumb to cross on a flood tide. The basic point is that opposing wind or seas and current will kick up and make things worse. Specifically the OP is in Long Beach so I answered from the point of view of crossing the bars of the west coast of North American.

And here we get into generalizations and why some of the posters said don't follow any rule offered by any of us as an absolute. Get out there and learn what you and your boat can do.

• Generally recreational boating takes place in the warmer months.
• Generally the west coast winds have moderate to strong onshore. component during the warmer months.
• Generally as the day warms and the inland areas heat up a wind develops up river, up inlet etc. At times quite a strong wind.
• Generally slack currents and high or low tides do not occur at the same time.
• Wind driven waves will react to opposing currents quite differently than a long period swell.
• Storms, heavy rains, unusual weather patterns. And it all can be quite different.

In my opinion the general rule to cross on a flood current during the warmer months on the west coast of North America is a good place for the inexperienced to cut their teeth. There are just too many variables to try to pass on anything more meaningful than a general rule of thumb here. Only real on the water experience can teach you how to handle all of those variables.

I see you are in Vancouver Wa so the Columbia River bar is in your back yard. That bar must be respected but it's also a great place to gain experience. It's wide and deep giving a typical recreational boat great lattitude in choosing a favorable course. There's a great deal of information available on conditions. May I suggest you head down to the Astoria/Hammond/Ilwaco area and try your hand at the bar crossings. Start on low wind, low wave days, cross out and back in on the flood. Get a feel for it. Then push it bit more. I suggest Astoria or Hammond rather than Ilwaco because as you exit the channel from Ilwaco and pass Jetty A you're pretty much in the thick of it. From Astoria or Hammond you can get eyeballs on the bar and turn around if it's beyond your comfort zone.

The only hard rules I'll give you with respect to the Columbia River bar are.

• Stay away from Peacock Spit, it's a sneaky bugger and can go from OK to truly nasty in moments.
• Stay away from Clatsop Spit, the USCG uses it as a surf rescue training ground for good reason.
• When learning to handle opposing currents and winds / seas if you see breaking seas ahead turn around. The rough stuff will only get bigger as you get into it and go much further out to see or up the river than you think it will.