Rufus,
Ski said it better than I could and he makes good points.
I guess you are a pilot, apologies. I would have thought you might have had a more open mind. However you did work for the FAA
We can agree to disagree a bit on this one. There already IS regulation with drones and there are restrictions and limitations. I could argue we just don't need any more government intrusion. We have enough government.
And, no, I'm not suggesting that airline pilots unions endorse anything, nor am I suggestion that you should like them or dislike them anymore than the weedwacker mentioned.
Drones!
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ssobol
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In the past, at least, most underwater "drones" tended to be referred to as "ROVs".
ROV is a better description of most of today's aerial MR devices anyway.
Parks,
Yea, I'm scared with ultralights, too. Not my thing. Loved your story, thanks! You seems to have a lot of interesting stories.
Agree on the risk of drones. Unfortunately, there will always be idiots that fly them... just like cars, boats and planes.
(think I'll go fly my drone today... lets see, where is Rufus's boat?
Seevee,
I worked in an area of the FAA that you probably didn't even know existed....the part that gave you a safe airplane to fly. Flight envelope verification, systems testing, structural and fatigue testing, engine and systems failure testing, emergency procedures, flight deck design and approval, flight and maintenance manual approval. The tech side, not the operations side. I've ridden jump seat twice in my career, and it wasn't to check crew procedures.
Your inference that I, as a pilot, would be exceptionally tolerant of drones is exactly the opposite of what I see in the real world. Pilots understand that the hobbyist drone community is largely populated by individuals without a clue as to aviation rules and operations. And unfortunately, even some pilots don't grasp that these simple four poster drones have not been tested for reliability, failure modes, and flight characteristics following failures. They are a hazard to people and property within a varying sized cone of operation under them. Period...full stop. (Please let us know how your takeoff with one motor inop works for you).
If operators actually followed the associated regulations, they would not be operating these devices in confined/populated areas like marinas, parks, and off their boats when in a slip. It is a fact that they do...routinely...more often than not. I have plenty of photos documenting same.
The testing of the device has been inadequate, the potential hazards brushed under the rug, rules are inadequate, and the enforcement threat is virtually nil. Just the way you seem to like it. I'm not surprised you spent a career fighting safety.
I worked in an area of the FAA that you probably didn't even know existed....the part that gave you a safe airplane to fly. Flight envelope verification, systems testing, structural and fatigue testing, engine and systems failure testing, emergency procedures, flight deck design and approval, flight and maintenance manual approval. The tech side, not the operations side. I've ridden jump seat twice in my career, and it wasn't to check crew procedures.
Your inference that I, as a pilot, would be exceptionally tolerant of drones is exactly the opposite of what I see in the real world. Pilots understand that the hobbyist drone community is largely populated by individuals without a clue as to aviation rules and operations. And unfortunately, even some pilots don't grasp that these simple four poster drones have not been tested for reliability, failure modes, and flight characteristics following failures. They are a hazard to people and property within a varying sized cone of operation under them. Period...full stop. (Please let us know how your takeoff with one motor inop works for you).
If operators actually followed the associated regulations, they would not be operating these devices in confined/populated areas like marinas, parks, and off their boats when in a slip. It is a fact that they do...routinely...more often than not. I have plenty of photos documenting same.
The testing of the device has been inadequate, the potential hazards brushed under the rug, rules are inadequate, and the enforcement threat is virtually nil. Just the way you seem to like it. I'm not surprised you spent a career fighting safety.
BaltimoreLurker
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Doug
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lol!
firstbase
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Because no one wants to secretly peep at some guys cutlass bearing? Doesn't sound like much fun....
caltexflanc
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Shipyards and boat yards use them for inspection in lieu of divers.
Recreationally for fishing and sight seeing. Some boats actually leave the marina and go to cool places to explore. And of course there's always checking the anchor
firstbase
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Yes, I know there are good and fun uses for an underwater drone/ROV. Was just keeping it on the light side as they say. My wife always poo poo's my idea of a drone, under or over water. "DO you really need another toy?..When will you have time...etc." Then I mentioned that one would be very useful for checking for sharks (her absolute greatest fear) where we are anchored. Response turned to "Have you found a drone you like yet?"
I guess it is all about how you approach things....
I guess it is all about how you approach things....
Rufus,
Comments in bold. Again, we can just agree to disagree, and I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. We just have different views.
Now, where is your boat parked?
Love it!
There's a TON of good guys out there for training, and very worth while and very reasonable. Way cheaper than hiring a training capt on a boat.
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C`mon, everyone needs another toy.
firstbase
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Agreed. He who dies with the most toys wins?
Just for fun and because I have way more time than sense I looked up documented drone accidents from 1994 through 2016.
Total of 136 reported crashes.
Of these 79 were military/contractors.
57 were the result of flights by civilian/private citizens.
Of these 57 crashes 5 involved striking a human.
3 of these 5 caused injury. The most severe was a woman being knocked unconscious and a baby struck in a stroller, bruise on head.
Of the civilian related group:
4 were in downtown New York City/San Francisco. Flying a drone in Manhattan, probably a bad idea.
3 involved someone trying to get drugs and cell phones into a prison.
3 involved sports stadiums with game going on.
2 hit power lines causing outages.
2 caused grass fires.
2 were at or near the White House
1 was caused by a hawk attack.
Now for my Annual Awards:
The Show Must Go On Award
9/26/2016 A small UAV flew into the head of performer Stanley Howse, a member of Bones Thugs-N-Harmony, at the High Life music festival at the San Bernardino County Fairgrounds, Victorville CA. He was able to continue.
Way To Kill My Drone Buzz Award
11/23/2016 A man searching for his small UAV, which had crashed in some woods near his home, found human remains near Ormond Beach, FL.
Del Boca Vista Phase III Seinfeld Award
4/3/2016 A small UAV crashed into the glass door to a balcony on the 17th floor of an oceanfront condominium building in Marco Island, Florida. The incident triggered a discussion of the need to ban drones, though no immediate action was taken.
I Hate When That Happens Award (TIE)
10/19/2015 A small UAV crash-landed on the roof of the Port St. Lucie police department in Florida. A hobbyist flying it nearby lost control of the craft.
8/22/2015 A small UAV crash-landed on the roof of the Lexington Financial Building, the tallest high-rise in downtown Lexington, KY. Security refused to allow the operator to retrieve it.
The O C Diver / leeman / Sugardog / Flywright / markpierce / psneeld / Rufus Award
5/23/2015 A man in Lake Havasu City, Arizona hit a low-flying UAV with a t-shirt, causing it to crash. He was charged with criminal damage.
No Matter What Happens, Get The Video Award
10/7/2015 A small UAV crashed in a park in Sunnyvale California, starting a small grass fire. The operators shot video of the fire from a second UAV as they called the fire department.
Takes A Licking, Keeps On Ticking Award
6/6/2015 A small UAV crashed in Folsom Lake in California, sinking to the bottom and continuing to shoot video. It was found by a vacationer two months later.
The Show Must Go On Award
9/26/2016 A small UAV flew into the head of performer Stanley Howse, a member of Bones Thugs-N-Harmony, at the High Life music festival at the San Bernardino County Fairgrounds, Victorville CA. He was able to continue.
Big Brother Is Watching Award
6/19/2015 A small UAV hovered near a woman sitting at an outdoor table at a bar in Tampa, Florida. It followed her as she left and crashed into her car's roof.
Just for fun and because I have way more time than sense I looked up documented drone accidents from 1994 through 2016.
Total of 136 reported crashes.
Of these 79 were military/contractors.
57 were the result of flights by civilian/private citizens.
Of these 57 crashes 5 involved striking a human.
3 of these 5 caused injury. The most severe was a woman being knocked unconscious and a baby struck in a stroller, bruise on head.
Of the civilian related group:
4 were in downtown New York City/San Francisco. Flying a drone in Manhattan, probably a bad idea.
3 involved someone trying to get drugs and cell phones into a prison.
3 involved sports stadiums with game going on.
2 hit power lines causing outages.
2 caused grass fires.
2 were at or near the White House
1 was caused by a hawk attack.
Now for my Annual Awards:
The Show Must Go On Award
9/26/2016 A small UAV flew into the head of performer Stanley Howse, a member of Bones Thugs-N-Harmony, at the High Life music festival at the San Bernardino County Fairgrounds, Victorville CA. He was able to continue.
Way To Kill My Drone Buzz Award
11/23/2016 A man searching for his small UAV, which had crashed in some woods near his home, found human remains near Ormond Beach, FL.
Del Boca Vista Phase III Seinfeld Award
4/3/2016 A small UAV crashed into the glass door to a balcony on the 17th floor of an oceanfront condominium building in Marco Island, Florida. The incident triggered a discussion of the need to ban drones, though no immediate action was taken.
I Hate When That Happens Award (TIE)
10/19/2015 A small UAV crash-landed on the roof of the Port St. Lucie police department in Florida. A hobbyist flying it nearby lost control of the craft.
8/22/2015 A small UAV crash-landed on the roof of the Lexington Financial Building, the tallest high-rise in downtown Lexington, KY. Security refused to allow the operator to retrieve it.
The O C Diver / leeman / Sugardog / Flywright / markpierce / psneeld / Rufus Award
5/23/2015 A man in Lake Havasu City, Arizona hit a low-flying UAV with a t-shirt, causing it to crash. He was charged with criminal damage.
No Matter What Happens, Get The Video Award
10/7/2015 A small UAV crashed in a park in Sunnyvale California, starting a small grass fire. The operators shot video of the fire from a second UAV as they called the fire department.
Takes A Licking, Keeps On Ticking Award
6/6/2015 A small UAV crashed in Folsom Lake in California, sinking to the bottom and continuing to shoot video. It was found by a vacationer two months later.
The Show Must Go On Award
9/26/2016 A small UAV flew into the head of performer Stanley Howse, a member of Bones Thugs-N-Harmony, at the High Life music festival at the San Bernardino County Fairgrounds, Victorville CA. He was able to continue.
Big Brother Is Watching Award
6/19/2015 A small UAV hovered near a woman sitting at an outdoor table at a bar in Tampa, Florida. It followed her as she left and crashed into her car's roof.
dhays
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I missed this thread and haven't bothered to read it all the way through. Here are my replies to the various comments/questions.
I have a DJI Mavic Pro.
I have launched and caught it by hand from my boat. I have also launched and landed on my fly-bridge deck.
I use Cyberlink Director software for editing.
My Drone is registered with the FAA, it was done before the court case that eliminated it. I don't know, but assume that my registration will still be good under the new law.
The Mavic is easy to fly. I did get concerned once when I flew it too far away from the boat, over a mountain ridge, and over a fresh water lake. I then lost video connection with the drone and was flying blind. I was able to climb to my max altitude setting (not very high on a US based drone) to get over the trees and head back in my general direction. I then recovered signal and the rest of the flight was uneventful. This was in a very remote area.
The Mavic is very quiet. I can barely hear once it is at about 15-20m high. It is really hard to see when it is in the air. I also try to be very, very considerate so as not to bother other boaters in the area. If someone on a boat or dinghy points at the drone, I figure I have screwed up. I have sent digital photos to the owners of boats whom I have encountered. Most folks like a nice aerial shot of their boat.
I don't use the drone as much as I initially imagined I would. There are many times and circumstances where I would like to have drone footage, but those are also many of the same times that everyone on board needs to be attending to the task of driving the boat, navigating, watching for traffic etc....
I added the Mavic to my homeowners insurance policy as a rider, along with my Go-Pro. They will replace it if it is damaged, lost, or stolen.
I have a DJI Mavic Pro.
I have launched and caught it by hand from my boat. I have also launched and landed on my fly-bridge deck.
I use Cyberlink Director software for editing.
My Drone is registered with the FAA, it was done before the court case that eliminated it. I don't know, but assume that my registration will still be good under the new law.
The Mavic is easy to fly. I did get concerned once when I flew it too far away from the boat, over a mountain ridge, and over a fresh water lake. I then lost video connection with the drone and was flying blind. I was able to climb to my max altitude setting (not very high on a US based drone) to get over the trees and head back in my general direction. I then recovered signal and the rest of the flight was uneventful. This was in a very remote area.
The Mavic is very quiet. I can barely hear once it is at about 15-20m high. It is really hard to see when it is in the air. I also try to be very, very considerate so as not to bother other boaters in the area. If someone on a boat or dinghy points at the drone, I figure I have screwed up. I have sent digital photos to the owners of boats whom I have encountered. Most folks like a nice aerial shot of their boat.
I don't use the drone as much as I initially imagined I would. There are many times and circumstances where I would like to have drone footage, but those are also many of the same times that everyone on board needs to be attending to the task of driving the boat, navigating, watching for traffic etc....
I added the Mavic to my homeowners insurance policy as a rider, along with my Go-Pro. They will replace it if it is damaged, lost, or stolen.
Rufus,
Comments in bold. Again, we can just agree to disagree, and I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. We just have different views.
Now, where is your boat parked?
I didn't say certify drones to Airline standards...you did. I'd be happy with clear definition of the trajectory cone under the device when one of these commonly occurring failures takes place. That would define the radius operators should maintain from people and property on the ground (or on the water). Highly unlikely that you'd be able to launch and recover from a boat in a densely packed marina. As you know, just because the regulation doesn't specifically say you can't launch from a boat doesn't mean the general safety rules don't preclude it. Further, having a spouse or kid or girlfriend or boyfriend grab/hold these things on launch/recovery is outside the safety guidelines in the community based RC operating guidelines (required by the regulation).
Regarding the "statistics" listed in the firstbase post above, there is no requirement to report hobby drone accidents/incidents, so the numbers are meaningless. That said, the description of accidents do fully make my point...if you're operating your drone outside the "failure cone" under the device, none of these impacts with people and property would have occurred. That's the intent of the regulations....which you and the majority of drone operators conveniently choose to ignore.
Your attitude regarding the aviation safety infrastructure is clearly illustrated in your post#92. Your familiarity with drone regulations was clearly illustrated by your confusion regarding drone registration.
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ROFL! Funny stuff there...
The question is really for you. How close can you operate to my boat and assure that your drone won't impact it when one of your motors or a propeller fails? Judging from videos I've seen, it's farther than you or most operators think.
psneeld
Guru
My comfort zone is mine.
I have been well trained that different cultures may invade my personal space due to cultural differences....and how to calmly deal with the situation.
A drone has no culture......therefore, if I feel a drone is looking at me like the normal public is...no big deal....
If the drone is invading my personal space or "spying/peeping".....you definitely dont want to be the drone, and probably not the operator.
Normally I dont like confrontation past aggressive debate...but get me on a step and I have training that you really wish I hadnt.
And thats not a macho approach....more like a black ops approach....
I have been well trained that different cultures may invade my personal space due to cultural differences....and how to calmly deal with the situation.
A drone has no culture......therefore, if I feel a drone is looking at me like the normal public is...no big deal....
If the drone is invading my personal space or "spying/peeping".....you definitely dont want to be the drone, and probably not the operator.
Normally I dont like confrontation past aggressive debate...but get me on a step and I have training that you really wish I hadnt.
And thats not a macho approach....more like a black ops approach....
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dhays
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As with most things related to social interactions, it is best to try not to be excessively annoying nor easily annoyed. My hunch is that most here basically try to follow those tenants in most any boating endeavors.
As a drone operator, I try to not be annoying at all.
As a drone operator, I try to not be annoying at all.
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My comfort zone is mine.
I have been well trained that different cultures may invade my personal space due to cultural differences....and how to calmly deal with the situation.
A drone has no culture......therefore, if I feel a drone is looking at me like the normal public is...no big deal....
If the drone is invading my personal space or "spying/peeping".....you definitely dont want to be the drone, and probably not the operator.
Normally I dont like confrontation past aggressive debate...but get me on a step and I have training that you really wish I hadnt.
And thats not a macho approach....more like a black ops approach....
Those skills might come in very handy in Ft. Pierce! I also heard a rumor that there will be a drone there.
dhays,
Agreed, drone operators need to be aware of others feelings. But there's a TON of things worse than a drone: barking dogs, weed hackers and lawnmowers, spam calls, loud trucks and cars, ambulances and fire trucks, loud music and even soft music if not your tunes, and even planes, airliners and helicopters, etc., etc.
For now, a drone can fly over your house or boat, even as low as 10 feet, legally and you can't do much about it. They can fly in any legal airspace. But there's a lot they can't normally fly in, which includes within 5 miles of airports, class B, C, and D airspace, most national parks, stadiums with games going on, power plants and more. Also within 30 mile of wherever the president is.
Now, getting back to the OP original message. I think they are a great way to get some great pictures and feel that operating off a boat is doable, fun and not evasive to others, even in some marinas.
Try one, you'll like it.
menzies
Guru
Actually anything under 500 feet over private property without prior approval is likely a high risk of being illegal, especially if the property owner can prove that you are interrupting his use of the property.
firstbase
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And how close can you operate your boat and assure your boat won't impact others around when your motors, props or steering fail? If you follow your own guideline you shouldn't be allowed to back into a marina slip.
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firstbase
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Yep, as meaningless as any other statistic or poll. Better termed a representative sampling from police departments nationwide. Although not comprehensive it seems to show that death, destruction and maiming of children may not be occurring at the alarming rate you seem to claim. They certainly don't prove your point. We going to regulate anything and everything that could possibly cause a problem or injur someone? Um, OK. Pencils are pointy and can injure someone. Regulate them.
I will say that you lost me with "That's the intent of the regulations....which you and the majority of drone operators conveniently choose to ignore." That's just not true.
There are a whole lot of things on my worry list above being injured or spied on by a drone.
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twistedtree
Guru
Yes, I actually think this is very clearly the case, though it appears nobody has tested it in the context of drones. Wikipedia has a good article on airspace rights. In a nut shell:
- The land owner owns below the surface to the center of the earth, and above to the heavens.
- Above 500' in populated areas, and above 365' in rural areas, the public has a right of way, though regulated by the FAA. This is like a sidewalk across your property. You may own it, but there is a public right of passage across it.
- Below those levels, the land owner has full rights and there is no public right of way. This was established by the Supreme Court in 1946 in the context or air travel. It has also been well established that so-called overhangs into that lower air space are also a violation of the land owner's rights. This was established in cities where things are packed close together, and where there can be significant value in building up since you can't build out. So for example, a balcony that hangs out over the property line would be a violation, as is a tree that hangs over the line, and the owner has a right to remove them.
So unless something new has happened that grants a right of way between zero and 365/500', I think this is black and white, very well established case law.
And keep in mind that FAA operating rules below 500' does NOT grant a right of way. It just says how you need to operate there.
The "guideline" regarding operation of hobby drones is not mine, it's federal law. Boats that are operated by an on-board human are not regulated, in large part because the operator is at the controls and can presumably compensate for a malfunction or failure. I believe we all agree that drone operators cannot. I would expect that if drone boats become mainstream, they will have restrictions to account for failure modes. By the way, a competency test for boat operators is a good idea in my view.
Pencils don't fall out of the sky and run into people when they break. I know you and others think it's OK to slam the occasional drone into people or property. The FAA does not. You are regulated accordingly. The debate over whether hobby drones should be regulated took place years ago. The current debate is whether even more stringent regulation is required. Believe me, it's far from over. And the more you antagonize the public with risky operations, the worse it will be for hobby drones.
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