Cruising with guns

[albin43]

I am going to be getting underway heading south in my trawler. I have a NYS concealed carry permit, however no other states reciprocate. What is the law for cruising with guns? I want to be able to protect myself but I don't want to break the law. Tough problem in America today....


Thanks!

 

[Tom.B]

Before we get too far into this thread, may I point out the notation in the community rules. Please discuss all you like, but lets keep is non-political and civil... Thank you.

*Discussions about politics, religion and weaponry are likely to be closed or removed if they turn into flame fests and are only permitted in the Off The Deep End Forum. Members must opt in (join) The Off The Deep End forum to view content posted in that area.

 

[albin43]

Before we get too far into this thread, may I point out the notation in the community rules. Please discuss all you like, but lets keep is non-political and civil... Thank you.

*Discussions about politics, religion and weaponry are likely to be closed or removed if they turn into flame fests and are only permitted in the Off The Deep End Forum. Members must opt in (join) The Off The Deep End forum to view content posted in that area.

Thanks, Should I move it to the deep end forum?

 

[Tom.B]

No... It's a valid question that many members have dealt with and can help you with. That's what we are here for. Hey... I'd like to know what the rules are too without diving into the politics of it.

 

[Pau Hana]

Per the following site, you'll be OK in NC (just as you pass Tom!)

Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Maps - USA Carry

 

[obthomas]

I too want to know the rules???? I'm in Texas.

 

[obthomas]

What if you don't have a CHL?

 

[Off Duty]

As long as you are in the U.S., you are fine having a weapon on board your vessel. It's when you step ashore that things get murky.

Several states as noted by the above link, do recognize your permit.
Other states have non-resident permits that you may qualify for as well.

And some stated have open carry, and no or minimal requirements for a license.

In some places though, unless you're carrying under HR218, you're SOL for concealed carry, sorry.

I'll be happy to do a little digging around for you this weekend and see what I can find out.


OD

 

[cafesport]

What if you don't have a CHL?

Mine expired a few years ago so no more concealed for me anymore. Now I don't need it. Still keep them in the car the house and the boats. When abroad I just declare them as required and I stay away from Mexico. Federal waters are all fine. And you can get a non resident permit in fl that it believe has reciprocity.

Sent from my iPhone

 

[bravo6]

There is a book called ''Travelers Guide to Firearms Laws all 50 States'' It is available thru Amazon or the NRA or just google it. It is written by a lawyer and updated regularly. While I would not consider it ''legal'' advise it does provide an overview of this complicated subject.

 

[Bilgewater]

A marina friend of ours has elected not to cruise with weapons. But he does have several cans of that wasp and bee killer that can reach out 20 feet or more. A shot to an intruder's face should prevent any further mischief. I'm thinking of following his example to avoid the hassle.

 

[Giggitoni]

Off Duty is correct. It's fine to have a gun onboard. If boarded by the Coast Guard they just want to know if you have one and where it's located.

The reciprocity maps which Pau Hana provided is a big help. I don't know your schedule, however, if you have time, you could apply to Florida and obtain a "non-resident" permit. That will allow you to carry concealed in most states down the east coast (except for SC) to Florida. That will give you concealed carry rights in 30 states; 31 states including New York.

Good luck. Perhaps someday we will have a "national" CCW permit which will be recognized in all 50 states....but don't hold your breath!

 

[MC Escher]

First, let me thank you for asking a question about which I actually have something useful to contribute.


I like to use the USA CARRY reciprocity maps.

There is also a CCW app for the iPhone, and I would presume non-apple phones as well.


If you have a Residential NYS carry permit, you can carry in Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New York, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont & Wisconsin.

If you get a Pennsylvania Non-Resident permit, which is actually quite easy to get once you already have a permit from ANYWHERE else in the States; that adds Wyoming, North Dakota, Arkansas, Louisiana, Georgia and both Virginias.


If you get a UTAH non-resident, which is class & mail order deal that is very popular it's easier to list the states that DON'T honor it: Oregon, Nevada, California, Colorado, New Mexico, Illinois, Florida, South Carolina and all of the Northeast States except PA, NY & Vermont.


If you get a Florida non-resident instead, the whole West Coast & Nevada is off limits, as is Colorado, Minnesota, Illinois, South Carolina and the whole northeast INCLUDING Pennsylvania, but not including NY and Vermont.

If you get the PA/FL/UT trifecta, you get PA back and you keep NY/VT. You still can't carry in South Carolina, Illinois, Colorado, Nevada, California and Oregon.

Be aware that different States have different policies and laws about what weapons are legal, what size magazines you're allowed to have and how weapons must be transported and stored. These also vary based on whether you have a concealed carry permit or not.

For instance, if you are on Lake Erie and step off onto Ohio, you can carry OPENLY with total legality, but if you get into a car you are suddenly dealing with a different set of rules if you don't have a permit Ohio recognizes. Also, an "Open Carry" can suddenly become concealed if you put on a jacket, even if the jacket only partially obscures the gun.



It's too late to make a long story short, but the bottom line is that it's a huge can of worms and you MUST research this stuff personally. After all, if you get it wrong it's YOU who will go to jail, even if you were following the bad advice of a police department you called.


Also, be aware that NOTHING I said applies to international waters. I don't even know what the rules are. Typically, navigable waters within the US fall under the laws of the States controlling them. However, be aware of where the borders lie. Be ESPECIALLY aware if you could potentially cross into Canadian waters.

Use this google string to get reliable help: "{insert name of state, without brackets} Gun Forum".

That will get you forums just like this one, the difference being subject matter. Just join, do some searches, ask some questions and enjoy your safe travels.

 

[Steve]

I was boarded by the Coast Guard for a routine inspection, as they approached they asked if I had any firearms onboard. I said yes and was told to unload them and put them on the bed. when they boarded one went below and hid the ammunition. No other mention of the guns, gun permits etc. after the inspection they told me where the ammo was and left. Very professional and courteous the entire time.
With other branches of law enforcement may be different I have no experience with them.

 

[Irdiverdan]

I was boarded by the Coast Guard for a routine inspection, as they approached they asked if I had any firearms onboard.

Whenever there are weapons and "official entities" involved it is always better to volunteer the fact that you are carrying or have weapons in the area...... Sometimes they ask as Steve points out...sometimes they don't. If they don't and you do not volunteer the information and then a weapon is discovered the "official entity" generally do not react well to that and it can get "dicey".... ...I have a concealed carry permit and if I ever deal with any official, I volunteer the information as soon as practicable and without exception I am thanked by the "official" and the encounters are never "tense". Another tip is never use or shout the word "gun". If you are in a noisy environment etc. or there are other officials nearby and all they hear is the word "gun" they sometimes react negatively to the word and the situation could get ugly...... Always use the word "weapon" and don't shout.

 

[hollywood8118]

If one is concerned about security when aboard a legal short barrel shotgun has less implications than a handgun, both internationally and domestically. Of course this does nothing when you step foot ashore. As a CCW holder I rarely carry aboard the boat as here in Washington it really hasn't been a issue, some parts of the country are a completely different story.

When we cruised the Pacific we carried a short shotgun, never declared it and never needed it. I always felt we were on our own and needed to be able to defend ourselves in far away places it it ever came to it.

During my recent trip to Panama we were shadowed for about an hour in the middle of the night at a range of about two miles.. no moon meant I couldn't see the other craft. When they decided to leave they blasted off in a different direction at over twenty knots.. I did have thoughts that having Mr Remington aboard might not have been a bad thing at the moment
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Irdiverdan]

During my recent trip to Panama we were shadowed for about an hour in the middle of the night at a range of about two miles.. no moon meant I couldn't see the other craft. When they decided to leave they blasted off in a different direction at over twenty knots.. I did have thoughts that having Mr Remington aboard might not have been a bad thing at the moment
HOLLYWOOD

I too would rather have Mr. Remington or Mr. Glock on board as opposed to Mr. Wasp Spray...

 

[markpierce]

California accepts no other state's CCW. One can't even open-carry a loaded or unloaded weapon in public. Very few sheriffs will issue a CCW to an ordinary citizen.

 

[Off Duty]

I was boarded by the Coast Guard for a routine inspection, as they approached they asked if I had any firearms onboard. I said yes and was told to unload them and put them on the bed. when they boarded one went below and hid the ammunition. No other mention of the guns, gun permits etc. after the inspection they told me where the ammo was and left. Very professional and courteous the entire time.
With other branches of law enforcement may be different I have no experience with them.

I see the procedure hasn't changed much, and I'm happy to hear that the boarding team was polite and professional. Always makes me proud to hear.

If one is concerned about security when aboard a legal short barrel shotgun has less implications than a handgun, both internationally and domestically. Of course this does nothing when you step foot ashore. As a CCW holder I rarely carry aboard the boat as here in Washington it really hasn't been a issue, some parts of the country are a completely different story.

When we cruised the Pacific we carried a short shotgun, never declared it and never needed it. I always felt we were on our own and needed to be able to defend ourselves in far away places it it ever came to it.

During my recent trip to Panama we were shadowed for about an hour in the middle of the night at a range of about two miles.. no moon meant I couldn't see the other craft. When they decided to leave they blasted off in a different direction at over twenty knots.. I did have thoughts that having Mr Remington aboard might not have been a bad thing at the moment
HOLLYWOOD

Interesting. Could have been a military or Panamanian Coast Guard checking you out, or a smuggler or other criminal element. Either way, good to hear they decided to go the other way

I agree that the shotgun is preferable to a handgun in many cases, just as we recommend it for home defense.
Less "aiming" required, which is good when your "ground" is rolling:lol: and your balance is off. Generally less penetration which is better in both home and shipboard defense, as compared to a round that's likely to penetrate a bulkhead and into a room where a loved one is inside, damaging necessary mechanical, hydraulic or electrical components. Not to mention the psychological impact of a shotgun over a handgun. Even the loading process of a shotgun can dissuade the less than dedicate criminal.

 

[Pau Hana]

California accepts no other state's CCW. One can't even open-carry a loaded or unloaded weapon in public. Very few sheriffs will issue a CCW to an ordinary citizen.

I'm so glad I left that crazy state- the libs are taking over more and more....

 

[Blue Heron]

In Florida as well as many southern states, there is NO duty to notify. I will not notify unless asked. Either it's legal or it is not.

 

[Irdiverdan]

I'm so glad I left that crazy state- the libs are taking over more and more....

California accepts no other state's CCW. One can't even open-carry a loaded or unloaded weapon in public. Very few sheriffs will issue a CCW to an ordinary citizen.

Hey guys...Tom politely asked earlier that we not go here.........I'm just saying...

 

[Irdiverdan]

In Florida as well as many southern states, there is NO duty to notify. I will not notify unless asked. Either it's legal or it is not.

While it's true that there is NO duty to notify in many states...without exception every officer I know...and I know many...absolutely prefers to be notified...notifying will generally make interactions less "tense"...being legal and within your rights will be little consolation if things go poorly...but as with most things this is a personal decision...I just know what I've been told and what has worked well for me in the past...

 

[GFC]

I know we have some active duty cops and retired cops on here. They are eligible to apply for a National Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act card that allows them to carry concealed in all states. It's worth checking out if you are in those categories.

 

[Off Duty]

If I may interject again...

While it's true that there is NO duty to notify in many states...without exception every officer I know...and I know many...absolutely prefers to be notified...notifying will generally make interactions less "tense"...being legal and within your rights will be little consolation if things go poorly...but as with most things this is a personal decision...I just know what I've been told and what has worked well for me in the past...

I have to agree here.

You have to understand that while there is no obligation to inform, if we're in contact with you for whatever reason, and a firearm (or the profile) is observed, we are understandably going to react differently than if you just said up front, hey officer, I have a permit and am carrying.

It's just a courtesy. It eases a potentially tense situation, and there's never a mistake regarding what you were reaching for.
If you don't tell me that you're carrying lawfully, and I see it or find it say on an officer safety pat down, it opens up doors for so many more questions and concerns. If the officer happens to see you reach for something that happens to be in the general vicinity of the weapon, and sees the weapon or it's profile at the same time, I can assure you there are going to be issues

In retrospect, I can't remember how many people on traffic stops and other contacts over the years, have given me the courtesy of informing me of their lawful carry, to which I simply responded "thank you", and went on about my business. In the back of my mind, I know that at least at the time of issuance, they were not convicted felons. And the fact is, I've never been harmed or threatened with a firearm, by a lawfully permitted citizen

I will say that on occasion, that courtesy notification as well as the persons demeanor, has caused me to change my mind on writing a ticket vs. a warning.

I know we have some active duty cops and retired cops on here. They are eligible to apply for a National Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act card that allows them to carry concealed in all states. It's worth checking out if you are in those categories.

That is HR218, which has been modified several time since it's inception under the Bush administration in 2004. It's the one I referred to in my first response.

It can now be found under 18 USC 926B and C (for active and retired LEO's respectively) (Public Law 111-272), and HR 4310 "The National Defense Authorization Act" (Public Law 112-239.

The link below should help anyone who feels they may qualify or have questions regarding it's applicability and restrictions.
http://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf

It gives a bit more latitude than a state license, is significantly less expensive, and is quicker to obtain in most case, at least in Florida where it takes the geniuses in Tallahassee 2 months to get it done
Instead, it took me 30 minutes to qualify and obtain the 218 certification card.

The 218 certification, if I did my research correctly, also doesn't carry some of the restrictions normally found in State law, such as the prohibition against concealed carry into a "nuisance" establishment, or one that receives over 50% of it's income from the sale of alcohol. Under Florida law, that would be a for a CCW holder.

That said, common sense has to prevail.
On the few occasions that I've entered a restaurant, and ended up at the bar (not generally my style), I have gone back to my vehicle and disarmed.

God forbid, something happens and I end up in a deadly force situation, I don't want to do so with a BAC of anything, and I certainly don't want to have a BAC, miss, and injure a bystander. Criminal statutes aside, the resulting civil suit, and I will assure you there will be a civil suit, will be at the very least, uncomfortable. No reason to place ones self in that position to begin with.

Finally, most agencies around here, have prohibitions against their officers, active or reserve, carrying off duty into bars and other venues as those described above. I figure that if I follow suit I should be ok.

Sorry for the long post.
I'll try to be more brief in the future.

OD

 

[Blue Heron]

While it's true that there is NO duty to notify in many states...without exception every officer I know...and I know many...absolutely prefers to be notified...notifying will generally make interactions less "tense"...being legal and within your rights will be little consolation if things go poorly...but as with most things this is a personal decision...I just know what I've been told and what has worked well for me in the past...

With respect diverdan, It doesn't matter what the officer prefers.
If asked, I will reply honestly. If not asked, I won't volunteer. It's immaterial.

 

[Blue Heron]

If I may interject again...

I have to agree here.

You have to understand that while there is no obligation to inform, if we're in contact with you for whatever reason, and a firearm (or the profile) is observed, we are understandably going to react differently than if you just said up front, hey officer, I have a permit and am carrying.

It's just a courtesy. It eases a potentially tense situation, and there's never a mistake regarding what you were reaching for.
If you don't tell me that you're carrying lawfully, and I see it or find it say on an officer safety pat down, it opens up doors for so many more questions and concerns. If the officer happens to see you reach for something that happens to be in the general vicinity of the weapon, and sees the weapon or it's profile at the same time, I can assure you there are going to be issues

In retrospect, I can't remember how many people on traffic stops and other contacts over the years, have given me the courtesy of informing me of their lawful carry, to which I simply responded "thank you", and went on about my business. In the back of my mind, I know that at least at the time of issuance, they were not convicted felons. And the fact is, I've never been harmed or threatened with a firearm, by a lawfully permitted citizen

I will say that on occasion, that courtesy notification as well as the persons demeanor, has caused me to change my mind on writing a ticket vs. a warning.

That is HR218, which has been modified several time since it's inception under the Bush administration in 2004. It's the one I referred to in my first response.

It can now be found under 18 USC 926B and C (for active and retired LEO's respectively) (Public Law 111-272), and HR 4310 "The National Defense Authorization Act" (Public Law 112-239.

The link below should help anyone who feels they may qualify or have questions regarding it's applicability and restrictions.
http://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf

It gives a bit more latitude than a state license, is significantly less expensive, and is quicker to obtain in most case, at least in Florida where it takes the geniuses in Tallahassee 2 months to get it done
Instead, it took me 30 minutes to qualify and obtain the 218 certification card.

The 218 certification, if I did my research correctly, also doesn't carry some of the restrictions normally found in State law, such as the prohibition against concealed carry into a "nuisance" establishment, or one that receives over 50% of it's income from the sale of alcohol. Under Florida law, that would be a for a CCW holder.

That said, common sense has to prevail.
On the few occasions that I've entered a restaurant, and ended up at the bar (not generally my style), I have gone back to my vehicle and disarmed.

God forbid, something happens and I end up in a deadly force situation, I don't want to do so with a BAC of anything, and I certainly don't want to have a BAC, miss, and injure a bystander. Criminal statutes aside, the resulting civil suit, and I will assure you there will be a civil suit, will be at the very least, uncomfortable. No reason to place ones self in that position to begin with.

Finally, most agencies around here, have prohibitions against their officers, active or reserve, carrying off duty into bars and other venues as those described above. I figure that if I follow suit I should be ok.

Sorry for the long post.
I'll try to be more brief in the future.

OD

Off duty, so if I am carrying legally and I am stopped with no duty to notify the stopping officer, why would the outcome be any different? If I am carrying a weapon and its legal to be on my person by permit and the law states I have no duty to inform, how exactly is it that you would react differently? I'm law abiding, have no intention of harming anyone and am legal.

If my weapon is in my glove box and my insurance and registration is collocated, I of course would notify the officer I have a weapon in the glove box.

If it is on my person and I am legal, the officer should never know if I have no duty to inform. Are body searches normal routine for traffic stops or boat stops?

"safety pat downs"? Why? What probable cause is observed to merit that? Most CCW permit holders ARE law abiding. Why make them non supporters of LEO by questionable action?

 

[Off Duty]

Off duty, so if I am carrying legally and I am stopped with no duty to notify the stopping officer, why would the outcome be any different? If I am carrying a weapon and its legal to be on my person by permit and the law states I have no duty to inform, how exactly is it that you would react differently? I'm law abiding, have no intention of harming anyone and am legal.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that one "must" inform an officer when they're lawfully carrying concealed. Only that it's never a bad idea.

Now, my stock answer to the last part is, I failed mind reading in the police academy. I have no way of knowing what your intentions are.

For the other part, for brevities sake, I would ask you to re-read my response. There are a lot of "ifs" in there.

If my weapon is in my glove box and my insurance and registration is collocated, I of course would notify the officer I have a weapon in the glove box.

Of course I agree with you. Common sense and decency prevail

If it is on my person and I am legal, the officer should never know if I have no duty to inform. Are body searches normal routine for traffic stops or boat stops?

Interestingly, other than a motorcycle rider, car and boat stops differ in that you can usually see the entire body of the person you are dealing with on a vessel stop, verses an automobile where most of the driver/passenger are concealed from view.

"Body searches" are neither common nor used in normal traffic stops. Such a search is conducted pursuant to an arrest or at the execution of a search or arrest warrant.

"safety pat downs"? Why? What probable cause is observed to merit that? Most CCW permit holders ARE law abiding. Why make them non supporters of LEO by questionable action?

"Pat downs" or what is commonly referred to as a "Terry Frisk" (Terry v. Ohio) is done where either probable cause is present that the individual may be armed, or for officer safety depending on the circumstances.

There is less of a burden to establish "probable cause" for a pat down for officer safety. Depending on a variety of factors, such as time of day, location, reason for the stop, violator actions, etc., one may find themselves subject to a terry frisk for the safety of the officer. Unfortunately, we've had a pretty bad run of luck with officer attacks and shootings the past few years As such, it's taking less and less for officers to frisk, and more and more officers are starting to become more aware.

As you mentioned though, in a motor vehicle, unless you're carrying in a shoulder holster, or it is revealed when say, you bend over to get your registration from the glove box, then more than likely the officer is never going to know your packing

If it's a simple traffic stop, where you're not going to be exiting your vehicle, and the possibility of suddenly exhibiting your weapon to the officer as you, maybe reach for your license, then it's your call.

I still tell them just to make sure we don't have any "mistakes."
If I am going to be outside the car, I'd definitely tell them.
Damaged pride hurts.
Bullet holes hurt like holy hell!!

In the end my friend, it's really up to you.

All the best.

OD

 

[Blue Heron]

So it would follow that the NRA sticker on a car would give a LEO "probable cause"..? I suppose my Veteran status on my drivers license also could make the leap for probable cause if I am armed?

Here is a thought: how about actual application of the law?

If I am stopped for a routine traffic stop and the state I am stopped in doesn't require notification, then I expect the stopping officer to follow the law as required. If the voters and law makers wanted a mandatory notification it would have been in the law.

If I am forced out of my vehicle and I am carrying, I would inform the officer at this point that I was infact carrying but this officer also needs to make damn sure he has probable cause.

I want to support law enforcement and as long as they are applying the law I will. I also know and have seen much abuse of power and authority.
Citizens that obey the law have a right to also make it home. No matter how they come into "contact" with LEO.

 

[Blue Heron]

For the Original Poster, this exchange demonstrates the varying attitude you will get from Law Enforcement and other Boaters.

In the end, it's all a question of you knowing the laws and know them well.

It doesn't hurt to have an attorney on speed dial.