Electric Boats

[Bob Cofer]

I for one like the idea of being able to cruise in relative silence. A hybrid would give the ability to do that and to cruise in a somewhat normal fashion. A DC hybrid system would work here in the PNW and would be something very interesting. Hopefully tinkering and messing about in boats isn't a dying activity.

 

[Brooksie]

Respectfully, i think the point some are making is that these buyers of Volts & Teslas are under the false impression they have driven home a "zero-emission" vehicle.
if they believe this, they have forgotten about from where the power comes to keep recharging those massive batteries. Plus as someone else mentioned, what will happen to our landfills or recycle facilities as the first wave of hybrid or electric cars are retired and someone has to figure out what to do with all those batteries?
From the perspective of an electrical engineer, I find it odd that many people see these new products as a new form of energy, but they are not. they are simply very fancy and expensive energy storage devices... they are just a way to store energy that was extracted from the nearest electric plant. In most cases, that electric plant is not zero emission.
The power and energy efficiency gained from oil is still hard to beat and we've also built extremely clean ways to burn it.
I agree conservation and pollution reduction are excellent goals, but modern cars are so clean already. I'm just not yet convinced "batteries" are the next best energy solution.

Agree completely. My point was only that the longer the government distorts the marketplace with tax incentives for "favored" segments; the longer it takes to discover what is really viable.
The only people worse than futurists at predicting the future are elite politicians.

 

[DavidM]

Ski:

It took you three concise paragraphs to say the same things that took me a half dozen posts and a lot of calculations (well, I like calculations!!).

Thanks, David

A few tidbits:

Almost zero petroleum is used to generate electricity for the grid in the CONUS. I think the mix is about 35% natgas, 30% coal, 20% nuke. The remaining is hydro, wind and solar. Wind and solar are growing, too.

I too think the ecar market will grow. In fact I would consider one for local trips. Around here folks are using golf carts for local travel. Something in between a full function car and a golf cart would sell if for cheap money. Then a proper ICE road car for long trips.

The boat e-drive thing is nonsense unless very short trips. Many times more energy needed to push a boat vs similar size car, depending of course on speed. Power density is just not there in a reasonably sized batt bank to get any range or run time.

 

[sunchaser]

A few tidbits:

Almost zero petroleum is used to generate electricity for the grid in the CONUS. I think the mix is about 35% natgas, 30% coal, 20% nuke. The remaining is hydro, wind and solar. Wind and solar are growing, .

Don't overlook the fact that all of the above need liquid fuels to mine and process the raw materials. Secondly, much of the natural gas is a byproduct from oil production.

All this said, the worlds largest to-be energy producer, China, loves coal, nuclear and petroleum products. After the Three Gorges Dam fiasco China's hydro future is almost nil. They love wind, via shipping equipment to US.

Now back to driving to Las Vegas from LA, Salt Lake City or Phoenix for a fun weekend. Lots of gas powered cars, a few hybrids and I'm yet to see a Tesla. Maybe just missed them.

 

[Hamrow]

The boat e-drive thing is nonsense unless very short trips. Many times more energy needed to push a boat vs similar size car, depending of course on speed. Power density is just not there in a reasonably sized batt bank to get any range or run time.

Agreed and another point i don't recall yet seeing in this thread: for cars, they have a significant advantage when they use regenerative braking to recapture energy every time they come to a stop.
A boat on the other hand has no comparable tool for recapturing energy this way.

 

[Bob Cofer]

Wouldn't solar panels take the place of regenerative braking?

 

[BandB]

I'm just not yet convinced "batteries" are the next best energy solution.

You're ultimately (not putting a timetable on it) going to be "convinced' on cars because you won't have choices. It may well not be the ideal solution and we may move on from it quickly. Look at Honda. At the same time they're testing the Honda Clarity plug in electric version, they're testing a Hydrogen Fuel Cell version.

 

[Hamrow]

Wouldn't solar panels take the place of regenerative braking?

Solar can help but it is really more like a small trickle charge when compared to the significant mechanical force of hauling a 2000 lb car to a stop. With many of these cars, one or several of the wheels are connected to an electric motor that when braking, turns into a generator, using all that weight to not only produce energy, but also help slow the car down.

 

[DavidM]

Hydrogen fuel cells are just a different way to convert natural gas or electricity to a hydrogen fuel that can power cars.

The vast majority of hydrogen is made from natural gas where 50% of the energy in the gas is lost in the conversion process. A tiny amount is made by electricity disassociating water and that process is very efficient. But generating the electricity isn't. It is about 45% efficient in converting natural gas to electricity, a bit less for coal.

Then there is the storage, distribution and compression to 10,000 psi so you can store enough in a high pressure cylinder to power a car. Lot's of waste on that end. And I don't want to drive around with a 10,000 psi bomb under the back seat.

David

 

[Nomad Willy]

Wouldn't solar panels take the place of regenerative braking?

Following seas could as well.
Yea I know not that plentiful.

Coffer’s thinking was close to mine in post 61. We have had threads on diesel electric and hybrid is just DE w a small engine isn’t it? Well similar.
And the high number of skippers here that want to throttle up and go fast or faster to outrun weather or buck tidal current the hybrid delivers. AND one can do it w a small engine. Could be a solution to a long talked about problem. With a hybrid I could power down to 27hp and do all my around the harbor on electric. Nice. For the first time I see a hybrid boat with real value.

 

[Hamrow]

You're ultimately (not putting a timetable on it) going to be "convinced' on cars because you won't have choices. It may well not be the ideal solution and we may move on from it quickly. Look at Honda. At the same time they're testing the Honda Clarity plug in electric version, they're testing a Hydrogen Fuel Cell version.

BandB,
I've been a "car guy" all my life and I started driving when American muscle from the late 60s was the hottest thing to have in the high school parking lot
Even today I still love (and own a car with) the roar of a V8 engine. That said, I suspect you're right we might all be stuck with fewer choices and mostly e-cars within a few years.
But I think for now I'll sit on the sidelines, watch, and let these car companies work more bugs out and refine their battery systems...

 

[AusCan]

As with most major changes in technology, it appears as if it is a long way off in the future, until it is here.

Renewable power stations in Australia were supported by incentives for a very short time. Now suddenly, wind and solar power stations are the most cost effective way of producing electricity. Coal and natural gas power stations are struggling to compete. It is doubtful another fossil fuel power station will ever be built in Australia without subsidies.

Will the change in the automotive industry be the same?

 

[BandB]

BandB,
I've been a "car guy" all my life and I started driving when American muscle from the late 60s was the hottest thing to have in the high school parking lot
Even today I still love (and own a car with) the roar of a V8 engine. That said, I suspect you're right we might all be stuck with fewer choices and mostly e-cars within a few years.
But I think for now I'll sit on the sidelines, watch, and let these car companies work more bugs out and refine their battery systems...

We've been tempted for our personal cars but there's not yet a high powered hybrid convertible sports car. Meanwhile our cars are 5 years old and have just over 20,000 miles on them. Normally we trade at 7 years or so, but no need or desire so may just keep going and hit 10 years with 40,000 miles. So, like you, we're following it all but we're on the sideline when it comes to personal cars. By the time then we get ready to consider buying, what's available will be totally different from today.

 

[DavidM]

We've been tempted for our personal cars but there's not yet a high powered hybrid convertible sports car.

The Tesla Model S? Not a hybrid, but a pure electric vehicle. 0-60 in < 3 seconds, almost 300 mile range, fully recharges overnight at home. But costs $75-100K.

Yes it is a car for the rich, but so is a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin,... at double the price.

David

 

[BandB]

The Tesla Model S? Not a hybrid, but a pure electric vehicle. 0-60 in < 3 seconds, almost 300 mile range, fully recharges overnight at home. But costs $75-100K.

Yes it is a car for the rich, but so is a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin,... at double the price.

David

No convertible.

 

[DavidM]

No convertible.

Ahhh! I see. Well, I doubt Elon Musk will let them design a convertible version anytime soon. Too much added weight. But keep watching!!!

FWIW, we bought our Mini convertible to use here in Connecticut. I know that sounds crazy. It isn't like SoCal where we lived years ago where you could use a convertible 350 days or more each year. But we have used it top down quite a bit, even last week for a quick trip to the local lunch place. Alas those days are probably over for at least 5 months.

David

 

[BandB]

Ahhh! I see. Well, I doubt Elon Musk will let them design a convertible version anytime soon. Too much added weight. But keep watching!!!

FWIW, we bought our Mini convertible to use here in Connecticut. I know that sounds crazy. It isn't like SoCal where we lived years ago where you could use a convertible 350 days or more each year. But we have used it top down quite a bit, even last week for a quick trip to the local lunch place. Alas those days are probably over for at least 5 months.

David

His first Tesla was a convertible, the Spider, but I see the weight issue. We lived in NC and enjoyed convertibles. The first nice day you could take the top down was always special.

The market will change so much over the next five years. It will be interesting to see.

 

[Kain_Kelly]

Every one always talks about solar, what about wind? Plus solar captures alot of energy that goes unused, IMHO for a ocean crossing boat solar collection makes more sense the solar power. I mean sailboats have been using it since time began, maybe even before then. I can't think of a boat for off shore use that does not have a wind generator. As for hybrids diesial electric hybrids are the end all, most of the best of both worlds while not completely killing to oil industry. My custom that I was talking about in another thread is a hybrid.

Sincerely,
Kain Kelly

 

[Benthic2]

Every bass boat with an electric trolling motor is a hybrid too.

 

[Benthic2]

I just read this mornign that Lambogini and MIT are working on an electric car that will use the carbon fiber body panels as capacitors instead of batteries. ( it was on CNN.com)

 

[Kain_Kelly]

I just read this mornign that Lambogini and MIT are working on an electric car that will use the carbon fiber body panels as capacitors instead of batteries. ( it was on CNN.com)

That is interesting, caps tend to not have enough energy density to be viable for electric cars. Stepping from fact to opinion (So buyyer bewhere) I have little respect for MIT several questionable ethics paper that either with hold facts to drum up interest, or hold a highly questionable originality. So take what MIT says with a grain of salt. Just my 2 cents.

 

[twistedtree]

Fledgling industries need subsidies to get off the ground. Otherwise, the risk would be too great and no one would be willing to invest in them. At one point, oil exploration was considered high risk, and deemed necessary for the country. Exxon is making enough that it can assume its own risk at this point. Oil subsidies are the biggest example of "crony capitalism" that I can think of. For electric/hybrid cars the approach was to encourage the demand, and let the industry fill it. Certainly the Auto companies can afford the R&D for the technology, but people needed encouragement to buy the cars. People wouldn't buy them because they were an unknown. They would stay an unknown until someone bought them. That's the perfect place for a demand boosting subsidy. It makes sense for tax dollars to be used because I get the benefit if you buy an electric car. Demand for foreign oil and polution go down, and the industry advances. Those are good for everyone.

As for the efficiency of the vehicles...that will improve as the market develops for them, hence the subsidy, and at the very least, it can move the pollution away from the cities and reduce smog and health issues for the majority of the population. (Think of the second hand smoke argument)

Remember that this isn't entirely about efficiency....there is the pollution component as well.

What you are describing is the classic innovators go-to-market challenge, with catchy names like crossing the chasm, and the innovators dilemma. But having started a company from zilch and getting through that transition to a company worth over billion$$, i can assure you that no government assistance is required. We sure had none.

 

[sunchaser]

What you are describing is the classic innovators go-to-market challenge, with catchy names like crossing the chasm, and the innovators dilemma. But having started a company from zilch and getting through that transition to a company worth over billion$$, i can assure you that no government assistance is required. We sure had none.

+1

Benthic, what Exxon subsidies are you referring to that are not industry wide? The US and Canadian oil producers are competing with world wide socialism inspired government owned oil companies. No other country has developed fossil fuel skills, knowledge and innovation as compared to the US and Canadian producers. Capital formation via the markets or privately rule the oil business. Big risk, big reward. It is called capitalism.

How fledgling wannabes do it is largely the same as you see on Shark Tank, equity raisings. Whether oil drilling, autos, electronics or airplanes. And as TT notes above, the electric car guys can and do use the same techniques - capital formation. Tesla anybody? But they better have an economically viable game plan without government inspired gimmicks.

And Benthic, the US is now exporting oil, we are awash in it. And will be for a very long time.

 

[Hamrow]

Another thought on this topic considering this is a Trawler forum. If you step back and consider the overall boating industry, very many of the boats in the trawler category generally cruise slow and burn ~5 GPH or less.
If you then compare this with many other recreational boats or sport fishers that can easily burn ten times what we do, that makes trawlers the lower consumption "economy" vehicles out there on the water....

 

[GoneFarrell]

Ham,
Yeah, I think displacement trawlers can show an advantage in $$ per ton-mile, a comparison that doesn't include speed. My old tub costs about 7 cents per ton-mile.
2 GPH, 8 MPH, 10 tons at $2.80 per gallon, rough estimate.

Up (and down) to a point, displacement equates to space/creature comforts available. Chasing that sweet spot with diesel, hybrid or whatever is a harder to define part of the equation, part of the total "value" derived from boating under way and at anchor/dock, the how much/how little boat suits a particular skipper and admiral on board.

 

[Benthic2]

Posted by Sunchaser:
Benthic, what Exxon subsidies are you referring to that are not industry wide? The US and Canadian oil producers are competing with world wide socialism inspired government owned oil companies. No other country has developed fossil fuel skills, knowledge and innovation as compared to the US and Canadian producers. Capital formation via the markets or privately rule the oil business. Big risk, big reward. It is called capitalism.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make: The oil subsidies are OK because they are industry wide, or the subsidies are necessary because the competition is supported by socialism ? But...then you go on to say that no one has the knowledge and experience that the US & Canada have......

If we are leading the industry, we don't need to be subsidized.
Just because the subsidies are industry wide, doesn't mean they are justified.

EOM was the second most profitable company in the world. Not the US, THE WORLD !! They DO NOT NEED SUBSIDIES !!!!

I understand the risk/reward relationship. However, some markets have higher barriers to entry than others, and simply would not exist without a subsidy. If a person risks their own resources and succeeds, they get the rewards. However, some industries benefit not only the founder/owner, but society as a whole. If you cure diabetes tomorrow, you will certainly get rich...but society benefits as well. Therefore it makes sense for the government to help you reach your goal.

My main point was to counter the argument that e-vehicle or solar subsidies are a waste of money because oil is so efficient....but oil is also heavily subsidized.

I know I'm not going to convice change anyone's mind on the liberal/conservative spectrum. I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of the idea that electric vehicles can't compete with petroleum power so they shouldn't be subsidized.

 

[sunchaser]

Benthic
I'll keep it simple. You said Exxon is receiving subsidies, what are they?

 

[North Baltic sea]

Hydrogen powered from water electrolysis motorboat and yatch projekt. I think this is betetr future powered vs elektric

https://youtu.be/oRBCVlNRBJ4

More exaples:
https://technabob.com/blog/2011/12/14/mig-675-hydrogen-powered-boat/

https://yachtemoceans.com/hydrogen-motor-yacht/

And ocean going projekt wind, solar and hydrogen catamarin
http://www.vocativ.com/439603/energy-observer-hydrogen-powered-boat/index.html


NBs(green)

 

[FF]

"Tesla anybody? But they better have an economically viable game plan without government inspired gimmicks."

Tesla goes NOT make money by selling cars ,

its cash flow comes from selling "indulgances" to car makers that produce gas hogs .

The fine per gas hog is cheaper if offsets are purchased .

 

[BaltimoreLurker]

Benthic
I'll keep it simple. You said Exxon is receiving subsidies, what are they?

Protection by the US 7th Fleet and then the 5th Fleet. But, it's not just Exxon that gets a "free" escort service.