Electric Trawler

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lots of dreamers think an electric boat might work.

If you wish to join a discussion , mostly experienced folks and NA's on why it is not yet practical,

Boat Design Forums

is the place to dig in the archives.

Someday perhaps , after batts get 10x better perhaps ,
now a cruise at 4K for a mile or two does not justify the monster expense.
 
Thank you to those of you who gave positive nonemotional based; non sociogenic info/responses:

Electric boats have been around for over 100 years so there is nothing new in that regard. in fact it was the internal combustion engine that put them out of business shortly after WW1 - WW1 mind you not WW2 : German U boats during WW1 (again WW1 - not WW2) utilized electric motors while submerged.......... so, no new idea at all - far from it.

The problem has been how to recharge the batteries (not the batteries mind you; again dependable, rechargeable batteries have been aronud since before WW1) and that issue is now resolved: As I've previously mentioned the Navy's SDV is completely electric; can power a 17 ton vessel; fully submerged upto 8 knots to a range of some 45 miles........

The motor & batteries are built obviously to complete underwater COMBAT spex and is not necessary for my use........ hence the idea is not KNEW and the technology is available. I just don't know where to find it and evidently no-one on this site does either. My guess is the motor is Classified but whoever manufactures the motor for the Navy's SDV certainly makes somekind of a commercial grade civilian equivalent........

Lithium-ion batteries are easienuff to get hold of but till I have a motor I don't really know how many I'll need nor how to wire them.....

The solar panels are also relatively easy to track down........

Am looking for a non flybridge type boat with a relatively flat hard top to outfit the entire top with panels also to include fold out 'wings' in order to double the overall solar collector area if/when desired.........

Also, a good freind of mine is PhD MIT EE and my adopted daughter is undegrad EE ; Purdue and the 3 of us have already ; on paper designed this system..... I need to know where I can find the 'parts'; so if you can help me great! if you can't thats great too! as this is only one place to look. I thought by some slim chance that someone on this site maybe has already done something similar as I can't belive I'm a 'pioneer' of anything.........

INTJonn
 
Are you also interested in wind generators to assist the solar in charging batteries?

How about fuel cells?

Are you willing to get much or your recharge from marinas...or only from nature?
 
Greetings,
Mr. intjonn. I think the major stumbling block in this exercise is not a specific motor but current battery technology that several members have already alluded to. It might be to your advantage, if you have not already considered this, to determine how much weight your totally stripped out hull will be able to carry. Weight and space will determine how much "fuel" (as in electrical) you will have available.
I seem to remember that it takes about 40HP to drive a hull at hull speed. The way I figure it that's about 30KW. I'm sure you've "crunched" the numbers as to what range you can ideally expect and how long it will take to replenish your "fuel" given the limited area of solar cells you will be able to utilize.
 
The amount of battery bank you'll need relative to your given choice of vessel simply doesn't pencil out- nor does the amount of solar cells required to maintain said battery bank above 50% of charge.

There is no secret or anything magic about the SDV- it has a 36 mile combat range. The DSV/DSRV carries a massive amount of batteries and still has limited endurance.

I'm not saying it can't be done- innovation can and does happen. I applaud your initiative to investigate the road less traveled. However, you come here to start what could be a great discussion, and your narcissistic attitude precludes you from participating in a constructive way. Get off your high horse, discuss rather than direct, and you'll be amazed at what the brain trust here can come up with.
 
There is a local Port Townsend friend of mine who spent a number of years and a significant amount of money to design and develop an electric drive cruiser. He did extensive tank testing to develop a hull that had good handling, easily driven, and good lines while being suited to the Pacific NW. His model was a boat that could carry a couple about 50 miles at around 6kts under battery alone. It had a long length to beam ratio and resembled the old forestry yachts that once plied Canada and the North. It was designed with solar built into the roof, but had backup diesel generator assist.
It was intended to be able to do a three day cruise to a 50 mile destination and back under battery alone with charging at the destination. He was at the point to start his first hull when the economy went south and he chose the wise direction to put the project on the back shelf.
The boat was to be built cold molded and as light as possible to be able to carry a literal boat load of batteries.
HOLLYWOOD
 
Marin said:
There is a manufacturer of small--- up to 22 feet--- electric-only launches called the Duffy Electric Boat Co. Duffy Electric Boat Company - The world's leading manufacturer of electric boats since 1970.. There is a company that rents them on Seattle's Lake Union.

The endurance time given for the 4,300 pound, 22' model is 3.5 hours at a top speed of 6 mph or 7.5 hours at cruising speed which so far as I could determine from their site is 4 mph.

So not exactly what I would call "coastal cruising in a diesel cruiser" endurance. I believe their boats are recharge-them-at-the-dock boats as opposed to having a method of recharging batteries while underway.
Click to expand...

They rent and sell the Duffy on Lake Union. The owners where live aboard nieghbor of our when moored on lake union. I beleive most had a small engine to charge the battiers in necessary?
 
RT

To attempt to drive a battery powered vessel at hull speed when one knot slower requires HALF the power (or less) would be FAR from ideal.

Perhaps the ideal boat would be a 40' aircraft carrier w maximum solar panels. You'd stand out at the yacht club for sure.
 
Greetings,
Mr. Eric. Thanks. A propulsion expert I'm NOT. I just picked some numbers to get straight in my own mind how much battery capacity MIGHT be necessary. A LOT I think. As has been noted, there ARE all electric vessels about although minimal speed and short cruising times are most probably not what the OP is looking for. If I am incorrect in assuming this, reinventing the wheel is not necessary.
The very fact the OP describes his idea as a "trawler" suggests he is looking for range but not necessarily speed. So range is a simple function of "fuel" (electrical) capacity to put things in the very simplest of terms. If current (no pun intended...OK, just a bit) technology was 10X better as Mr. FF mentions, THEN this whole idea might be quite viable but there's STILL the problem of "refueling" and as you say, an aircraft carrier sized solar collection set-up OR, I would think, a shore power charging system that could "refuel" in say, an overnight dockage situation.
 
I think if the intent of the OP is trying to be as "green" as possible a diesel-electric is the way to go if we consider a diesel can be run on bio-diesel fuel. If done as a diesel-electric range would not be an issue. Anyway if I were inclined to spend a fortune on building a boat this way that's what I would do, but I'm not. I'd buy a motor-sailer and enjoy it.
 
I believe Boeing is having some issues with lithium-ion batteries. Not sure about the Chevy Volts that kept catching fire when sitting idle....
 
Solar

uh, where did he go? Now it is interesting! Solar powered catamaran in Australia
 

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RT Firefly said:
this whole idea might be quite viable but there's STILL the problem of "refueling" and as you say, an aircraft carrier sized solar collection set-up OR, I would think, a shore power charging system that could "refuel" in say, an overnight dockage situation.
Click to expand...


That or one hellofa long extension cord. :facepalm:

What about a sail boat with an electric motor for moving about the maria/moorage and other times when hoisting the sails isn't an option.
 
A bunch of bright people have designed wonderful electric propulsion systems....it's just that they didn't work out all that well in real life......

NA Craig Walters was one of the first to build a modern electric cruiser in the 1980's.....the range was so limited he changed to a small diesel fairly quickly.

Nordhavn installed a diesel electric system (motors and control by Siemens) in the first 70' maybe 6 years ago....the electric part has since been removed....

Glacier Bay were originally very big in electric yacht propulsion, we priced a DE system for the PL46 from them, $56k......and the parts didn't exist....against $15k for a diesel and gear it was a short contest.....
The 85' Aluminum Snowbird was built with Glacier Bay DE (OSSA Powerlite)propulsion and launched about 5-6 years ago.....she's never gone anywhere that I know of.

The Solar Planet project.....585 days in a semi-controlled drift around the world....just luck that all those millions weren't washed up on some beach.....

And the Island Pilot cat....$600k for an ugly and overweight boat....not really flying off the shelves......

I saw one pure electric boat which seemed to work....an ultra simple and light power cat, just a dayboat not intended to go far, with twin Torqueedo outboards, cheap and doable......
 
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Thanks for your authoritative comment on this, Tad. Perhaps such a venture with one of your designs behind it would inspire a successful outcome, however that would be measured. At least for now, a successful outcome of such a project doesn't seem to have a standard to compare to yet.
 
RT,
Excellent response and my comment probably came from my dislike for the way "hull speed" (the expression) is randomly thrown around like some golden thing to strive for. So many just don't understand full disp boats and I need to buck up just accept that as a given. But it's so important re cruise speeds but of course much less so w most of the boats here as they are semi-disp. Hull speed and faster is fine for most but even w SD boats I'll bet a knot slower will be not too far from half as much consumption. A knot slower than hull speed I mean.

But for electric power a full disp hull is not good enough. One must have a very efficient FD hull very noticeably different from the typical FD hull. 1/2 the fuel consumption for a FD hull and 1/2 the consumption for a really slippery hull. That's 1/4 the consumption and if you go to a cat hull the savings go to 1/8 as much power required. Now w similar improvements in propulsion perhaps the OP is closer than we think.
 
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Tad Roberts said:
The Solar Planet project.....585 days in a semi-controlled drift around the world....just luck that all those millions weren't washed up on some beach.....
Click to expand...

That is a bit of a harsh conclusion. I interviewed Raphael Domjan and his team for a yachting magazine article when the boat was in Miami and came away impressed with the man and his purpose, the crew, and his vessel.

It safely navigated more than 37,000 miles around the world on an average of about 25 horsepower day and night - it was far more than a "controlled drift." It was never intended to be a form of marine transportation, it was meant to be an example of what solar power and alternative thinking can do, and it performed that task admirably.

I suggest that before anyone dismiss the project, they spend some time reading about Domjan and why the boat was built and what he wanted it to show the world.
 
RickB said:
That is a bit of a harsh conclusion. I interviewed Raphael Domjan and his team for a yachting magazine article when the boat was in Miami and came away impressed with the man and his purpose, the crew, and his vessel..........
I suggest that before anyone dismiss the project, they spend some time reading about Domjan and why the boat was built and what he wanted it to show the world.
Click to expand...
Yes, it was quite an interesting exercise in sole use of solar, 'scuse the pun, I posted a link to in in post 25...
Here it is again, for those interested..
planetsolar: the first solar-powered boat around the world
 
intjonn said:
To anyone/everyone:

I did not join this site for a social experience but for serious feedback/input. Am not interested in anything with fossil fuel and thought I made that clear. am only interested in ideas/ feedback on where to find potential capable motors; batteries and solar panels; etc. If you are some type of ship architect and/or EE with marine application then you can probably help me; otherwise please don't waste my time......
Click to expand...
Why not retain,and pay, an EE to advise you within your strict parameters. If information seeking is your motivation.
 
intjonn said:
Lithium-ion batteries are easienuff to get hold of but till I have a motor I don't really know how many I'll need nor how to wire them.....
Click to expand...


Hmmmm..... you might want to rethink the big lithium battery thing a bit....:)

Or you could do what Tesla (cars) has done and use hundreds or thousands of finger-size lithium ion batteries--- essentially computer batteries---- physically bundled together. This apparently is how the developer got around the major heat problem with larger lithium batteries.

IIRC a Tesla has a range of over 100 miles and to my knowledge it is a pure electric car, not a hybrid. Of course it takes a lot less power to move a small, lightweight car down the road than to push a 20,000 pound-plus cruiser through the water.
 
Actually, depending on batt pack size chosen, up to 300 miles for the top line Tesla S
 
intjonn said:
Thank you to those of you who gave positive nonemotional based; non sociogenic info/responses:

Electric boats have been around for over 100 years so there is nothing new in that regard. in fact it was the internal combustion engine that put them out of business shortly after WW1 - WW1 mind you not WW2 : German U boats during WW1 (again WW1 - not WW2) utilized electric motors while submerged.......... so, no new idea at all - far from it.

The problem has been how to recharge the batteries (not the batteries mind you; again dependable, rechargeable batteries have been aronud since before WW1) and that issue is now resolved: As I've previously mentioned the Navy's SDV is completely electric; can power a 17 ton vessel; fully submerged upto 8 knots to a range of some 45 miles........

The motor & batteries are built obviously to complete underwater COMBAT spex and is not necessary for my use........ hence the idea is not KNEW and the technology is available. I just don't know where to find it and evidently no-one on this site does either. My guess is the motor is Classified but whoever manufactures the motor for the Navy's SDV certainly makes somekind of a commercial grade civilian equivalent........

Lithium-ion batteries are easienuff to get hold of but till I have a motor I don't really know how many I'll need nor how to wire them.....

The solar panels are also relatively easy to track down........

Am looking for a non flybridge type boat with a relatively flat hard top to outfit the entire top with panels also to include fold out 'wings' in order to double the overall solar collector area if/when desired.........

Also, a good freind of mine is PhD MIT EE and my adopted daughter is undegrad EE ; Purdue and the 3 of us have already ; on paper designed this system..... I need to know where I can find the 'parts'; so if you can help me great! if you can't thats great too! as this is only one place to look. I thought by some slim chance that someone on this site maybe has already done something similar as I can't belive I'm a 'pioneer' of anything.........

INTJonn
Click to expand...

Many if not all of you seem to have not graspt what I wrote previously so pleease read above quote and realize some things:

This technology already exists.......... solar panels, batteries, motors - they already exist! As i've mentioned the Navy is using the kind of motor I need or something similar in their SDV.........

I want to purchase a civilian equivalent of the motor used in the SDV if I can find out who manufactures it; I can buy it. The batteries and solar panels are all easy enuff to get.

Now the Navy has publicly acknowledged that the 17 ton SDV will travel submerged 8kts for 45 miles. For those on this thread who are priors - the US military for years said the SR-71 would go mac 3 when it went mac 7 and that it could fly 75,000 ft when it and not the space shuttle was actually the first aircraft to leave the earths atmosphere and return under its own power.......

So, if USN says the SVD can travel 8kts; it probably can go 15 maybe 20; with a disclosed range of 45 miles, it probably will travel a hundred - all this while fully submerged and with no recharging capability while under its own power.

Scale this back to a 6 or 7 ton vessel w/ displacement hull and said hull topped with solar panels......... as I've written my friend, daughter & myself have already designed the system - I need a motor - one similar to what is built for Navy's sdv but a commercial grade civilian equivalent as I hardly need it for clandestine combat conditions........ I'ld like to find out who manufactures this thing or something similar.

Thanx.....INTJonn
 
intjonn said:
Many if not all of you seem to have not graspt what I wrote previously so pleease read above quote and realize some things:

This technology already exists.......... solar panels, batteries, motors - they already exist! As i've mentioned the Navy is using the kind of motor I need or something similar in their SDV.........

I want to purchase a civilian equivalent of the motor used in the SDV if I can find out who manufactures it; I can buy it. The batteries and solar panels are all easy enuff to get.

Now the Navy has publicly acknowledged that the 17 ton SDV will travel submerged 8kts for 45 miles. For those on this thread who are priors - the US military for years said the SR-71 would go mac 3 when it went mac 7 and that it could fly 75,000 ft when it and not the space shuttle was actually the first aircraft to leave the earths atmosphere and return under its own power.......

So, if USN says the SVD can travel 8kts; it probably can go 15 maybe 20; with a disclosed range of 45 miles, it probably will travel a hundred - all this while fully submerged and with no recharging capability while under its own power.

Scale this back to a 6 or 7 ton vessel w/ displacement hull and said hull topped with solar panels......... as I've written my friend, daughter & myself have already designed the system - I need a motor - one similar to what is built for Navy's sdv but a commercial grade civilian equivalent as I hardly need it for clandestine combat conditions........ I'ld like to find out who manufactures this thing or something similar.

Thanx.....INTJonn
Click to expand...

You never answered my questions...and have pretty much insulted most of us and our intelligence ....so have fun...:rolleyes:

With a couple EE's in your back pocket I'll be looking for the maiden voyage of your newbreaking trawler in the next couple of months ...:rofl:
 
This technology already exists.......... solar panels, batteries, motors - they already exist! As i've mentioned the Navy is using the kind of motor I need or something similar in their SDV...

Yes the tech exists but NOT YET at a level where a practical boat can result.

You would do a great service by producing a battery with 10X the power density that can be charged 10x faster than current tech.

Today the best , most practical battery powered boat is about 3 ft long.

Bost design net has tons of actual NA and enginers , post your plans and perhaps they can do the math so you can understand why its is far from practical.
 
Marin said:
Hmmmm..... you might want to rethink the big lithium battery thing a bit....:)

Or you could do what Tesla (cars) has done and use hundreds or thousands of finger-size lithium ion batteries--- essentially computer batteries---- physically bundled together. This apparently is how the developer got around the major heat problem with larger lithium batteries.
Click to expand...

The only "heat problem" anyone had was from Chevron and GM attorneys filing patent infringement suits to prevent the commercialization of large NiMH cells and their application to automotive use.
 
I finally found where to begin my search for the motor I need:

General Dynamics Electric Boat

...and as I wrote I did not come here for a social expereince so moderator/admin you may close this thread and remove all posts.

Thanx & Ciao........INTJonn
 
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