Dashew fpb 64

[cafesport]

I view Steve and his boats like auto racing enthusiasts view Colin Chapman. The whole world is better off because of their designs and thoughts. I sailed a deer foot 62 and there was a time when to almost ordered an fpb. Now I’m looking at some other options. Fwiw one of those 64’s owners offered a trade while sharing an anchorage in the Bahamas. Oh and I have had a number of 300nm days on sailboats but that was before gps and good auto pilots had been invented. Now I’m content with 175nm but using the stream to run north we usually average 230nm.

 

[sunchaser]

Short of the US Navy and a tiny few racers who is doing 300nm days offshore ?

The non racing SV Lightning did 424 nm in one day in the mid 1800s. Akzo Nobel SV did an astounding +600 nm is a day, yes as part of the Volvo Ocean racing series.

250 - 300 nm/day are quite common for today's large non racing sailing yachts especially when in the trades. A 12+ knot average for a larger SD powered yacht is normally a design criteria. This would apply to many yachts including Outer Reef, Horizon, Ocean Alexander, Westport, Delta, Feadship, Nordlund and many more.

Dashew was quite happy running the Windhorse at 12-13 knots but with about 1/10 or less the fuel burn of the above mentioned yachts.

 

[mvweebles]

Short of the US Navy and a tiny few racers who is doing 300nm days offshore ?

I would say this is laughable but am certainly open to being educated on who and how they are accomplishing this.

300 nm/day (a number I've tossed out too) is only a slight exaggeration, though 12-1/2 jts (300 nm/day) is well within her design parameter (top speed 13-1/4 kts). See FPB 78 Blog https://setsail.com/fpb-78-the-dream-machine-reality-updated-may-24-2017/

FPB 78-2 Grey Wolf averaged 11.6 knots on her maiden ocean crossing from New Zealand to New Caledonia. (NOTE - 265 nm/day)

More recently, she averaged 14 knots on a 500 nm coastwise cruise along the eastern seaboard of the U.S (NOTE - likely with Gulf Stream bump - 335 nm/day)

4,700 nm upwind passage from French Polynesia to Panama, against the prevailing trade winds and currents, at an average speed of ten knots (NOTE - obviously 240 nm/day - this is a truly impressive passage)

Peter

 

[caltexflanc]

The big sport-fisher boats do 300nm a day offshore all the time.

 

[cardude01]

Pretty impressive window strength, and the ability to pierce the wave instead of rise up and pitch is pretty cool.

https://youtu.be/7aBAHEy1bdA

 

[Fletcher500]

As noted by the previous comments, people with a sailing background are more apt to like this design. I have always thought they were remarkable vessels and appreciate their utilitarian aesthetics and hull efficiency. We just the do the coastal cruising thing and didn’t want anything longer than 49 ft for slip and mooring access, but if we we were covering larger distances and boat length was not an issue I would definitely consider one.

 

[Simi 60]

As noted by the previous comments, people with a sailing background are more apt to like this design. I have always thought they were remarkable vessels and appreciate their utilitarian aesthetics and hull efficiency.

Im sure plenty of us have sailing backgrounds yet here we are with trawlers
Gee, I came from a 30+ft fast sailing sports boat and sailing cat background yet look what we run with now.

 

[Simi 60]

. And when someone says...."for me"...that's subjective, not logic.

Logic was the process used that allowed me to say "for me"

BTW, did you ever find out how thick the hull and windows are?

Like I said, Sher Khan is not a submarine like the fpb, so
20mm thick wheelhouse windows are probably not required when the wheelhouse is 20ft off the water. (Ours are 8mm)
Hull plating would be whatever DNV and USL require, I would suggest every bit of 12mm if not more.

But, as I am not in the market for that vessel or trying to point score I don't need to find out the window or hull thickness.

 

[David Ess]

Sunchaser......Exactly!

 

[David Ess]

Logic was the process used that allowed me to say "for me"




Like I said, Sher Khan is not a submarine like the fpb, so
20mm thick wheelhouse windows are probably not required when the wheelhouse is 20ft off the water. (Ours are 8mm)
Hull plating would be whatever DNV and USL require, I would suggest every bit of 12mm if not more.

But, as I am not in the market for that vessel or trying to point score I don't need to find out the window or hull thickness.

I'll take the 20mm windows instead of the 8mm ones you'll have when that 100 foot rogue wave hits.

 

[Peter B]

I'll take the 20mm windows instead of the 8mm ones you'll have when that 100 foot rogue wave hits.

David, Simi is a far better straw splitter than even you are, so I'd advise you to just give up now while you're sort of even, ok..? We really don't want to have to umpire this one...

 

[mvweebles]

After hurricane Andrew in 1992 in south Florida, residential building codes changed..... A lot. They found that maintaining the buildings envelope was key. Prevent roofs from lifting off and windows from shattering resulted in substantially reduced damage. Not unlike a boat in force 10+ conditions

As a result impact rated glass was developed and tested to withstand an 8-foot 2x4 launched horizontally - end first - at 134 mph. The glass can shatter but the membrane must remain intact. This is accomplished by sandwiching two 3/16" tempered glass plates over a clear neoprene membrane. It takes a fireman's ax and a strong man to penetrate. It might be 1/2" (12mm), but dang it's strong. Strong enough that the attachments give way before the window breaks

My point being that thickness is not the right measurement. There is more to this

Of course most sane and knowledgeable recreational mariners do all the can to avoid Force 6+ conditions. They learn to read pilot charts, learn some weather basics, and and leave their schedule behind so you don't encounter stupid seas

Peter

 

[cardude01]

I’ve watched a few Dashew videos of them in big (10-15’) scary seas. The boats look like they handle it fine, but I would be scared sh@tress in those seas. I know that Dashew is a skilled pilot and he makes it all look easy, but a newb like me in seas like that, even in a FPB, would be dangerous I think.

 

[Simi 60]

Of course most sane and knowledgeable recreational mariners do all the can to avoid Force 6+ conditions. They learn to read pilot charts, learn some weather basics, and and leave their schedule behind so you don't encounter stupid seas

Peter

I suspect the OP is not in that category.

 

[FF]

Good speed under power is not a modern concept,these were much heavier than would be built today , with heavy engines.

Marco Polo - Francis Herreshoff

After the Second World War, Francis Herreshoff published a design for a long-distance offshore cruiser he called Marco Polo. Long, lean, and light, Marco Polo was designed for efficiency under power, but was also equipped with sails for steadying, additional drive, and get-home power. A three-masted rig provided adequate sail area down low with lots of combinations available, depending on wind strength and velocity. No sail was too large for the single watch-keeper Herreshoff envisioned. Marco Polo was intended to be driven around the clock at 10 knots, a tremendous speed at a time when sailing ocean cruisers averaged 100 miles (160.9 km) per day. The boat is 55’ x 10’ (16.8m x 3m), with a designed displacement of 42,500 lbs (19,277.7 kg). On a 49’ (15m) waterline this is a displacement/length ratio of 161. Marco Polo has an outside ballast keel of 14,600 lbs (6,622.5 kg)—34% of its displacement—reflecting the fact that the vessel carries 812 sq ft (75.4 sq m) of sail. Herreshoff claimed it would sail well in moderate and heavy weather, as well as go farther and faster than many pure powerboats.

Jim Hawkins - Avard Fuller

Avard Fuller is an amateur designer who saw potential in long lean hulls, as well. While working with builder Bob Derecktor, Fuller developed a series of light-displacement ocean cruisers. One example of Fuller’s work is Jim Hawkins, a 61’ x 13’ (18.6m x 4m) yacht launched in 1969 that displaced 47,500 lbs (21,545.6 kg), fully loaded. With a 58’4" (17.8m) LWL, the displacement/length ratio is 107. Two Volvo Penta MD29 engines generate 64-hp each and push the boat at a maximum of 9.5 knots in smooth water. At 7.5 knots, and a speed/length ratio of 0.98, the engines are running at 1,850 rpm and burning 2 gal/hr (7.6 l/hr). When new, Jim Hawkins ran the 1,170 miles (1,882.9 km) from Morehead City, North Carolina to St. Thomas, Virgin Islands in 140 hours while burning 561 gallons (2,123.6 l) of fuel. Average speed was 8.35 knots and fuel consumption was just over 4 gal/hr (15.1 l/hr).

 

[David Ess]

After hurricane Andrew in 1992 in south Florida, residential building codes changed..... A lot. They found that maintaining the buildings envelope was key. Prevent roofs from lifting off and windows from shattering resulted in substantially reduced damage. Not unlike a boat in force 10+ conditions

As a result impact rated glass was developed and tested to withstand an 8-foot 2x4 launched horizontally - end first - at 134 mph. The glass can shatter but the membrane must remain intact. This is accomplished by sandwiching two 3/16" tempered glass plates over a clear neoprene membrane. It takes a fireman's ax and a strong man to penetrate. It might be 1/2" (12mm), but dang it's strong. Strong enough that the attachments give way before the window breaks

My point being that thickness is not the right measurement. There is more to this

Of course most sane and knowledgeable recreational mariners do all the can to avoid Force 6+ conditions. They learn to read pilot charts, learn some weather basics, and and leave their schedule behind so you don't encounter stupid seas

Peter

Peter, agree thickness is not the only variable, and there are all sorts of other specs, like what you mentioned. I tried to find a test i saw that one of the Dutch builders uses...a test whereby they drop they drop huge hunks of concrete on windows from certain heights. If I can find again, ill send in. The point above though was that some dont know, or even care what the standards are for the windows in their boat.

 

[David Ess]

I suspect the OP is not in that category.

I weote the OP, and simply asked a question. On your point about trying to avoid stormy weather, many try, and in spite of that, still get caught out. For such circumstances I prefer a very sturdy boat.

 

[Fletcher500]

David, Simi is a far better straw splitter than even you are, so I'd advise you to just give up now while you're sort of even, ok..? We really don't want to have to umpire this one...

There are also plenty of other professional level straw splitters who reside on this website.

 

[caltexflanc]

There are a number of certification entities that approve designs and/or components for various offshore purposes, such as CE and ABS.

No vessel is immune from all the forces of nature however.

As one of my favorite saws goes "The sign of a captain with superior seamanship skills is that he takes what measures he can to avoid having to use them."

 

[Hippocampus]

Often lost in these discussions is the difference between what you’re boat can do and what you’re willing to do.
Look at the rallies. Although modern cruising blue water multis can go faster than monos . But time and time again there’s not the expected difference in transit times on that basis in actual passage times. It gets uncomfortable to go fast. It’s harder on the boat and crew. Makes it more likely for things to break as well.
From personal experience go on a well balanced boat with a good comfort motion or other measure of kindliness and a racing one off. Unless you have “the boys” on board you’re just not going to operate at anything close to the capabilities of the faster craft. You operate much closer to the theoretical hull speed on the more comfortable boat day to day on passage. This has nothing to do with safety nor capability.
Same with a Nordie , northern, Cape Horn or other passage making expedition yacht c/w any of the narrow, light displacement aluminum boats such as fpbs, Artnautica, Arksen etc. of course size matters and once you get over ~60’ this point is less compelling. But especially for small boats the comfort of high displacement to lwl ratio full displacement trawlers usually means you’re going to running closer to a more optimal S/L and have faster transits. I understand the tactic of running faster in traditional semi displacement hulls to improve comfort but doubt that’s a viable option in common ocean settings of significant wind waves on top of moderately large ocean swells.

 

[David Ess]

Often lost in these discussions is the difference between what you’re boat can do and what you’re willing to do.
Look at the rallies. Although modern cruising blue water multis can go faster than monos . But time and time again there’s not the expected difference in transit times on that basis in actual passage times. It gets uncomfortable to go fast. It’s harder on the boat and crew. Makes it more likely for things to break as well.
From personal experience go on a well balanced boat with a good comfort motion or other measure of kindliness and a racing one off. Unless you have “the boys” on board you’re just not going to operate at anything close to the capabilities of the faster craft. You operate much closer to the theoretical hull speed on the more comfortable boat day to day on passage. This has nothing to do with safety nor capability.
Same with a Nordie , northern, Cape Horn or other passage making expedition yacht c/w any of the narrow, light displacement aluminum boats such as fpbs, Artnautica, Arksen etc. of course size matters and once you get over ~60’ this point is less compelling. But especially for small boats the comfort of high displacement to lwl ratio full displacement trawlers usually means you’re going to running closer to a more optimal S/L and have faster transits. I understand the tactic of running faster in traditional semi displacement hulls to improve comfort but doubt that’s a viable option in common ocean settings of significant wind waves on top of moderately large ocean swells.

Some of us are quite happy at speeds of 5-7knts. I remember the story of the convoy going from CA to Hawaii. One old couple took waaaaaay longer to arrive than the others. When they finally arrived , the others found out that the old couple hove to at sunset, and just continued in the morning!

 

[David Ess]

Peter, that Dutch standard is NEN-EN 356, for ballistic , blast and physical assault. They even drop a metal ball of 4,11 kg, from a height of 6 meters,,,,,,,3 times. I like windows of such standards.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, that Dutch standard is NEN-EN 356, for ballistic , blast and physical assault. They even drop a metal ball of 4,11 kg, from a height of 6 meters,,,,,,,3 times. I like windows of such standards.

They sound expensive. I just purchased 3/8" tempered glass in bronze. 30"x18" was about $300 just for the glass - times 8 for all my windows. No lamination, no mounting, nothing. Just the glass. Plenty rich for my blood.

I personally believe such equipment makes sense on vessels who are either at-risk of impact due to stuff like boom cranes swinging around deck; or have no choice in their scheduled sailings. If you plan to schedule passages for known seasonal weather windows, stuff like this adds an enormous amount of cost with no real benefit.

Just depends on what your plans are. There is no way I could get my wife to accompany me anywhere where something like this might be even remotely needed. I can't say as I blame her/

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

They sound expensive. I just purchased 3/8" tempered glass in bronze. 30"x18" was about $300 just for the glass - times 8 for all my windows. No lamination, no mounting, nothing. Just the glass. Plenty rich for my blood.

I personally believe such equipment makes sense on vessels who are either at-risk of impact due to stuff like boom cranes swinging around deck; or have no choice in their scheduled sailings. If you plan to schedule passages for known seasonal weather windows, stuff like this adds an enormous amount of cost with no real benefit.

Just depends on what your plans are. There is no way I could get my wife to accompany me anywhere where something like this might be even remotely needed. I can't say as I blame her/

Peter

The need for windows like that also depends a bit on the design of the boat and placement of the windows. Some boat / window placement combinations make it easier to put a big slug of green water against the windows than others. On my own boat, I don't really worry about the windows. The ones in the aft cabin are the first point of concern, but still a minor one. If I manage to hit them with solid water, I'm already in a situation this boat doesn't belong in and will be dealing with other issues. And the conditions required for that to happen are pretty darn bad.

 

[David Ess]

They sound expensive. I just purchased 3/8" tempered glass in bronze. 30"x18" was about $300 just for the glass - times 8 for all my windows. No lamination, no mounting, nothing. Just the glass. Plenty rich for my blood.

I personally believe such equipment makes sense on vessels who are either at-risk of impact due to stuff like boom cranes swinging around deck; or have no choice in their scheduled sailings. If you plan to schedule passages for known seasonal weather windows, stuff like this adds an enormous amount of cost with no real benefit.

Just depends on what your plans are. There is no way I could get my wife to accompany me anywhere where something like this might be even remotely needed. I can't say as I blame her/

Peter

Fair enough, but my focus was safety not cost. Damen uses this standard on their tugboats at least....I think on others too.

 

[rslifkin]

Fair enough, but my focus was safety not cost. Damen uses this standard on their tugboats at least....I think on others too.

With any safety thing, you have to determine what the point is where you have enough safety margin for your usage and the extra cost of further improvement is better spent elsewhere. No matter what you have, it can always be better, stronger, etc. The question is when is it enough that more will never make a difference to you?

 

[mvweebles]

With any safety thing, you have to determine what the point is where you have enough safety margin for your usage and the extra cost of further improvement is better spent elsewhere. No matter what you have, it can always be better, stronger, etc. The question is when is it enough that more will never make a difference to you?

Tugboat have a lot of lines and chains under tremendous stress. Windows like those are for protection from projectiles, not green water.

 

[David Ess]

With any safety thing, you have to determine what the point is where you have enough safety margin for your usage and the extra cost of further improvement is better spent elsewhere. No matter what you have, it can always be better, stronger, etc. The question is when is it enough that more will never make a difference to you?

I already mentioned that for me it's the 100ft rogue wave, a pirate with rifle and axe. There are off the shelf windows/portholes that are up to that. I was surprised that some guys dont know or care, as has been mentioned.

 

[rslifkin]

I already mentioned that for me it's the 100ft rogue wave, a pirate with rifle and axe. There are off the shelf windows/portholes that are up to that. I was surprised that some guys dont know or care, as has been mentioned.

The vast majority of boaters are never in a place or situation where either of those things is even a remote risk.

 

[Hippocampus]

Every since oyster put those ugly three windows in the middle of the hulls of their boats every body has followed. Now to see them on trawlers, cats, and virtually all sailboats over 40’. Been on a fair number of boats with them and find it disconcerting when you’re underway as the seas splash and pass by. Told with modern adhesives, framing and glass technologies they are as strong or stronger than the hull itself. Still, aesthetically just don’t like them.
However do think that strong laminated glass makes great sense for port lights if risk of down flooding exists.