Electric Boats
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boathealer
Guru
That's what I would do with the TT35 if I were to buy one of those.
Fletcher500
Guru
Interesting to see how the clean energy boats develop. I was on a Hybrid at a boat show last year.
With that said, A single, Tier 3 diesel is also fairly green.
With that said, A single, Tier 3 diesel is also fairly green.
Hinckley is introducing the Dasher. More like a limo boat or oversized tender. It's 28'. They're showing it at FLIBS. The reports I've gotten have been mostly, "Why?" Not bad for the canals and ICW. Range at 8-9 knots is 35 nm and at 20-22 knots is 20-22 nm.
And the transom I don't like on it or any other boat.
Benthic2
Guru
I would not bet on them selling a lot of them. I suppose you could have them as the tender to your mega yacht, but that seems like such a small market.
Great transom for landing a fish, I guess...or diving.....not typical Hinkley-ish activities though. A following sea is going to get the captain's $500 Italian leather loafters all wet.
Hinkley has made so many models that are just the pinacle of beauty afloat that I guess they can afford a miss once in a while. Their picnic boat is, for me, the most beautiful boat ever.
Great transom for landing a fish, I guess...or diving.....not typical Hinkley-ish activities though. A following sea is going to get the captain's $500 Italian leather loafters all wet.
Hinkley has made so many models that are just the pinacle of beauty afloat that I guess they can afford a miss once in a while. Their picnic boat is, for me, the most beautiful boat ever.
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Something tells me one of their customers asked for it. They may sell one if that's the case. I could see it for cruising the Fort Lauderdale Canals, the same thing some have bought Duffy's to do. I'm sure it fits a need, but I haven't identified what need yet.
Oh, and one point too about the transom. The boat is very noisy as a result when one of the beauties of electric is quiet. But not quiet when you're hearing your wake.
Where Mega Yachts have to anchor often you need a seaworthy tender to carry people to and from. In that size range you can buy a lot more boat than it is.
Benthic2
Guru
The upside is the more fully electric boats that hit the market....the better off the consure is. The first electric cars weren't great...but they were stepping stones to better vehicles. I'm hoping e-boat evolution is the same way.
I surprised they don't have some sort of swim platform that folds up to a transom like a pickup truck tailgate.
Its probably a great boat, but the asthetics are all wrong for me. I am usually a practical guy and prefer function over form....but Hinkleys, with the pronounced tumblehome and sloped sheerline reach me on some visceral level that I can't explain, and this boat doesn't have that. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm sure someone will love it.
I surprised they don't have some sort of swim platform that folds up to a transom like a pickup truck tailgate.
Its probably a great boat, but the asthetics are all wrong for me. I am usually a practical guy and prefer function over form....but Hinkleys, with the pronounced tumblehome and sloped sheerline reach me on some visceral level that I can't explain, and this boat doesn't have that. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm sure someone will love it.
FF
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"I surprised they don't have some sort of swim platform that folds up to a transom like a pickup truck tailgate."
I have always thought the tailgate would make a great platform to access the boat , and a very simple method of carrying the dink, just drive it up into the cockpit .
On an electric boat with limited range and speed the dink pushing could be the second engine to operate between daily solar charges.
I have always thought the tailgate would make a great platform to access the boat , and a very simple method of carrying the dink, just drive it up into the cockpit .
On an electric boat with limited range and speed the dink pushing could be the second engine to operate between daily solar charges.
markpierce
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Where's the gotta-have-to-have pilothouse?! ... Is it just a sunny-day, day-boat or does it have lots of batteries?
markpierce
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I much prefer the 1960-70s sailboat designs from Hinckley. The company has definitely devolved (or is it their anticipated customers?).
markpierce
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Watching a boat's wake can be stupifying. But don't pass out and drop through the absent transom.
Let's do some engineering analysis on that design:
Looks like there are 18 solar panels on that boat and lets be generous and call them 300 watts each. So at lower latitudes, midday in the summer those panels will produce 18*300 = 5,400 watts. But on average for a six hour day of cruising from 10:00 to 4:00 they will produce a bit more than half of that or 3,000 watts.
That 3,000 watts with a very efficient motor will produce a bit more than 3 hp. I have a three hp outboard. I suspect it will push that 45' hull at a couple of knots at best. The electric motor will be more efficient at propulsion than my outboard, so let's call it three knots.
Solar powered boats have crossed the Atlantic, but one I am familiar with, the Sun 21, is a 42' catamaran which has double the panel area of the one under discussion and weighs about half. It averaged 5 kts (during daylight of course) on the crossing.
So solar powered boats might work, but they need to be efficient and light weight cats or tris to do it. Not this normal looking monohull.
David
A concept isn't it? Not a real boat having been built?
Nomad Willy
Guru
Sure it’s the future ..
Well maybe only 99% sure.
A surprising fuel source may step in and displace both diesel and electric.
But not likely.
Most seem to think e this and e that is either here or right around the corner. I disagree. E power for boats and cars exists today but not in a cost effective way. I don’t think people buy Toyota Prius’s to save fuel money on fuel. I don’t think they do save money on fuel.
People buy e things as a political and/or social expression. The Tesla car is a good example. People want to be seen “leading the way” for “other people” because they see themselves as leaders. There’s a bit of criticism in my opinion and there probably are some e things that are cost effective but very few IMO.
I think diesel, gasoline and others like propane and natural gas will still be our prime movers for several decades or more. In the 60’s we thought we’d have regular flights back and forth between outposts on the moon and Mars. Takes time. So will a power revolution.
Well maybe only 99% sure.
A surprising fuel source may step in and displace both diesel and electric.
But not likely.
Most seem to think e this and e that is either here or right around the corner. I disagree. E power for boats and cars exists today but not in a cost effective way. I don’t think people buy Toyota Prius’s to save fuel money on fuel. I don’t think they do save money on fuel.
People buy e things as a political and/or social expression. The Tesla car is a good example. People want to be seen “leading the way” for “other people” because they see themselves as leaders. There’s a bit of criticism in my opinion and there probably are some e things that are cost effective but very few IMO.
I think diesel, gasoline and others like propane and natural gas will still be our prime movers for several decades or more. In the 60’s we thought we’d have regular flights back and forth between outposts on the moon and Mars. Takes time. So will a power revolution.
OP
OP
Bob Cofer
Guru
The world is flat, automobiles will never replace horses, the speed of sound is absolute, mankind cannot live in space...you can’t start a journey without the first step. Maybe this will work and maybe it won’t, going to be fun to watch.
Eric:
Yes, you are right. But different people have different motivations.
We have two cars: one a practical mid size SUV that will tow our camper nicely as well as carry big stuff from the big box store. But last year we bought a convertible Mini for fun. We drive it around town and rarely go more than 30 miles from home. That profile is perfect for a plug in electric car.
So when that one wears out (or I crash it more likely) I would consider the new Tesla Model 3 for about $35,000 before incentives. After incentives (if this crazy tax bill doesn't pass or otherwise gets eliminated) it will cost the same as the Mini. And it is a really nice looking car.
So lets compare fuel cost for the Mini and the Tesla. We used the Mini for 8,000 miles this past year and averaged 35 MPG. Not bad. So gas cost about $600 which in the grand scheme of things isn't so much.
Figuring cost of recharging at home is a little more difficult, but let me give it a try. Our Mini averaged 35 MPG at an average speed of 35 MPH (those electronics are good for something!!), so it burned 1 gallon per hour. Since most gasoline engines make about 12 hp per gph of fuel that means it was making 12 hp on average for one year.
So, lets assume 15 for the Tesla as it is a little heavier (but it is more aerodynamic than the Mini). The theoretical (no efficiency adjustments, bear with me for later) power requirement is then (15*.745)*(8000/35)= 2,600 KWH all supplied from my home's electrical system. Figuring efficiency is a little tougher. Let's assume that the charging system is 95% efficient; it takes 100 watt hours of charging to add 90 watt hours to the battery (Peukert's factor applied to lithium batteries); and that the motor is 85% efficient. So multiplying all of those factors through gives a gross of 3,800 watt hours.
At our house we pay the second highest KW cost in the country, about 18 cents/KW, so that much power will cost me $684 each year, a bit more than gas for the Mini. Where we used to live would cost about $400 per year.
Who knows what the maintenance requirements will be. I suspect Tesla offers a maintenance/warranty program for five years. We will see how long their batteries last. I wouldn't count on anything more than ten years. I can't imagine the electric motor failing, but electronics sure can. But so can those in the Mini. So lets call maintenance a wash.
So the new Tesla does seem competitive with the MIni for short range driving.
Does it save the planet? Well probably some. Most power is now made in the US from natural gas with a cogeneration cycle that turns 45-50% of the energy in the gas to KWs and produces 20% less CO2 than equivalent liquid fuels. But then you have all of the efficiency factors above to add in. As a wild ass calculation, the overall cycle is .45*.95*.9*.85 = 33% efficient. That is better than a gasoline engine which is in the mid 20s plus the CO2 production benefit of 20%.
So yes I would consider buying a Tesla for $28,000 net, pay about the same for electricity as gasoline, save about 30-40% of the CO2 I would otherwise dump in the atmosphere and have a very nice looking car to impress the neighbors with.
But an electric boat?? Not to cruise in. But maybe for the same operating profile as the Tesla above- putting around within 5 miles of the marina. Duffy sells them for that purpose.
David
Yes, you are right. But different people have different motivations.
We have two cars: one a practical mid size SUV that will tow our camper nicely as well as carry big stuff from the big box store. But last year we bought a convertible Mini for fun. We drive it around town and rarely go more than 30 miles from home. That profile is perfect for a plug in electric car.
So when that one wears out (or I crash it more likely) I would consider the new Tesla Model 3 for about $35,000 before incentives. After incentives (if this crazy tax bill doesn't pass or otherwise gets eliminated) it will cost the same as the Mini. And it is a really nice looking car.
So lets compare fuel cost for the Mini and the Tesla. We used the Mini for 8,000 miles this past year and averaged 35 MPG. Not bad. So gas cost about $600 which in the grand scheme of things isn't so much.
Figuring cost of recharging at home is a little more difficult, but let me give it a try. Our Mini averaged 35 MPG at an average speed of 35 MPH (those electronics are good for something!!), so it burned 1 gallon per hour. Since most gasoline engines make about 12 hp per gph of fuel that means it was making 12 hp on average for one year.
So, lets assume 15 for the Tesla as it is a little heavier (but it is more aerodynamic than the Mini). The theoretical (no efficiency adjustments, bear with me for later) power requirement is then (15*.745)*(8000/35)= 2,600 KWH all supplied from my home's electrical system. Figuring efficiency is a little tougher. Let's assume that the charging system is 95% efficient; it takes 100 watt hours of charging to add 90 watt hours to the battery (Peukert's factor applied to lithium batteries); and that the motor is 85% efficient. So multiplying all of those factors through gives a gross of 3,800 watt hours.
At our house we pay the second highest KW cost in the country, about 18 cents/KW, so that much power will cost me $684 each year, a bit more than gas for the Mini. Where we used to live would cost about $400 per year.
Who knows what the maintenance requirements will be. I suspect Tesla offers a maintenance/warranty program for five years. We will see how long their batteries last. I wouldn't count on anything more than ten years. I can't imagine the electric motor failing, but electronics sure can. But so can those in the Mini. So lets call maintenance a wash.
So the new Tesla does seem competitive with the MIni for short range driving.
Does it save the planet? Well probably some. Most power is now made in the US from natural gas with a cogeneration cycle that turns 45-50% of the energy in the gas to KWs and produces 20% less CO2 than equivalent liquid fuels. But then you have all of the efficiency factors above to add in. As a wild ass calculation, the overall cycle is .45*.95*.9*.85 = 33% efficient. That is better than a gasoline engine which is in the mid 20s plus the CO2 production benefit of 20%.
So yes I would consider buying a Tesla for $28,000 net, pay about the same for electricity as gasoline, save about 30-40% of the CO2 I would otherwise dump in the atmosphere and have a very nice looking car to impress the neighbors with.
But an electric boat?? Not to cruise in. But maybe for the same operating profile as the Tesla above- putting around within 5 miles of the marina. Duffy sells them for that purpose.
David
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Greenline has been doing this hull form with hybrid power since about 2009, plus someone asked about a "tailgate"; Greenline has this too, you can see it operate partway into the video of the Greenline 40, that is if you can tear your eyes away from the youngster they've hired to help promote the product in the video
We actually looked at these at a couple boat shows but we weren't ready to make this leap. One scary thing with the complex hybrid system is how do you maintain this thing or how big is the repair bill if you can even find a shop that can work on it....?
However I will say we talked to a new buyer of the 40 and (We didn't know this was an option) he had one built without the electric motors and ran strictly on conventional Volvo Penta. He seemed very happy with it and though it was 100% diesel, he claimed because of the hull, it was still extremely efficient...
We actually looked at these at a couple boat shows but we weren't ready to make this leap. One scary thing with the complex hybrid system is how do you maintain this thing or how big is the repair bill if you can even find a shop that can work on it....?
However I will say we talked to a new buyer of the 40 and (We didn't know this was an option) he had one built without the electric motors and ran strictly on conventional Volvo Penta. He seemed very happy with it and though it was 100% diesel, he claimed because of the hull, it was still extremely efficient...
Benthic2
Guru
djmarchand;607100 Solar powered boats have crossed the Atlantic said:
I wrote them and inquired about Hull #1 completion, in broken English they said " 6-8 months after I give a deposit of 25%...
Land and water seem so similar but are so different. I believe every new car built will be either electric or hybrid in a few years. The volume and visability of land vehicles means they come first. It's easy to see the inroads already made. Boats and ships are at least two decades behind. We're not even to the point when Toyota first offered hybrids.
psneeld
Guru
There has been a guy on this forum who has a solar cat that has been operational for years and cruising the keys last I thought....and very happy with it.
Sure solar powered boats are in the future. So are a load of batteries and electric motors that show promise. Making the solar boat a bigger reality.
For now if what most here say is the least expensive part of boating, fuel....... and oil comoanies are promising new finds every year bigger than the middle east.....I am content with a small diesel putting out way less emmissions than lots of other non essential sources.
Sure solar powered boats are in the future. So are a load of batteries and electric motors that show promise. Making the solar boat a bigger reality.
For now if what most here say is the least expensive part of boating, fuel....... and oil comoanies are promising new finds every year bigger than the middle east.....I am content with a small diesel putting out way less emmissions than lots of other non essential sources.
Nomad Willy
Guru
David,
Very well put and as far as I see it good numbers. Ithought the plug-ins would cost about as much as a Cadilac after the electrons were purchased. Would that be much different back east.
I’m a poor man driving an 06 Avalon that somehow manages to get 25mpg (according to the car) and has on tap 268hp. Far more power than I need but I love the comfort and drivability. Automatic shifting is even perfect. And the fuel consumption is absolutely no problem. Five mpg less than my previous Jetta but the difference seems like flystuff.
Soon we are going to drive up Vancouver Is at least to PR and I wonder how much of a hassle finding charging stations would be? Also I would imagine plug-in stations would charge more for electrons than your local PUD. And at times I would probably have to sit in my car while it was charging.
All and all it looks like they are more practical and useful than I thought. I Nissan Leaf may do for my needs if they have a 150mi range. What does one do when the batt goes dead? For now though I think I’d be happier driving my Avalon.
And yes the batts on the e-cars do seem to have a relatively good record. But what would/will we do w all those spent batts when e-cars become the norm? An incredible number of batts will need to be recycled or disposed of. Man’s garbage is just about unmanageable as it is.
Very well put and as far as I see it good numbers. Ithought the plug-ins would cost about as much as a Cadilac after the electrons were purchased. Would that be much different back east.
I’m a poor man driving an 06 Avalon that somehow manages to get 25mpg (according to the car) and has on tap 268hp. Far more power than I need but I love the comfort and drivability. Automatic shifting is even perfect. And the fuel consumption is absolutely no problem. Five mpg less than my previous Jetta but the difference seems like flystuff.
Soon we are going to drive up Vancouver Is at least to PR and I wonder how much of a hassle finding charging stations would be? Also I would imagine plug-in stations would charge more for electrons than your local PUD. And at times I would probably have to sit in my car while it was charging.
All and all it looks like they are more practical and useful than I thought. I Nissan Leaf may do for my needs if they have a 150mi range. What does one do when the batt goes dead? For now though I think I’d be happier driving my Avalon.
And yes the batts on the e-cars do seem to have a relatively good record. But what would/will we do w all those spent batts when e-cars become the norm? An incredible number of batts will need to be recycled or disposed of. Man’s garbage is just about unmanageable as it is.
Northern Spy
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That might be a bit of a stretch
17,550,000 vehicles were sold in the US in 2016. 159,000 were EV and 347,000 were hybrid.
In perspective, Ford sells more F-Series pickup trucks in 2 months than all combined EV and hybrid annual sales.
A large percentage of the EVs were purchased by government agencies.
I have nothing against hybrids or EVs, but they don't meet my personal requirements. Even though the tiny city I live in has several free charging stations.
A step change in battery power density or photovoltaic conversion efficiency is required.
Benthic2
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Great Britain has banned all gas and diesel vehicle sales after 2040.
Northern Spy
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Certainly a reasonable goal. The likelihood of engineering breakthrough and the cultural shifts that occur in next 22 years make it possible. The fact that the longest traverse of the island from tip to tip is 850 miles helps too.
SeaLion
Senior Member
Here's the hybrid boat psneeld mentioned...
2009 Island Pilot DSe12m Hybrid Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I've been underway on both the Greenline 33 and 40 and was impressed by the stable ride (both have fixed fins) and the quiet, but slow, while under electric only.
Greenline Yachts
For land and sea alike, the key is getting lots more power out of batteries and solar panels.
2009 Island Pilot DSe12m Hybrid Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I've been underway on both the Greenline 33 and 40 and was impressed by the stable ride (both have fixed fins) and the quiet, but slow, while under electric only.
Greenline Yachts
For land and sea alike, the key is getting lots more power out of batteries and solar panels.
GoneFarrell
Guru
I love Sam's stitch and glue boats, ever since I walked through one of his early boats, the "Czarinna." His shop is a candy store that I can't afford to hang out in too long! I don't know much about this latest design idea posted by the OP.
I think we will see a lot more hybrids for coastal and inland cruising before we see big all electric boats. Maybe Sam's new design is a hybrid? I don't know/can't find any info.
The euros have made some real progress with hybrids: Broadbeam Packages - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion I can see these working in the canals and bays easy. Super quiet, no fumes through the locks, etc.
Still more $$ for hybrid drive vs. conventional, but it offers the possibility to go all electric galley/no propane.
I can't see doing it to save $$ on fuel for a trawler/displacement hull, seems like the payback is out there beyond my good years left to navigate/scrape and paint!
I think we will see a lot more hybrids for coastal and inland cruising before we see big all electric boats. Maybe Sam's new design is a hybrid? I don't know/can't find any info.
The euros have made some real progress with hybrids: Broadbeam Packages - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion I can see these working in the canals and bays easy. Super quiet, no fumes through the locks, etc.
Still more $$ for hybrid drive vs. conventional, but it offers the possibility to go all electric galley/no propane.
I can't see doing it to save $$ on fuel for a trawler/displacement hull, seems like the payback is out there beyond my good years left to navigate/scrape and paint!
If you want a 2019 Volvo you'll either go hybrid or all electric.
That's how we'll move as a society, when we have no choice or no suitable alternative. People didn't voluntarily give up gas guzzlers. They had to be reduced to meet mpg requirements. No one volunteered for a catalytic converter. The other way is making it economically a wise move, which it isn't today. Either taxes or incentives. Same thing for solar homes and windmill farms.
I admit to being slow to move to electric or hybrid cars. We actually were interested in the Tesla convertible but it was short lived. Just thought it a great novelty and good for driving locally. For out company cars we currently are using Honda Civics, Accords and Pilots. Very closely following the Clarity, both the electric and fuel cell models, but we live about as far from their availability as possible. We have our first replacement vehicles to be purchased in the next few months. We'd figured we'd go to Civic Hybrids and Accord Hybrids, but Civic Hybrids no longer exist. An Accord Hybrid is $6,035 more than a Gas only version. We can save about $95 a year in fuel. So, if we drive them 63 years. We haven't decided, waiting to see what they do over the next few months.
Toss in solar homes. You'd think in the Sunshine State, they'd make a lot of sense. No. If we were building a new home we'd have them, but to go to solar with our existing roof would be terribly expensive. Oh, produce extra and sell it. Well, only back to FPL and net metering isn't a great deal. What about in a hurricane? Well, only if you have equipment installed that prevents your solar from feeding electricity back through the lines, otherwise it gets shut off. For us to pay for solar would take until the 12th of Never. We still want it for some reason, but now we're holding out hope for a Powerwall and then feeding the solar to it. I don't know where we'd put the Powerwall's or the legal hurdles. Part of our problem too is our house is very energy efficient. It often gets overlooked how much Dade hurricane requirements add to efficiency plus concrete and good insulation, so energy efficient building worsens the payback of solar.
We've given electric vehicles and solar homes a lot of thought, but haven't moved toward either yet.
That is true of land. We haven't given them much thought yet on the water as no boat that interests us is offered hybrid and solar would be of minimal benefit to us.
That's how we'll move as a society, when we have no choice or no suitable alternative. People didn't voluntarily give up gas guzzlers. They had to be reduced to meet mpg requirements. No one volunteered for a catalytic converter. The other way is making it economically a wise move, which it isn't today. Either taxes or incentives. Same thing for solar homes and windmill farms.
I admit to being slow to move to electric or hybrid cars. We actually were interested in the Tesla convertible but it was short lived. Just thought it a great novelty and good for driving locally. For out company cars we currently are using Honda Civics, Accords and Pilots. Very closely following the Clarity, both the electric and fuel cell models, but we live about as far from their availability as possible. We have our first replacement vehicles to be purchased in the next few months. We'd figured we'd go to Civic Hybrids and Accord Hybrids, but Civic Hybrids no longer exist. An Accord Hybrid is $6,035 more than a Gas only version. We can save about $95 a year in fuel. So, if we drive them 63 years. We haven't decided, waiting to see what they do over the next few months.
Toss in solar homes. You'd think in the Sunshine State, they'd make a lot of sense. No. If we were building a new home we'd have them, but to go to solar with our existing roof would be terribly expensive. Oh, produce extra and sell it. Well, only back to FPL and net metering isn't a great deal. What about in a hurricane? Well, only if you have equipment installed that prevents your solar from feeding electricity back through the lines, otherwise it gets shut off. For us to pay for solar would take until the 12th of Never. We still want it for some reason, but now we're holding out hope for a Powerwall and then feeding the solar to it. I don't know where we'd put the Powerwall's or the legal hurdles. Part of our problem too is our house is very energy efficient. It often gets overlooked how much Dade hurricane requirements add to efficiency plus concrete and good insulation, so energy efficient building worsens the payback of solar.
We've given electric vehicles and solar homes a lot of thought, but haven't moved toward either yet.
That is true of land. We haven't given them much thought yet on the water as no boat that interests us is offered hybrid and solar would be of minimal benefit to us.
FF
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"Great Britain has banned all gas and diesel vehicle sales after 2040."
2039 is going to be one heck of a year for car sales!
2039 is going to be one heck of a year for car sales!
