Defining a boats true "Value"

[N4061]

Just in case there are enough boating related items to debate I thought it would be interesting to get the forum's view on a boats "value" and how people define such and elusive term. As we continue our search for our next boat I'm finding myself exploring what is a true value boat versus possibly something that is well known, purchased without the regard to price and then discarded as a used up vacation. We are not that wealthy to fall into this category and for us every decision and dollar spent needs to be examined.

So last week I flew up to Seattle and took a boat out for a sea-trial. It was a picture perfect day with temperatures in the 80's and clear blue skies. Winds were dead calm resulting in less then favorable sea conditions for a real test run. I would love to spend a summer boating in this part of the country, but I digressing so lets get back on point. I selected this particular boat for a number of reasons including what I felt was a great "value". How I got to my value determination was based upon the following:

1. Passing the 90% rule - in summary the boat meets our needs related to how we actually plan to use the boat 90% of the time. To get to this point one must leave the dreaming phase of boat purchasing behind and focus on reality.
2. The cost of the boat is in proportion to its quality and reputation
3. Resale of the boat exceeds its competition. This is critical for us since for some reason we seem to keep having to buy new boats.
4. The company selling the boat has a proven track record of standing up behind its product

While the above may appear simple there is a lot that goes into each category but that's a discussion for another day. So, what do you consider value in your boat purchase?

John T.

N4050 - Former Owner
N4061 - Former Owner
N3522 - Former Owner
Dreaming about our next boat.......

 

[O C Diver]

I'm a simple man.

Value in a boat works as follows:

1. You love the boat, and think it fills your needs.
2. You like it better than your money.

I don't finance toys which is what boats are. They are a depreciating asset with a ridiculous carrying cost. Simply, I had to like it better than my hard earned money. When the money comes out of your investments as opposed to a loan, only then will you have decided what the true value of a particular boat is.

That's how I see it anyway.

Ted

 

[CPseudonym]

So, what do you consider value in your boat purchase?

Bang for the buck. I'm cheap and our needs are few.

Value is a moving target chased like a rabbit through a forest. If I'm satisfied with the product placed before me, am willing to hand over my money I consider it a "good value". Others may disagree.

You don't lose money on boats you don't sell if they're otherwise fundamentally sound and you're actively using them. Boat money is play money, make sure it's fun.

 

[Rambler]

Do you get more joy out of using your boat than having that amount of money in the bank earning interest.

 

[Moonstruck]

Do you get more joy out of using your boat than having that amount of money in the bank earning interest.

Boats have been relatively cheap, and interest rates have been relatively low. Seems like a good time for buying a boat.

 

[Ronald]

I believe when you buy a boat, don't buy a name, buy a previous owner. If they have treated the boat like you would have treated it, then you will most likely be getting a good boat. Boats are not great money investments, however I have bought well taken care of boats, done the same, and not lost tons of money. The small amount I did lose, I marked up to cheap entertainment.

 

[markpierce]

Do you get more joy out of using your boat than having that amount of money in the bank earning interest.

Money depreciates (inflation) too, many times more than bank interest.

 

[klee wyck]

Interesting question for sure, but my instinct suggests that applying reason or quantitative analysis to boat buying or boat ownership may not end well. When I tried the reasoned approach, it just kept me from buying a boat until I just admitted that nothing about it made sense and did it anyway. For the OP it may be different because he has sold past boats and can do the math on total cost of ownership from buying through upkeep and improvements less price when he sold divided by total hours of use/enjoyment and then try to judge value and predict the same on the next boat. I am pretty sure that is a number I do not want to know. Luckily, while I have bought three boats in my life, I never have sold one, so the math is not possible. The first, which was a small boat that I have done a lot of fishing, hunting, and screwing around in may be pretty affordable fun, but the second, an aluminum welded river jet sled, and the third (in the avatar) are going to be pretty depressing numbers in terms of cost per hour of fun. For me, best to not spend much time thinking about it and just enjoy the experiences as long as I can get by without the money I spend boating. The last boat is unique enough that I had to consider the money I paid for it gone the minute I bought it. Resale may or may not go well. Transaction costs are very high for these sorts of purchases anyway so some large hit is inevitable. Buying one we intended to own and use and enjoy for quite a while was one of the main goals.
The way I explain it goes like this: For thirty some years I had been prudent and reasonable, I took one day off to buy Klee Wyck. It is working out just fine.

 

[FF]

Money depreciates (inflation) too, many times more than bank interest.

Usually true , but with an added 12 T in US debt and another 6T in Fed reserve QE debt , our gov (and most of Euroland) is having a hard time getting inflation to 2% where the cruelest tax of all in not noticed by the sheeple.

My concept is always to view what the round trip will cost , before a purchase.

Round trip is cost to purchase , repair, and then sell. Zero would be grand!

Dockage , operating expenses and electric toys are not counted.

 

[Tom.B]

I believe when you buy a boat, don't buy a name, buy a previous owner. If they have treated the boat like you would have treated it, then you will most likely be getting a good boat. Boats are not great money investments, however I have bought well taken care of boats, done the same, and not lost tons of money. The small amount I did lose, I marked up to cheap entertainment.

Very astute observation. Having just sold our wonderful Skinny Dippin', our price was quite a bit higher than other boats of the exact same brand (much to the dismay of a couple of brokers), but about right for other boats of different, and perhaps considered "more desirable makes of trawlers. However, having spent so much time, effort, and money with upkeep and upgrades, raised, what we considered to be the "value" of her. Therefore, we found a buyer who (we hope) saw that "value" and paid for it.

I have to agree. Value is what YOU think it is and not always what others (or a market analyst) may think it is. For boats, "market value" is broker double-talk. Sure, you can't ignore it, but real value is what a buyer sees and will plop down their money for.

 

[refugio]

Many years back I created a spreadsheet to calculate the cash (and after-tax) monthly cost of houses, boats, and cars. Quite a few variables, including obvious ones like appreciation (always negative for the fun things!) and opportunity cost of the investment (has been higher, now close to zero), tax implications, et cetera. I have separate lines for maintenance and improvements (my most recently disposed of car was a Boxster with numerous upgrades, but there's not much I feel like doing with the two Lexus cars we have now). I also separate out usage - that's a completely different part of our budget.

Anyway, when I calculated that (round numbers) our house cost about $1.5k/mo net (somewhat higher cash with mortgage) compared to my boat at around $800/mo (net and cash close to the same), the recently departed Boxster at $250/mo (ditto), a contemplated $200k cabin in a place where we already own some land at around $500/mo, and a hypothetical new Porsche that I didn't actually plan out but might cost $1k/mo as a guess - all of this balanced against how much longer I will have to work to pay for these expenses - it quickly became clear which items were worth (to me) that trade off.

 

[mattkab]

I don't look at value in a boat as strictly monetary, though it is a part of it.

We find we have great value in our boat as a vacation home. As such, a trawler suits our use perfectly, as it has many of the amenities a waterfront condo would have, at a fraction of the cost. Plus, if we get tired of the view, we can move it.

As for your determination, I agree with #1 entirely. 90% of our use is daytrips or being a dock queen in our own slip. As such, comfort at the dock is important, so we have a wide cabin, a substantial cockpit, and since we're in Seattle for longer than just the summer, covered side decks.

#2 & #3 sound like you are looking at the boat as an investment. It's difficult, IMO, to consider a boat an investment of any quality, and it would not be part of my criteria. I would just look for a boat you like that can be purchased at or just below current market rate.

#4 Is also not part of my criteria, in that I have never gone back to the original manufacturer for support on my vessels. That said, I have owned very common brands on purpose -- It's generally easy to find a part for a Catalina or a Bayliner. If it's a custom build, I would look very carefully at the systems installed and make sure they are common and that it's easy to find replacement parts.

I would add other criteria to the list that we consider "value":

#A: Fuel Economy. I'm not talking about the difference between 1.2GPH and 2.1GPH... I'm talking about the $600 fuel bill for the WEEKEND on my 28' Bayliner, vs the $300 fuel bill for my current trawler for the YEAR. It's changed how we look at going on boat trips.

#B: Creature Comforts. Well planned layout in the length we were looking for. A good heater. An autopilot. Radar. Easy access to machinery. These were the things I saw in our current boat that made the decision to switch easy.

#C: Market price. We purchased our boat for way below market, as it was a friend of a friend, and they didn't want to go through the process of listing it and what not. It was a win-win for both of us in the end. If I can find a similar deal, I'd do it again -- the trick is not to be on a timeframe at all. If the boat shows up for us tomorrow or in 4 years, we hope to be ready to jump at the opportunity.

 

[CPseudonym]

If I can find a similar deal, I'd do it again -- the trick is not to be on a timeframe at all. If the boat shows up for us tomorrow or in 4 years, we hope to be ready to jump at the opportunity.

No time frame at all and let the boat come to you... Excellent plan.

I kept trying to force the issue because my patience was wearing thin looking. Was also looking at boats about 10' longer than we bought.

While out chasing wild geese one weekend I stopped at a marina to get directions and saw "our" boat(yes it called out to me) sitting at the dock. 1 week later it was mine. No regrets.

Every time I leave it at the dock I look over my shoulder and think, "I can't wait to get back."

 

[BandB]

ZERO or PRICELESS

Value is an interesting word. One definition is financial worth. If you try to look at a boat in a dollars and cents way it will never pass.

But if it's the boat's usefulness and the pleasure it brings to us, it's priceless. In many ways, it's what we live for, it's what we work all those years for, it's the fulfillment of a dream. It's worth every dollar we put in plus some.

One of my critique's of today's society is that we don't put enough value on happiness and pleasure. Not enough on family and friends. Too much on money. Well, money itself is what is truly valueless. Look at a dollar bill. Just a piece of paper. But it's value is what it gets you, what it allows you to do. Boats are what turn that money to true value.

 

[markpierce]

It isn't rational. So don't worry about it. Pleasure/return-on-investment can't be calculated until you've spent the money. If it wasn't worth it, you've wasted your money. It's as simple as that.

 

[Northern Spy]

ZERO or PRICELESS

One of my critique's of today's society is that we don't put enough value on happiness and pleasure. Not enough on family and friends. Too much on money. Well, money itself is what is truly valueless. Look at a dollar bill. Just a piece of paper. But it's value is what it gets you, what it allows you to do. Boats are what turn that money to true value.

It isn't rational. So don't worry about it. Pleasure/return-on-investment can't be calculated until you've spent the money. If it wasn't worth it, you've wasted your money. It's as simple as that.

Yup...

and yup...

 

[Moonstruck]

Every time I leave it at the dock I look over my shoulder and think, "I can't wait to get back."

Lou asked me one time if I had ever left the boat because I wanted to leave. My answer was an unequivocal, "no". I actually feel more at home on my boat that anywhere else.

 

[markpierce]

Yeah, like when will the boatwork (routine maintenance: bottom treatment, engine maintenance, paint/rust work, yadda, yadda) be completed? Before the end of the month, hopefully.

 

[Northern Spy]

Lou asked me one time if I had ever left the boat because I wanted to leave. My answer was an unequivocal, "no". I actually feel more at home on my boat that anywhere else.

She was wise to ask the question.

Today I went down to the boat and rigged up my dinghy and then sailed around the harbour. When I left, I left it rigged and in the water, even though I have to fly out for work tomorrow. My wife thought I was silly for leaving it rigged, because I will have to go back down to my boat to put it away this evening.

Little does she know that I WANT to go back down to the boat this evening.

One day, she'll figure it out.

 

[BandB]

She was wise to ask the question.

Today I went down to the boat and rigged up my dinghy and then sailed around the harbour. When I left, I left it rigged and in the water, even though I have to fly out for work tomorrow. My wife thought I was silly for leaving it rigged, because I will have to go back down to my boat to put it away this evening.

Little does she know that I WANT to go back down to the boat this evening.

One day, she'll figure it out.

Wifey B: Oh she knows.....just had to point it out for your reaction. Don't know how long you've been married but she may know you better than you know yourself....

 

[healhustler]

I'm a simple man. Value in a boat works as follows:

1. You love the boat, and think it fills your needs.
2. You like it better than your money.

I don't finance toys which is what boats are. They are a depreciating asset with a ridiculous carrying cost. Simply, I had to like it better than my hard earned money. When the money comes out of your investments as opposed to a loan, only then will you have decided what the true value of a particular boat is.

Ted

As opposed to Ted above, being a simple man, I've been accused of being a complicated man. In spite of this, I see it the way he does.

 

[cappy208]

For me/us the value was more related to the realization that the next 10 years of grand kids, and being young enough to afford the boat outweighed the worries about the outlay. We shopped for 2.5 years narrowing down the type, then the length, then the brand. Considering the 'brand name' (Grand Banks) and the alternatives made us realize the brand name wasn't worth the extra $$. So we opted for a different brand with a loyal following. Of course, knowing I may have to do an engine rebuild, or repower or a awl grip topside job may be looming effects the price. But I realize that for the next 10 years or so my Grandkids WANT to be with Papa and Nana. This is the time. Now is the moment and the money is secondary. I would hate to hear even 5 years from now: the kids are 'too busy' to want to go with Nana and Papa on the boat. Of course we go other places and do other things.

The ramble is: Sometimes it's not about 'just' the price. It's about what's happening in the rest of your life.

 

[Art]

I've purchased 5 boats (spent years time on many others when young). Two I still own. Made double up on one after owning for one year. Nearly triple up on one after owning for two years. Push on another after owing for many years.

Currently own two. LUV em both! Don't plan to sell. Plan to play with em for many years. Both in Excellent shape when I purchased. Both built Excellently to begin with.

Toys, Toys, Toys. Always fun to have toys! Pleasure boats: Best Toy in the world - IMHO

Happy Boating Daze! - Art

Boats carefully chosen and smartly purchased are not a cost... but rather an
emotional savior and physical conditioner!

 

[dannc]

...
The ramble is: Sometimes it's not about 'just' the price. It's about what's happening in the rest of your life.

We know what boat we want. Life may make a slight change in the choice or prevent us from getting the boat at all, but we can't control those issues...

Right now, it makes NO money sense to have a boat, and if we had a boat, it would negatively impact the boat we want that will allow us to travel as we wish. We have other responsibilities at the moment, so having a boat is out of the question. Chartering is a better choice.

I have seen used boats from the builder we are interested in selling for asking price which was pretty danged close to new list price! We figure once we get the boat it will depreciate in value in spite of the above example. However, looking at what we want to do with the boat and what it will cost, while comparing that cost with trying to do the same thing without a boat, the boat is cheaper.

If The Plan works, we can have our boat to travel as we wish for the remaining good years we will have at that point in our life. Almost certainly, we will have to go back to land as health issues take over, but we will have done, or attempted to accomplish, our dream travel. To fail to try will cause deep regret. If we achieve, the most likely expense will be well worth the cost, and the value will be priceless.

Later,
Dan

 

[cappy208]

And, as we get older 'regret' is a word I rue and try to avoid at all costs! Good luck on your search.

 

[Robster_in_edmonds]

Interesting thread. The OP's original post looked at the financials of a boat' salute, and as many have said there is no financial upside for most of us on boat ownership. In our case, we bought our current boat in a buyer's market from a motivated seller. We should be able to sell it for at least what we paid for it. Moorage is our biggest financial cost, at about $800 per month. Insurance is about $200 per month. Maintenance costs average out at about $300 per month. We could moor the boat for half the current cost or less, but it would be an hour or more away instead of five minutes away, and we would use it a lot less. We use our boat a lot and average about $200 per month on fuel costs.

What do we get out of it? We have made more good friends boating in the last four years than at any other time in our lives. We have had more fun times boating than doing anything else in our lives. We have a beautiful house with a great view but many nights we stay on the boat, at the dock, because we prefer to be on the water.

On a side note we have found that the best bang for the buck upgrade to our boat has been joining a yacht club. The club cruises have taken us to lots of neat destinations with friends to explore with. Casual weekend trips, last-minute get-togethers. If you haven't joined a yacht club you owe it to yourselves to check a few out. Every club I know will host you to a free meal so you can meet their members. You will know when you have found the right club.

To steal from the credit card company's ad campaign, owning a boat: initial investment, 200k; carrying costs, 18k per year; memories, priceless. Absolutely priceless.

 

[BDofMSP]

While we obviously own "a" boat (let's not be silly), it's not our dream boat. But given our work commitments, our location far from convenient access to good cruising, and our lack of experience, we are finding we find much more value in chartering other people's dream boats. Hopefully later our circumstances will allow us to "live the dream", but in the meantime we still get to visit it. To me that's far better than waiting until someday.

 

[cappy208]

To me that's far better than waiting until someday.

Absolutely! You ask a tough question. The 'value' of any of our fine vessels varies with our personal situation, amount of use, (obviously) amount of free cash and most importantly our family. It's not just about the cash outlay.

There's lots if things I would 'love' to acquire. But in all reality, a Porsche, a beachfront condo in Destin, or an AK-47 are neither Grandkid friendly, not are they easy to enjoy with the Grandkids. So my price, use and value is perhaps skewed from someone else's.

If it fits YOUR life, then it's a whole lot more 'affordable' to you.

 

[Art]

Absolutely! You ask a tough question. The 'value' of any of our fine vessels varies with our personal situation, amount of use, (obviously) amount of free cash and most importantly our family. It's not just about the cash outlay.

There's lots if things I would 'love' to acquire. But in all reality, a Porsche, a beachfront condo in Destin, or an AK-47 are neither Grandkid friendly, not are they easy to enjoy with the Grandkids. So my price, use and value is perhaps skewed from someone else's.

If it fits YOUR life, then it's a whole lot more 'affordable' to you.

Well said - - > cappy!!

 

[texasnielsen]

Gotta love this site. So much wisdom. Many, many interesting perspectives (as usual).

The concept of value will always be an individual definition IMO. Although that's not to say we may agree to a specific definition when framed within a certain context. I.e, is the value being expressed from a financial perspective, from a happiness perspective, from a need versus a want, etc.?

Believing that most of us are using discretionary income for the purposes of sustaining our interests in boating, "value" to me as posted by the OP ends up feeling more like being able to justify our participation in this activity.

Since my boat isn't my livelihood nor my primary residence, it's all about the pleasure derived from participating. Be it being a simple or complex man (or woman), we are only here for so many days. Since none of us know when the last day will be upon us, I don't measure my "pleasures" with a significant concern for a return on investment. I do it because it falls with my allocated percentage of discretionary spending, I enjoy it, and I believe as some one else posted, I would like to have as few regrets as possible on "my last day."

I guess it all comes down to whether we're using the word value as a verb or a noun. If I were to start evaluating my pleasures by attempting to assess value from a purely financial decision, it would either lead to analysis paralysis or missing the enjoyment. One person's rationality is another's delusion. There is nothing "rationale" about pleasure boating. We do it because we couldn't imagine life without it. Thus, the "value" to my sanity to immeasurable.