Enforcement of NDZ Puget Sound

[Pcpete]

The whole thing is so a special interest group gets attention

When this started, it was presented as all of the boats on the sound were discharging and being bad people. Then the boating community responded by pointing out exactly where the affected proposed area exists and the reality that actually very few boats treated on board then could legally discharge most anywhere. This really made the Effluent from onboard treatment plants also illegal. My previous boat had that type system but I could also use a pumpout so it was just inconvenient.
I got curious about enforcement, not of boats equipped with sanitary systems, but of the boats not equipped. My understanding is they also made the “bucket” solution illegal because it can’t be dumped either. So I called the state agency and was directed to the subject matter expert for enforcement and asked how they were addressing the various fishing and waterski boats who would enviably be ingesting fluids and foods that would eventually become a problem for disposal. Some guys are out fishing with a case of beer that been pretty well emptied and they are peeing over the side. So, I asked, how is that going to be addressed? After some difficult moments the answer was “if you see something, say something”. To me, that meant much publicity about nothing except I needed to replace my six gallon system with a regular holding tank.
On my current boat I’ve removed the Y valve and have a failsafe toggle switch cover which may or may not pass muster, but it does meet the two step activation requirement.
The foot shuffling by enforcement will go on because there really isn’t an effective way to totally enforce all of the laws and regulations and that has to be really frustrating.

 

[Nickair]

Now I remember over 40 years ago, the CG would ticket a boat in Salish or Puget areas, if the common installed black water “Y” valve was not secured to the “Tank” position, rather than having free access to the overboard position.

So why wouldn’t the CG be able to enforce this issue?

 

[Pcpete]

Four years ago we were hailed for a safety check in the San Juan’s and even though I had the legal type treatment system the young fellow couldn’t find it in his paperwork and my lte coverage couldn’t connect well enough for me to get to the ruling stating the grandfathering of the systems at that time. As he had never heard of an onboard treatment plant, I got out the manual and explained the whole system and offered to get Marine Sanitation on the phone to explain why I was legal. This was prior to the total shutdown of even urinating over the side. I agreed to close the thruhull and that was the only action taken. I later followed up with an email to the base CO including a copy of the official ruling and asked that it be passed on to his boat crews.

 

[STOWAWAY]

I know slot of this thread is the concern of the NDZ and inforcement of the rules
Not sure why as boaters any of us would not enforce upon ourselves a no discharge policy. Just makes sense not to pollute if we don't have to in this day and age.
My guess is that a few bucks saved is the only reason to discharge direct to the waters. Only exception would be trans ocean voyages of more than the capacity of a large holding tank. All coastal and inland cruisers can plan stops to have their tanks pumped IMO.
If your tank is not large enough to handle a few days get one that is.
I don't see much difference in discharging and throwing bags of garbage in the waters.
I am not trying to point fingers at anyone but there seems to be a tone on the forum that it is acceptable to discharge if there is no law against it. Hoping that I am wrong in reading between the lines.

 

[rslifkin]

I think the issue is that in some areas, there just aren't very many places to get a tank pumped and some are often out of service. So finding a place to get the tank pumped can be a problem.

 

[X24]

Hello, as per the Constitution of the US. No one has the right to search a private residence with out a warrant. This includes your vessel, boat, yacht or automobile. HOWEVER, there is one exception, and that is the US Coast Guard. They have the right to search any vessel at will. All Mariners should take the time and study the laws. There are reasons why the Coast Guard can search a vessel, there are VERY good reasons why everyone else needs a warrant. You do not have to let anyone into your car or your boat simply because they say so. That is why we have laws and The Constitution. It’s very good reading if you choose to get educated, and you will cultivate a new and deep respect for our Founding Fathers .

 

[tiltrider1]

No one, from the PNW, is talking about direct discharge or holding tank dumping in the NDZ. It has been illegal for years to do so. At the time the laws went into affect, there were also rules put into affect for treatment systems. The NDZ has now banned those systems. This doesn’t sit well with those who spent thousands of dollars to install these systems. There is also some confusion about which rules apply to securing Y valves, holding tank valves, and treatment system valves.

 

[Nickair]

No one, from the PNW, is talking about direct discharge or holding tank dumping in the NDZ. It has been illegal for years to do so. At the time the laws went into affect, there were also rules put into affect for treatment systems. The NDZ has now banned those systems. This doesn’t sit well with those who spent thousands of dollars to install these systems. There is also some confusion about which rules apply to securing Y valves, holding tank valves, and treatment system valves.

Well written.
Overboard discharge of black water has been banned for many decades unless beyond the 12 mile off shore point, I think? Systems like lectra-San? and other treatment systems allowed discharge, although not now with the NDZ.

 

[psneeld]

Hello, as per the Constitution of the US. No one has the right to search a private residence with out a warrant. This includes your vessel, boat, yacht or automobile. HOWEVER, there is one exception, and that is the US Coast Guard. They have the right to search any vessel at will. All Mariners should take the time and study the laws. There are reasons why the Coast Guard can search a vessel, there are VERY good reasons why everyone else needs a warrant. You do not have to let anyone into your car or your boat simply because they say so. That is why we have laws and The Constitution. It’s very good reading if you choose to get educated, and you will cultivate a new and deep respect for our Founding Fathers .

What say you to this and many other state enforcement laws. I think there is a difference in "boarding" and search in the eyes of many courts upholding some LE to boarding for certain things.


"Enforcement

Washington state park rangers, Fish and Wildlife officers, city police officers, deputy sheriffs, and all other officers with law enforcement authority enforce the boating laws of Washington. The U.S. Coast Guard has enforcement authority on all waters under the jurisdiction of the United States.
Officers have the authority to stop and board your vessel and direct it to a suitable pier or anchorage in order to check for compliance with state and federal laws."

https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=79A.60.100
https://www.boat-ed.com/washington/handbook/page/50/Enforcement/

 

[ksanders]

I know slot of this thread is the concern of the NDZ and inforcement of the rules
Not sure why as boaters any of us would not enforce upon ourselves a no discharge policy. Just makes sense not to pollute if we don't have to in this day and age.
My guess is that a few bucks saved is the only reason to discharge direct to the waters. Only exception would be trans ocean voyages of more than the capacity of a large holding tank. All coastal and inland cruisers can plan stops to have their tanks pumped IMO.
If your tank is not large enough to handle a few days get one that is.
I don't see much difference in discharging and throwing bags of garbage in the waters.
I am not trying to point fingers at anyone but there seems to be a tone on the forum that it is acceptable to discharge if there is no law against it. Hoping that I am wrong in reading between the lines.

Your post shows that you simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND the issue.

The NDZ ONLY affects those boaters that have spent the money and time to install a system that treats human waste and removes all harmful components.

Frankly what my boat discharges from my one and sometimes two people onboard is of better quality than the pipe coming from any one of the MANY municipal treatment systems.

It is not like throwing garbage overboard, and it would be great if you learned about the actual issue.

 

[DDW]

That might be practical in close in urban areas where distances are short and pumpout facilities plentiful. It may surprise you to learn that description does not fit a lot of the world, even parts of the USA and Canada. For example find a pumpout facility in Newfoundland. In the BC midcoast and SE Alaska, there are few pumpout facilities and the run out to 3 miles offshore can take days and be dangerous.

In a place like Puget Sound (which does fit that description) the best way to ensure compliance is to make compliance easy. In SF bay, any operating marina has to maintain pumpout facilities, and those facilities must be free to use. Compliance is very high as a result.

 

[catalinajack]

And pretty much that is what we all do.

I know slot of this thread is the concern of the NDZ and inforcement of the rules
Not sure why as boaters any of us would not enforce upon ourselves a no discharge policy. Just makes sense not to pollute if we don't have to in this day and age.
My guess is that a few bucks saved is the only reason to discharge direct to the waters. Only exception would be trans ocean voyages of more than the capacity of a large holding tank. All coastal and inland cruisers can plan stops to have their tanks pumped IMO.
If your tank is not large enough to handle a few days get one that is.
I don't see much difference in discharging and throwing bags of garbage in the waters.
I am not trying to point fingers at anyone but there seems to be a tone on the forum that it is acceptable to discharge if there is no law against it. Hoping that I am wrong in reading between the lines.

 

[catalinajack]

Well written.
Overboard discharge of black water has been banned for many decades unless beyond the 12 mile off shore point, I think? Systems like lectra-San? and other treatment systems allowed discharge, although not now with the NDZ.

Three miles, not twelve.

 

[psneeld]

I know slot of this thread is the concern of the NDZ and inforcement of the rules
Not sure why as boaters any of us would not enforce upon ourselves a no discharge policy. Just makes sense not to pollute if we don't have to in this day and age.
My guess is that a few bucks saved is the only reason to discharge direct to the waters. Only exception would be trans ocean voyages of more than the capacity of a large holding tank. All coastal and inland cruisers can plan stops to have their tanks pumped IMO.
If your tank is not large enough to handle a few days get one that is.
I don't see much difference in discharging and throwing bags of garbage in the waters.
I am not trying to point fingers at anyone but there seems to be a tone on the forum that it is acceptable to discharge if there is no law against it. Hoping that I am wrong in reading between the lines.

What's worse? Getting pumped out and having my waste processed and dumped with millions of other gallons in one spot continuously or having a properly treated quart or so at a time flushed under my boat...you can neither see it or smell it.

I have been at marinas where boats going to the pump out regularly hit other boats trying to get there in lousy weather because their holding tanks are overflowing....and how many of them discharge a built of untreated sewage till they can get pumped? And when it gets to the sewage plant, its released untreated into the sound because of a malfunction or rainwater overflow.

 

[Cortez]

And when it gets to the sewage plant, its released untreated into the sound because of a malfunction or rainwater overflow.

In Olympia there were often "spills" of several hundrend thousand gallons of sewage into the bay. Of course, the boaters were always blamed for "the smell" even when the sewer district had admitted to being the culprit.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

When you run your engine (s) are not also polluting the water?

I know slot of this thread is the concern of the NDZ and inforcement of the rules
Not sure why as boaters any of us would not enforce upon ourselves a no discharge policy. Just makes sense not to pollute if we don't have to in this day and age.
My guess is that a few bucks saved is the only reason to discharge direct to the waters. Only exception would be trans ocean voyages of more than the capacity of a large holding tank. All coastal and inland cruisers can plan stops to have their tanks pumped IMO.
If your tank is not large enough to handle a few days get one that is.
I don't see much difference in discharging and throwing bags of garbage in the waters.
I am not trying to point fingers at anyone but there seems to be a tone on the forum that it is acceptable to discharge if there is no law against it. Hoping that I am wrong in reading between the lines.

 

[Nickair]

Three miles, not twelve.

Correction: Not 12 miles. 12 miles is the ATDZ.
I meant a boat needs to be at least 3 miles off shore for black water discharge.

 

[SteveK]

You guys in Puget Sound sure have it rough.
Here is an excerpt from our regs. No wonder so many of you come up here to so your cruising in spite of many great cruising grounds.

4. In the event that a pump-out facility is not available, there are conditions under which untreated waste may be discharged:
i. The discharge is made at a distance of at least three nautical miles from shore while the vessel is en route at the fastest possible speed, or
ii. If it is not possible to meet the requirements of sub paragraph (i) because the vessel is located in waters that are less than 6 miles from shore to shore, the discharge is made while the vessel is en route at a speed of at least four knots or, if the discharge is not feasible at that speed, the discharge is made:
a. During an ebb tide, while the vessel is en route at the fastest feasible speed and into the deepest waters that are located farthest from shore, or
b. While the vessel is en route at the fastest feasible speed and into the deepest and fastest moving waters that are located the farthest from shore

 

[SteveK]

Does anyone know the ratio of pump out station v. boats with holding tanks in Puget Sound.
By my estimate it would take average 30 minutes to tie up, hook up and leave per pump out. In 24 hours that would accommodate 48 boats. (I know they probably do not operate 24/7). Usually during cruising season most boats are out at the same time, returning at the same time. Line ups must become interesting. With most marinas having in excess of 300 boats how is it possible to pump out at your convenience.


Do Boaters write these rules? ? (sarcasm emoji)

 

[slowgoesit]

Do Boaters write these rules? �� (sarcasm emoji)

No, they don't. For example, check out the current issues with FL and GA anchoring . . .

The "Golden Rule": He who has the Gold, makes the rules, ie buying off legislators to pass laws to benefit the few . . . who buy more laws that benefit themselves . .

God, when did I get to be such a Cynic?!?