Electrolysis check for Swift Trawler Owners

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Dude, Yes both pumps would run if you switch it to manual. You can probably get away with it. These type of pumps can run dry for a surprisingly long time. Fuse size might be an issue.

I would install a separate switch for the sump. It's not hard or expensive.

yhst-72402774165461_2272_12476366
3 position witches always remind me of the Lucas model once posted.
The 3 positions were Off/Dim/Flicker.
 
When I owned a British car, I always kept a can of replacement smoke to put back in the wires when it leaked out.
 
3 position witches always remind me of the Lucas model once posted.

Wifey B: "3 position witches"......:rofl: Is "posted" a euphemism for something else? :eek: Sorry, just couldn't help myself.
 
A vessel not plugged into shore power does eliminate the possibility of galvanic and stray current corrosion via other vessels, i.e. your zinc anodes protecting a nearby boat, or your underwater metals being consumed by a fault from a nearby vessel. I welcome that approach, however, it's not one many boat owners are willing to take. If plugged in, a galvanic isolator will prevent most galvanic corrosion issues with the aforementioned limitations, and an isolation transformer will minimize the possibility of stray current corrosion. I say 'minimize' because in some rare cases stray current from a neighboring vessel can enter an underwater metal, travel over a bonding wire and exit at another metal. Again, this is exceedingly rare. This scenario, unlikely though it is, is often used as an argument against bonding, and because of its infrequency it's a poor one. A properly designed (including a galvanic isolator or isolation transformer) and installed, and well-maintained (including anodes) bonding system offers a host of advantages against corrosion, electrocution and lightning damage, with the only exception being in wooden vessels. Bonded (anodically over-protected) metals can produce an alkaline solution that is harmless to the metal and fiberglass (it can cause paint blistering and halos), however, it does lead to delignification in wood, which compromises its integrity.

Once again, in the case with which this thread began, the pinkish hue is a clear indication of dezincification of an alloy ill-suited to underwater use. A well-maintained, low resistance bonding system and zinc anodes may have held this corrosion at bay for some time, however, if the zincs were depleted or the bonding system was compromised by corrosion or a poor connection, then the ignoble zinc in the copper-zinc alloy through hulls would begin to corrode.

Regardless of bonding system or anode condition, copper alloy metals that are prone to dezincification, brass in this case, are inappropriate for underwater use. Europeans, in an effort to reduce this type of failure, have developed the DZR, dezincification resistant alloy standard. In many cases these alloys still contain brass, however, it's alloyed in such a way as to resist dezincification. It's worth noting, however, it's dezincification resistant, rather then dezincification-proof. Only alloys that contain little or no (2% or less) zinc are dezincification proof. Generally, in the US, the zinc threshold is 15%, 10% is better. Most common pipe nipples are made from an alloy called leaded read brass, with brass being the operative word, they contain zinc, ideally 10% or less, however, there is no way of knowing how much zinc is contained in a copper ally by simply looking at it (anecdotally, if it looks yellow it almost certainly contains more than 10% zinc). I've seen these nippels corrode and perforate, when used in an air-conditioning raw water system, in less than a year of use. I've also encountered cases where a brass quarter inch pipe plug resulted in the sinking of a vessel after it dezincified and fell out of a sea strainer. This article offers additional details on the subject of brass and dezincification Know your Underwater Alloys | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting

Corrosion is an area that is all too frequently misunderstood, even and especially by marine industry professionals. They often have good intentions, however, they lack the understanding of the corrosion processes to properly troubleshoot these problems, and as such they either spend a great deal of time (and your money) without finding a cause or solution or they misdiagnose the problem. If, in offering an explanation, they are unable to trace the path of the electrons, literally, then their understanding of the problem should be suspect.
 
Wifey B: "3 position witches"......:rofl: Is "posted" a euphemism for something else? :eek: Sorry, just couldn't help myself.

If you ever use old Lucas circuitry, "witches" might be the kindest thing you'll call them. :)
 
Wifey B: "3 position witches"......:rofl: Is "posted" a euphemism for something else? :eek: Sorry, just couldn't help myself.


Reading your response this popped into my head. Sometimes I feel like this is how my own deductive reasoning process goes in my mind.

- There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
- Are there? What are they? Tell us. - Do they hurt?
- Tell me, what do you do with witches?
- Burn them!
- And what do you burn, apart from witches?
- More witches! - Wood!
- So why do witches burn?
- 'Cause they're made of wood? - Good!
- How do we tell if she is made of wood? - Build a bridge out of her.
- But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
- Oh, yeah.
- Does wood sink in water?
- No, it floats. - Throw her into the pond!
- What also floats in water?
- Bread. - Apples.
- Very small rocks. - Cider! Great gravy.
- Cherries. Mud. - Churches.
- Lead. - A duck!
- Exactly.
- So, logically--
- If she weighs the same as a duck...
- she's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- A witch!
- A duck! A duck! - Here's a duck.
- We shaIl use my largest scales.
- Burn the witch !
- Remove the supports!
- A witch!
- It's a fair cop.
- Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?

From The Holy Grail...
 
A vessel not plugged into shore power does eliminate the possibility of galvanic and stray current corrosion via other vessels, i.e. your zinc anodes protecting a nearby boat, or your underwater metals being consumed by a fault from a nearby vessel. I welcome that approach, however, it's not one many boat owners are willing to take.

Steve - Why is it that many boat owners are not willing to leave their boat isolated in berth? :confused: Scarred the boat could get lonely?? LOL Maybe fearful the boat could leak and bilge pumps will kill the batts - that's what ins premiums are paid for? Or, beer will not be chilled in fridge upon arrival?? Just being funny... sort of, but, I really am wondering!

Can't get more simple to stop metal deterioration than isolation. :thumb: :D
 
I can say that I will leave my boat plugged in year round. During summer when I am normally gone, I leave the Air Systems on "dehumidify" and that controls / eliminates any mold issues, etc. on the boat. It keeps the batteries tended, etc. Being lucky in my current marina, my anodes show very little wear, I expect that to increase in the hotter weather, but I could be wrong. The water is on the fresh side of brackish, leaning on the fresh side I would say most of the year. I could see where someone has a boat leaking into the water and tearing other boats up would be a problem. I wonder if there is some affordable probing device available to test the water in any port where you decide to stay?
 
Boating around the country has different needs and ways of boating...

Most boaters I know from NJ to FL and even Alaska leave their boats plugged in if they have shore power...for a variety of reasons.
 
Plugged in is the norm, for better or worse, for battery charge, bilge pumps, refrigeration and HVAC.

If you wished, you could install a permanent reference electrode that would monitor the protection level of your underwater metals. In the event of a stray current corrosion scenario you'd see a significant change in protection, and if your anodes were depleted you'd also see a change, alerting you to an issue.

From the standpoint of monitoring for a fault that could lead to ESD, yes, it's called an ELCI circuit breaker, it affords the entire vessel ground fault protection, albeit at a higher threshold, 30 milliamps, than a conventional GFCI receptacle, which trips at 5-7 milliamps. If you have a fault aboard the ELCI will trip. These are being installed by some marinas on the dock pedestal and many new boats that are built to meet the ABYC/NMMA standard include them.

The problem with ground faults that they are often intermittent, I routinely encounter these on HVAC systems, the fault is only present when the system kicks in, and not when it's idle.

Not to beat a dead horse, however, and while it may have been said already, you, and particularly children, should never swim around boats and docks equipped with shore power, salt or freshwater, period. I'm well aware of the salt water negation issue, however, for the reasons I detailed earlier, with changes in salinity, one can never be certain, and I can't say with absolute assurance that an ESD could never occur in salt water. If you choose to do this it's certainly your decision, however, marine industry pro's should never dismiss as impossible ESD in salt or brackish water.
 
... you... should never swim around boats and docks equipped with shore power, salt or freshwater, period.

From a boat maintenance standpoint, this is impractical. And again, my own personal, professional experience is that you are far more likely to be killed or injured simply driving to your saltwater marina than you are by swimming in it.


If you choose to do this it's certainly your decision, however, marine industry pro's should never dismiss as impossible ESD in salt or brackish water.

This marine industry pro, at least, unplugs every boat he works on, ESD danger or no.
 
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From a boat maintenance standpoint, this is impractical. And again, my own personal, professional experience is that you are far more likely to be killed or injured simply driving to your saltwater marina than you are by swimming in it.




This marine industry pro, at least, unplugs every boat he works on, ESD danger or no.

Not always

See my post a ways back, it was my diver that alerted me to a problem. He felt a strange tingle when cleaning my boat (the water was less salt then normal due to much rain) when I had a electric survey done we found 6+ amps AC leaking into the boat. When we checked the only nearby boat plugged into the dock he was leaking over 8 amps due to an AC neutral being connected to the common ground via the green wire. Remember the common ground is also your bonding as AC and DC grounds are common.

It was like running a wire from the neutral at the pedestal right into the water. If someone fell into the water next to the sailboat ESD was very likely or even cardiac arrest.

The same electrician was hired to find and fix the problem I was shown the wiring error and it looked like someone added an outlet with no knowledge of what they were doing.

The electrician told me that household appliances (refrigerators,automotive battery chargers, microwave ovens etc) will also do the same thing if they have 3 wires as often they ground the body and the neutral internally and will often cause this dangerous problem.

If for marine use, household appliances should be checked for neutral to ground continuity and corrected if found.
 
Not always

See my post a ways back, it was my diver that alerted me to a problem. He felt a strange tingle when cleaning my boat (the water was less salt then normal due to much rain) when I had a electric survey done we found 6+ amps AC leaking into the boat. When we checked the only nearby boat plugged into the dock he was leaking over 8 amps due to an AC neutral being connected to the common ground via the green wire.

Yes. I too know hull cleaners who have felt obvious electricity in the water. But your diver wasn't injured or killed. Nor were the divers I know. Few (if any) are, in saltwater. That is the point.
 
Yes. I too know hull cleaners who have felt obvious electricity in the water. But your diver wasn't injured or killed. Few (if any) are, in saltwater. That is the point.



Agree 100%

As long as the water is always 100% salt, however in many, many, locations that is far from the case. They don't hang harbor salinity flags at most marinas as far as I know.

You don't always know you are in 100% salt water and THAT is also the point.

Stay frosty, my friend! :)
 
Agree 100%

As long as the water is always 100% salt, however in many, many, locations that is far from the case. They don't hang harbor salinity flags at most marinas as far as I know.

You don't always know you are in 100% salt water and THAT is also the point.

Stay frosty, my friend! :)

100% salt? Wouldn't that be a bit thick and difficult to move around in? I do know what you mean, but the fact it's only got a certain salt content also makes one feel safer knowing that it's going to have a reasonable content of salt regardless of storms or other factors. It's not going to turn from salt to fresh.

As to swimming in a marina slip as mentioned earlier, I'm use to that being a forbidden activity. While marinas in our area will allow divers for bottom cleaning, they won't allow swimming.
 
Hi all thanks for all of the comments and feedback. A quick update and a lesson learned. We bonded all of the thru-hulls to ground, hauled the boat and did a thorough investigation ascertaining that they were solid. In the process we discovered that all of the zincs were gone. This is a solid lesson if you are "counting on divers" who clean the bottom to review and replace as has been our rule. The boat was cleaned a day before the trip back up the coast from Marina Del Rey to San Francisco with the request to examine and replace as needed the zincs. Adding to this, once the boat had returned to her home port another diver "cleaned the bottom" (which of course had just been cleaned a week before) and did not mention anything about the status of the zincs. This is not a rash accusation about divers as a whole BUT a solid word to the wise to consider being on site, ordering and having the proper zincs in your possession and asking for completion pics. We will report back after the next couple of months on the status of the thru-hulls but I believe that between the lack of bonding and having no zincs in a very hot Marina (Marina Del Rey) that this is probably a significant part of the problem, if not it in its entirety . To the credit of Beneteau once I sent them an e-mail with the pics, they did volunteer to send new thru-hulls. Had we felt they had been compromised we would have opted for a different solution than the ones that they stock but we didn't get there. Thanks again, your feedback has been awesome and hopefully this string is a help to others. CB
 
Update: As reported we thoroughly cleaned and treated the thru-hulls, inspected them at a haul out, tied them to a ground. Our suspicion was that Marina Del Rey was hotter. We were using 220v AC at the slip, that there was some stray currents at the marina etc, etc, etc. However, within 8 weeks of doing the repairs and back in our home port (pic attached) the same thing happened.

To Beneteau's credit, after I sent them pics on Tuesday, within an hour their Sr Service advisor from Annapolis called. We discussed the situation and he is arriving in the Bay Area to be on the boat this Monday to trouble shoot.

Please stand by.
 

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Update: As reported we thoroughly cleaned and treated the thru-hulls, inspected them at a haul out, tied them to a ground. Our suspicion was that Marina Del Rey was hotter. We were using 220v AC at the slip, that there was some stray currents at the marina etc, etc, etc. However, within 8 weeks of doing the repairs and back in our home port (pic attached) the same thing happened.

To Beneteau's credit, after I sent them pics on Tuesday, within an hour their Sr Service advisor from Annapolis called. We discussed the situation and he is arriving in the Bay Area to be on the boat this Monday to trouble shoot.

Please stand by.

That is great news for you and many others. I hope he'll look objectively and also realize yours isn't an isolated issue. With all the positives of their boats and the way owners love them, it's a shame that they've let these issues remain a negative.
 
That is great news for you and many others. I hope he'll look objectively and also realize yours isn't an isolated issue. With all the positives of their boats and the way owners love them, it's a shame that they've let these issues remain a negative.

Hi BandB I am looking forward to the insights and input we can all get from the visit. Totally impressed with the responsiveness and interest from the manufacturer in partnering in looking for a solution. While making the investment flying someone across the country to really understand what's going on.
 
Hi BandB I am looking forward to the insights and input we can all get from the visit. Totally impressed with the responsiveness and interest from the manufacturer in partnering in looking for a solution. While making the investment flying someone across the country to really understand what's going on.

It is an impressive move. It's what they should be doing, but many would not. There's an issue that you as a builder don't understand, go there.
 
Anxious to learn the report.
 
Update: As reported we thoroughly cleaned and treated the thru-hulls, inspected them at a haul out, tied them to a ground. Our suspicion was that Marina Del Rey was hotter. We were using 220v AC at the slip, that there was some stray currents at the marina etc, etc, etc. However, within 8 weeks of doing the repairs and back in our home port (pic attached) the same thing happened.

To Beneteau's credit, after I sent them pics on Tuesday, within an hour their Sr Service advisor from Annapolis called. We discussed the situation and he is arriving in the Bay Area to be on the boat this Monday to trouble shoot.

Please stand by.

CeeBee:
It's encouraging to hear Beneteau has been responsive.

I've been doggedly attempting to debunk the "hot marina" myth for years, and did so when this theory was first put forth. To some extent your experience bears out the fallacy of this myth, marinas aren't "hot", boats are. While AC shore power connections may facilitate galvanic corrosion, via the green safety ground, AC power, from a marina's mains or anywhere else, does not, with very rare exceptions and often where aluminum is concerned, cause stray current corrosion. Corrosion is virtually always a DC phenomenon, either via stray current, i.e. from a battery, or galvanic, from dissimilar metals.

While you issue may have been exacerbated by a malfunctioning or absent galvanic isolator, nearby vessels whose anodes are depleted, or a deteriorated bonding system, those are likely red herrings in this analysis, they do not represent the root of the problem.

Irrespective of the hot marina issue, in your initial post you noted/showed photos of the metal in these fittings, which had turned pink in locations. If so, this means it contains zinc, and that's almost certainly the cause of the problem.

Alloys that contain more than 15% zinc (this is brass by definition and even 15% is too much IMO) should not be used for underwater and raw water plumbing (such seacocks and fittings would not meet UL 1121, and thus lack ABYC H-27 compliance). Using it and relying on the vessel's bonding system to protect these metals from corrosion and dezincification is shear folly. Once the zinc anodes are depleted, the next least noble metal, the zinc-bearing plumbing fittings, will begin to corrode. That "formula" is typical of all bonding system arrangements, however, through hull fittings and seacocks known to contain this level of zinc are far more susceptible to corrosion than those that contain little or no zinc; they should, therefore, not be used.

From an article on the subject...

"ANSI/UL 1121.8.1 The components of a through-hull fitting or sea valve shall be formed of galvanically compatible materials having the strength and resistance to corrosion necessary to withstand intended and abnormal use to which they are likely to be subjected.

ANSI/UL 1121.8.3 A part made of drawn brass or machined from brass rod containing more than 15 percent zinc shall be subjected to the 10-Day Moist Ammonia-Air Stress Cracking Test."
What's Below Your Waterline? - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS

The only exception to the zinc-bearing alloy rule is fittings that are embossed DZR, which stands for dezincification resistant. From the same article...

"Unfortunately, a huge range of alloys lies between true bronze with very little or no zinc and true brass which contains a high percentage of zinc. Two common alloys often used in marine applications are 85-5-5-5 and DZR. 85-5-5-5 contains 85 percent copper, 5 percent zinc, 5 percent lead and 5 percent silicon and can be used below the waterline. Some European manufacturers use something called DZR brass, a dezincification-resistant brass alloy. This alloy has a higher zinc composition than many other copper alloys (30 percent or more), but it also includes trace amounts of other metals meant to retard zinc corrosion or leaching. The more zinc an alloy contains, the more prone it is to dezincification, therefore, alloys with little or no zinc content are more desirable, and typically more costly. Accordingly they can be an attractive, though inferior, alternative for cost-conscious builders or do-it-yourselfers."

The fittings used in your seacock installation do not appear to be of the DZR variety, and even if they were they are clearly not working as they are dezincifying.

The only lasting solution, IMO, is to replace them with seacocks, metallic or non-metallic, that meet ABYC H-27/UL 1121 (both the hardware and the installation). Such compliant seacocks are clearly labeled by their manufacturers.
 
I've been doggedly attempting to debunk the "hot marina" myth for years, and did so when this theory was first put forth. To some extent your experience bears out the fallacy of this myth, marinas aren't "hot", boats are. While AC shore power connections may facilitate galvanic corrosion, via the green safety ground, AC power, from a marina's mains or anywhere else, does not, with very rare exceptions and often where aluminum is concerned, cause stray current corrosion.

NACE and a large number of other respected authorities have produced studies, papers, report etc. showing AC current can cause corrosion of metals. A Google search will bring them up.
 
Bonding wires connecting your high %zinc brass pseudo bronze fittings makes them act like zincs, so yeah they corrode and corrode greater due to the attached bonding wires on them.
Say you coated-sealed the outside of these things. Then they would look good on the outside, but the inside would still corrode. Although less corrosion may be occurring on the inside due to less exposure to free air oxygen.

I have a wood hull. When I got the boat, all the OEM bronze fittings I removed examined reinstalled them back as not a thing was wrong, them being in good condition and the boat was built in 1970. I had two areas where the wood delignified around the base, not bad for 45 years of constant salt water use.

I disconnected the wires to all thru hulls, but left bonding wires to everything else. The delignification is due to acid attack on wood in contact with metals long term takes decades I think to destroy wood. . I simply wire brushed the wood, and sealed with epoxy and polyurethanes. In effect the sealed wood is no longer in contact with the metals. The metals touch plastics no longer the wood.
 
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NACE and a large number of other respected authorities have produced studies, papers, report etc. showing AC current can cause corrosion of metals. A Google search will bring them up.

Proof of AC too high a saturation level in some marinas' waters: Causes can be poor on-dock electrical outlet maintenances, bad grounds, lines' under dock drooping onto water with cracked insulation, or boat extension line droops into water with somehow permeable insulation wrapping. Seems to me that in addition to possibly stray DC current aboard a boat; this stray AC current in water must have negative effects on diodes if anodes are not correctly placed/kept-up-with.

Boat Talk: How faulty wiring at marinas can be silent, swift killer | MLive.com

Back in the day (mid 1960's) - South shore LI, NY waters: For nearly a year we had a 37' wood-boat, raised deck sport fisher with cleaned-out bilge and no batts aboard; swapping Nordberg Knight gas for Perkins diesel. Zinc seemed to deteriorate same rate as with batts aboard.
 
I often wonder: With high tech capabilities for plastic material compositions and plastic part manufacturing why many boat through hull apparatus' have not been made of super-duper plastic? That would virtually eliminate diode corrosion in those cases - Correct???

Are the reasons:

Tests prove out metals are stronger, more resilient? Manufacturers try not to get into new tooling costs? Soooo many already manufactured through hull parts providing inertia as well as continued same-ol / same-ol manufacturing process momentum? Too costly for the best plastic materials to be used, in comparison to corrosion-prone metal alloys??

Seems there must be a reason! Anybody??? :popcorn:
 
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