DeFever owners-- what information can you provide?

[sneal4600]

Good Afternoon,

I have been researching a trawler purchase for a few years and am getting close to making serious offers on several that are currently for sale. One is a DeFever CPMY 49. It is a one-owner boat that was spec'd with some upgrades for long hauls across the Atlantic. It has twin John Deere 4045 w/ 2100 hrs each. Two aux generator, Naiad stabilizers, hard top and a water maker. By all accounts, these systems are in good working order. Where the issues begin are related to cosmetic and soft good items. Upholstery on the aft deck is needing replacement. Several of the teak tables and arm chair rests are flaking and faded. Electronics are original. The whole boat needs a good cleaning and polish. It did have a recent haul out and bottom job. Not sure what that looks like yet.
My question to DeFever owners or those knowledgeable about them is this: How many of these boats of let's say 2000-2004 era are out there? Would I like a pristine version of this boat? Yes. But if this one is sound mechanically, but needs an estimated 20k-35k in deferred maintenance items and cosmetic upgrades would the sweat equity be reasonable. Hypothetically, the boat could be bought for somewhere in the 275k range (depending on the owners obviously). I see these boats north of 300k so the value could be there. Any thoughts would be welcome.

 

[READY]

Probably all of the early 2k boats are still out there. What you describe is not unusual as it is hard to find "perfect" boats for sale.Typically an owner looses interest and investment and care goes down before they decide to sell.

The big ticket items are all the systems and you will need to get a good mechanical survey and review the service records.

As far as price there is no way anyone can provide any realistic estimate of value without really knowing the details.

At the risk of thread drift have you checked into insurance and dockage? If you can get insurance the carrier might not be willing to value it the same as you or the market.

 

[Mambo42]

I have a Defever 49 and the way I looked at the boat (when I was in the process of buying it) was: 'are the basics in good condition and what 'extras' does it have onboard that we will need, which are going to cost a fortune if you would have to install them yourself. And does that condition reflect in the price I have to pay ?

One thing to check very well are all the electricity wiring. I had a survey done and all cables were found to be in good condition. Later it turned out they were absolutely not in good condition, so I had to rewire the whole boat.
I had the approach that all the cosmetics we could do ourselves, so basically did not care too much if the carpets, wood etc looked old. Since then we have changed most of the interior, still not 100 % finished, but it looks much different.
If you still have the metal (or aluminum) fuel tanks you could be looking at a high bill of replacing them, they don't have eternal life. In order to replace the tanks you basically have to empty the whole engine room, is a very heavy bill to pay.

Something you may want to test, prior to buying, is how the boat behaves on anchor in winds up to 10 - 20 kts or in a light swell. My boat was rolling horrendously, cannot be on anchor without stabilization. Naiads will provide stabilization while underway, but not on anchor. You don't want to buy a boat and find out staying on anchor for a longer period of time is a nightmare.

In the end it comes down to: 'what is that boat worth to you' ? Do you think you will be happy with the final boat for the final price. If that is a yes you go for it. If you think the boat is not worth it you just keep searching.

 

[sneal4600]

Probably all of the early 2k boats are still out there. What you describe is not unusual as it is hard to find "perfect" boats for sale.Typically an owner looses interest and investment and care goes down before they decide to sell.

The big ticket items are all the systems and you will need to get a good mechanical survey and review the service records.

As far as price there is no way anyone can provide any realistic estimate of value without really knowing the details.

At the risk of thread drift have you checked into insurance and dockage? If you can get insurance the carrier might not be willing to value it the same as you or the market.

Yes, I have called on insurance for this boat as a barometer (State Farm). Quoted $2359 with no experience quals requested. But it has to be out of Florida, no exceptions.

 

[sneal4600]

I have a Defever 49 and the way I looked at the boat (when I was in the process of buying it) was: 'are the basics in good condition and what 'extras' does it have onboard that we will need, which are going to cost a fortune if you would have to install them yourself. And does that condition reflect in the price I have to pay ?

One thing to check very well are all the electricity wiring. I had a survey done and all cables were found to be in good condition. Later it turned out they were absolutely not in good condition, so I had to rewire the whole boat.
I had the approach that all the cosmetics we could do ourselves, so basically did not care too much if the carpets, wood etc looked old. Since then we have changed most of the interior, still not 100 % finished, but it looks much different.
If you still have the metal (or aluminum) fuel tanks you could be looking at a high bill of replacing them, they don't have eternal life. In order to replace the tanks you basically have to empty the whole engine room, is a very heavy bill to pay.

Something you may want to test, prior to buying, is how the boat behaves on anchor in winds up to 10 - 20 kts or in a light swell. My boat was rolling horrendously, cannot be on anchor without stabilization. Naiads will provide stabilization while underway, but not on anchor. You don't want to buy a boat and find out staying on anchor for a longer period of time is a nightmare.

In the end it comes down to: 'what is that boat worth to you' ? Do you think you will be happy with the final boat for the final price. If that is a yes you go for it. If you think the boat is not worth it you just keep searching.

These are great observations and I agree with your assessments of functionality vs cosmetic flaws. The good news is this boat does have some high ticket items installed from the factory or by owner shortly after it was built. Of course a survey would be the microscopic look at the the internal systems. What made the electrical fail in from your perspective? I would like to look for that when the time comes. I have the same thoughts about working on the cosmetic items ourselves. Those can be picked through. Never thought of trying the boat out on the hook. I wonder if we could simulate that during the sea trial.


My offer on the boat may not be what the seller is looking for versus the asking price but with the condition some of the boat looks to be in, we have to protect ourselves. There will be other boats, the seller has to ask will there be other buyers?

 

[Mambo42]

What made the electrical fail in from your perspective? I would like to look for that when the time comes. I have the same thoughts about working on the cosmetic items ourselves. Those can be picked through. Never thought of trying the boat out on the hook. I wonder if we could simulate that during the sea trial.

The cables in my ER all had some form of insulation on them. So what they had done was to wrap a bunch of cables together in a cable beam in some sort of insulation. As long as you don't need to move the cables it looks fine, after all it is a bunch of cables wrapped in insulating material. Right ?
And that is how the survey was done. They saw the strands of cables and thought: 'ah looks good, we cannot take the insulation material away, but we think it is OK.

And then came the moment of truth.
I had to exchange the engines so all the cables, wiring etc had to be removed in order to be able to open up the hatches in the salon.
The second layer of insulating material came off (holding a bunch of cables together) and all of a sudden the insulation material on individual cables just started to crumble and break away.
If I would not have exchanged the engines I would have never found it. It might have gone well for many more years to come, but there is also the chance that in a heavy sea the cables would crumble, would connect and the batteries would have exploded.

So if you see a bunch of cables wrapped together.............just unwrap them and see what the status of the cables below is.

As for the offer to the current owner.
That is all up to you. If you think there is room to negotiate then go for it. If there is a lot of interest and you really want that boat........perhaps be willing to pay a bit more.
Once you have the boat you will realize that the few bucks you saved on the acquisition price are quickly spent on upgrading the boat. It is just the way we are. LOL

 

[Salty]

I have a DeFever 48. So, it's different from the 49. Had it for 24 years and love it. But at 83 years of age and bad health I must sell her.

 

[sneal4600]

The cables in my ER all had some form of insulation on them. So what they had done was to wrap a bunch of cables together in a cable beam in some sort of insulation. As long as you don't need to move the cables it looks fine, after all it is a bunch of cables wrapped in insulating material. Right ?
And that is how the survey was done. They saw the strands of cables and thought: 'ah looks good, we cannot take the insulation material away, but we think it is OK.

And then came the moment of truth.
I had to exchange the engines so all the cables, wiring etc had to be removed in order to be able to open up the hatches in the salon.
The second layer of insulating material came off (holding a bunch of cables together) and all of a sudden the insulation material on individual cables just started to crumble and break away.
If I would not have exchanged the engines I would have never found it. It might have gone well for many more years to come, but there is also the chance that in a heavy sea the cables would crumble, would connect and the batteries would have exploded.

So if you see a bunch of cables wrapped together.............just unwrap them and see what the status of the cables below is.

As for the offer to the current owner.
That is all up to you. If you think there is room to negotiate then go for it. If there is a lot of interest and you really want that boat........perhaps be willing to pay a bit more.
Once you have the boat you will realize that the few bucks you saved on the acquisition price are quickly spent on upgrading the boat. It is just the way we are. LOL

There is really valuable information in your post, thank you. The inspection and survey are only as good as the deep dive you take during the process. As a hands on owner, I plan to do as much due diligence as possible to ensure we have a full understanding of the boat. What I really like about the DeFever is the easy of maintenance (on a relative scale) offered by the spacious engine room. However, the wiring issue you bring up is easily overlooked so that point is definitely appreciated.

As this is my first dabble into the trawler market, the learning curve is steep right now. These are great conversations in the pre-planning stage.

 

[sneal4600]

I have a DeFever 48. So, it's different from the 49. Had it for 24 years and love it. But at 83 years of age and bad health I must sell her.

It is good to hear positive feedback on long-term ownership of a DeFever. It is a brand that does not get the commercial play like Grand Banks, Flemming, Selene, Krogen, etc. But they are tremendous seakeeping designs that can handle just about anything you throw at them. I hear the fit/finish is not exactly their strong point but to me the true value is in the safety and comfort they provide underway. Is there anything you would like the share about your DeFever for a prospective new owner to this brand?

 

[proudsailor]

We recently bought an 01' DF44oc. First leg of bringing her north, we encountered some rough coastal weather. She handled it much better than the crew. Stabilization is a must, at least for my marriage anyway. We didn't have much of a maintenance history so have started from scratch and just completed stabilizer service, and shaft/rudder packing, among a host of other items requiring action.

Generally speaking, solid boat. Cosmetic stuff will need addressing. Our side doors are weather damaged/warped so require some weatherization. We're re-doing all the soft goods to our liking so it is an expected expense whether needed or not. We do need to re-bed the forward deck hatch. In a nutshell, it's all about the maintenance and a really good survey will give you good insight and be worth every penny. We took a Kadey Krogen to survey and wanted it, but it was overpriced unfortunately and 18mos later still is for sale despite price reduction.

Is the boat you are considering a 44+5 or the 49RPH? 44+5 makes docking/boarding much easier. We're looking at Marquipt stairs or an equivalent for easy embarking/disembarking. We have gotten a bit better at landing lines. 44+5, like the 44 has some windage so docking can be a challenge w/o thrusters.

Good luck!
Mark

 

[Bill Wells]

If you like the vessel, make an offer subject to a good stiff out-of-the-water marine survey, including engines and a sea trial. Include whatever deficiencies you would expect the owner to correct on his dime.

 

[Boatfever]

I suggest you look into joining DeFever Cruisers Association. There is a wealth of DeFefever knowledge of various models and many folks willing to share their own experiences on all things DeFever.
Have owned my 49 CMY since 2014. She has JD 4045TFM50's and they've run well. No thruster, no stabilizers, and, not a lot of electronics when I bought her.
After ten years ownership and putting around 2300 hours on her, (a little over 3000hr total time) including three cruises of 5 to 6 months each, my opinion is you'll likely be getting a lot of boat for the money.
She can handle some rough stuff but, unstabilized, she has a healthy amount of roll in beam seas with the wrong period. (Turn my avatar pic clockwise until the horizon is level for some idea of it)
You won't be getting a Fleming or a Nordy but you're not paying for one.
Mine is hull #156 and is a 2005.

Good luck with whichever boat you pursue,
MJ

 

[sunchaser]

The DF 48 is extremely easy to board from either side or stern. Full walk around decks are at dock height similar to accessing a Fleming. But finding one, like many DFs, is difficult as the good ones often sell quickly or are never listed.