engine electronic controls = bad?

[catalinajack]

That makes the assumption that electronic parts are a greater waiting period than non-electronic but I remember plenty of people waiting for parts all my life. Waiting for an carburetor or an alternator to be rebuilt or crankshaft or who knows what.



While I boated on freshwater and gas engines that weren't as advanced as today, I feel fortunate to have never boated with diesels and on the coasts prior to electronics and to common rail and other advancements. That way these are the good old days to me and I don't long for something in the past that by reflection seems far more idyllic than it ever truly was.

Geez, BandB, I almost always agree with everything you have to say about anything but not this. I have absolutely no fear of electronically controlled anything. At the same time I have a pair of those luddite Lehman 120s. Incredibly simple and they just work. Maintenance items are no different than those of "modern" engines, the peripherals, coolers, exchangers, raw water pumps, valve adjustments, etc. But, damn, these engines are brainless. Start 'em up, go, shut 'em down.

As for electronic throttles, I have some fear but it wouldn't stop me from owning a boat so equipped. I did, however, once follow a boat into a lock that crashed into the side of the lock and another boat. That boat was not under command. It was later found that the voltage supply had dropped below that which is required for the "computer" and it locked to the last command, in forward gear and and higher than idle RPM at just the wrong moment. In that case it was design error. The 12V supply to the controls was the bow thruster battery. Yup, the thruster had been used enough such that the voltage was insufficient.

 

[catalinajack]

Sophistication that makes sense for large engines might not be cost/value effective for small engines. Buy all means, get that 10% fuel savings on your 1200HP diesels. but, don't mess with my 29 HP 100ci diesels. By that, I mean legislature.

OTOH, can't we do something about the noisy, smelly, week wackers??

Weed wackers? Yes, battery-powered units are marketed today that do the job quite well except for maybe long day use by commercial maintainers.

 

[catalinajack]

I'd be surprised why anyone would buy gas powered small lawn tools today. Regarding electronic controlled engines, which would you prefer in your car? A modern engine with electronic ignition and fuel injection or an engine from the 70's with a carbuerator and mechanical choke and mechanically controlled timing, points, rotor, etc.

Carburetors have ALWAYS been a PITA. If I were to own a gasser, it would NOT have a carburetor.

 

[catalinajack]

Me, for one. Try felling and bucking up a hardwood tree with a battery saw, far away from any recharge source. I expect they are great for small homeowner jobs, and would make good pruning saws, but when it comes to cutting anything big, it's hard to beat a 5-8hp saw.

For some purposes, battery-powered just doesn't do the job. That is why the total elimination of fossil fuel powered anything is just a pipe dream for the foreseeable future. Perhaps, even probably, sometime in the future but not in my lifetime.

 

[rslifkin]

As for electronic throttles, I have some fear but it wouldn't stop me from owning a boat so equipped. I did, however, once follow a boat into a lock that crashed into the side of the lock and another boat. That boat was not under command. It was later found that the voltage supply had dropped below that which is required for the "computer" and it locked to the last command, in forward gear and and higher than idle RPM at just the wrong moment. In that case it was design error. The 12V supply to the controls was the bow thruster battery. Yup, the thruster had been used enough such that the voltage was insufficient.

Things like that are why I want nothing to do with most of the currently available electronic throttle setups. There's no reason they can't work well, but it's clear that at least some of the setups sold for recreational boats just aren't robust enough.

Taking power for the controls from somewhere other than the engine's power source is a bad idea, but the controls also should be far more tolerant of varying input voltage. If they won't run below, say, 11 volts, that's a problem. There's no reason they can't have internal voltage regulation that will keep them working down to 6 volts, for example. By the time you get that low, an electronically controlled engine is probably no longer running. And I'd also like to see a little better integration to the engine and trans themselves, so that if the control signal is lost, things return to idle in neutral immediately.

 

[catalinajack]

I disagree with that as a premise. They may be simpler to you or simpler to some mechanics. But to recently trained professionals I don't think that's the case. Diagnostics of current engines can be facilitated so due to the electronics capabilities. Now it does require special equipment but it sure can streamline things. We have posts constantly about bad mechanics who didn't fix the right things or don't know what they're doing and the vast majority of those are on those "simpler" older mechanical motors. Then a few are mechanics without current diagnostic equipment or training trying to guess on newer. It is very different today and much of mechanical is now electronic and a different skillset but that doesn't mean mechanical motors are all that simple themselves. Not that I intend to learn to service either, but I could learn the electronic versions far quicker than I could the mechanical versions.

BandB, today mechanics are nit true mechanics. They know nothing more than what the computer diagnostics tell them. They are mere parts replacers. Skillets? Please. And then there is the entire "right-to-repair" issue. Farmers HATE electronic engines. Consider owning a $600K combine that craps out in the middle of a harvest and having to wait for the John Deere "mechanic " having to drive 100 miles just to plug in his computer, then driving back for a part, then coming back to install it, etc, etc. Same with Caterpillar. Cat and Deere refuse to divulge their programming such that owner's can self-diagnose. Mechanics. My eye!

 

[catalinajack]

Notice I did say "small" tools. I agree that I probably wouldn't try clearing a building lot with a battery powered chainsaw, but for the avg homeowner that has to cut up a felled limb once a year, battery power is probably better than a seldom used gas motor. My chainsaw is one of the hardest things to start that I own. I still own some corded drills but probably haven't used them in 10 years. Battery is so much more convenient and gets the job done. I'm not drilling for hours. I'm not quite ready for a battery lawnmower or snowblower, but maybe in the future. I just replaced my Craftsman 2-stroke weed whacker/hedge trimmer with a DeWalt electric. It's not only easier to start and use, it's lighter AND more powerful than the gas (cuts bigger branches). I wear out before the battery does. Next up is probably a hand-held leaf blower. Most manufacturers are making a whole line of tools that can share the same battery. Cheaper and makes more sense to me than a garage full of devices each with their own small gas engine.

My 40yo Stihl chainsaw, extensively used over the years, starts quickly to this day. The only repair ever done was to replace a worn-out throttle control. Cost was $35.

 

[backinblue]

My 40yo Stihl chainsaw, extensively used over the years, starts quickly to this day. The only repair ever done was to replace a worn-out throttle control. Cost was $35.

I think the key is "extensively used". That's not common for many of us.

 

[catalinajack]

Agreed. I love all my battery hand-held power tools. Even the small chain saws have a place. I could easily end up with one myself to keep in the side-by-side for clearing trail obstructions. But I can't imagine trying to cut up a 12" hardwood tree, let along something bigger. Even if the battery lasted, it would just be too slow. Now if you only cut up one such tree in your lifetime, going slow isn't an issue. But if you cut a couple per year, let along a couple per day, those 45cc to 85cc chain saws start looking pretty good.

Try a Milwaukee battery-powered impact driver. More powerful than the best of air-powered. And no compressor or hose to get in the way!

 

[OldDan1943]

Taking power for the controls from somewhere other than the engine's power source is a bad idea, but the controls also should be far more tolerant of varying input voltage. If they won't run below, say, 11 volts, that's a problem. There's no reason they can't have internal voltage regulation that will keep them working down to 6 volts, for example. By the time you get that low, an electronically controlled engine is probably no longer running. And I'd also like to see a little better integration to the engine and trans themselves, so that if the control signal is lost, things return to idle in neutral immediately.

RS, I will disagree with you. I had a weak start battery, bring it into the dock, used the bow thruster, engine shut down at about 10.6volts.
I had the bow thruster moved to the house batteries, added one more 4D to the house bank and all it well. Gotta keep the main engine running....

 

[rslifkin]

RS, I will disagree with you. I had a weak start battery, bring it into the dock, used the bow thruster, engine shut down at about 10.6volts.
I had the bow thruster moved to the house batteries, added one more 4D to the house bank and all it well. Gotta keep the main engine running....

I agree, there's a limit to voltage before the engine electronics won't run. I'd like to see that be a little lower than 10.6 volts, but as long as you've got a dedicated engine start battery (the way things should be designed), once you get under 11 volts things are going to keep dropping fast most likely.

My concern is mostly that some of the controls out there are more voltage sensitive than most electronic engines. So you can end up in a situation where you've got low supply voltage, but still enough to keep the engines running. And the controls go offline anyway due to the low voltage. And potentially leave an engine in gear in the process, as there's no "return to idle / neutral" failsafe if the controls drop out. Think about your situation if the engine had stayed running, but the voltage drop had taken out your engine controls, leaving the engine stuck in gear until you shut it down.

 

[OldDan1943]

I agree, there's a limit to voltage before the engine electronics won't run. I'd like to see that be a little lower than 10.6 volts, but as long as you've got a dedicated engine start battery (the way things should be designed), once you get under 11 volts things are going to keep dropping fast most likely.

My concern is mostly that some of the controls out there are more voltage sensitive than most electronic engines. So you can end up in a situation where you've got low supply voltage, but still enough to keep the engines running. And the controls go offline anyway due to the low voltage. And potentially leave an engine in gear in the process, as there's no "return to idle / neutral" failsafe if the controls drop out. Think about your situation if the engine had stayed running, but the voltage drop had taken out your engine controls, leaving the engine stuck in gear until you shut it down.

RS, when the engine stops due to low voltage, everything stops.

 

[rslifkin]

RS, when the engine stops due to low voltage, everything stops.

Agreed. And that's the safe failure mode. I'm thinking of the failure mode where the controls drop out before the engine does, which seems to be a concern with some of the electronic control setups out there. That's the failure mode that should never happen.

 

[backinblue]

I had GPS/MFD drop out due to low voltage but engine was still running and fine. Not sure why voltage should drop when motor is running. In my case a breaker tripped and wasn't charging the house bank. Worse case, start the generator?

 

[BandB]

Geez, BandB, I almost always agree with everything you have to say about anything but not this. I have absolutely no fear of electronically controlled anything. At the same time I have a pair of those luddite Lehman 120s. Incredibly simple and they just work. Maintenance items are no different than those of "modern" engines, the peripherals, coolers, exchangers, raw water pumps, valve adjustments, etc. But, damn, these engines are brainless. Start 'em up, go, shut 'em down.

But not all older engines perform like yours and when one needs parts, they can be difficult to find. We have MAN engines with all the electronics that are as much plug and play as can be. Never have problems with them. We do adhere to the schedules for maintenance though. I'm just saying problems are not limited to any one type or era.

Now early adoption of all things scares me. I remember a car my parents had which had the best of everything, all modern, but a bad year for Chrysler in many ways and this Dodge would drive perfectly 99% of the time. Then out of nowhere, with no warning, and often in a turn, everything would shut down. Nothing electric or electronic remaining, not lights, not radio, not engine. After several failed efforts they finally replaced every electronic component on it, a warranty claim something like 1/3 the price of the car. No more problems, but they never figured out which component was failing and then destroying all the others. Ironically Chrysler was the early adopter of electronics in outboards and a few years later I spoke to the owner of what had been their largest dealership in the state. He had an outboard that would run fine for 20 minutes and then run about 1/3 speed. Every electronic component would test bad from CD unit or whatever it was called to voltage regulator. He'd replace, repeat, same thing. Chrysler replaced the engine and never figured out the problem.

I also understand the pain of farmers. Their knowledge of engines was rendered useless and the first iterations of new equipment were nightmares but they had no choice but to buy electronic versions. Meanwhile the dealers and their mechanics were equally lost. The initial changes are horrific.

 

[ABfish]

My experience with construction equipment and heavy trucks is that electronic engine controls have become increasingly sophisticated and reliable. The power production and economy relative to 30 years ago is remarkable.

On the other hand, electronic controls related to emissions cause endless headaches for owners and mechanics. The emissions standards have ramped up faster than the technology has evolved. DEF, DPF, EGR, regen, etc. are regularly cursed in the construction and trucking businesses. One of my contractor buddies had four pieces of equipment down in one day due to faulty DEF level sensors. The sensors are made by Bosch but used by several OEM's. And the sensors are currently in short supply.

 

[FF]

In diesel cars and trucks the best thing electronic injection has done is to lower the noise level.
Our newer MH (M-B 500 Sprinter chassis ) is as quiet inside as my 80's era Caddy.

On a vessel sound proofing material is costly , but works well and requires no maint.

On a new build I would choose 2 engines , one common tranny & drive.

The smaller engine for cruising would be under what ever the air police allow for a pure mechanical, and the 2x or 3x bigger inshore go fast defueler could be electronic as the boat could still function at displacement speeds .

 

[phillippeterson]

….defueler ….. .

. Love it!

 

[Hippocampus]

How many here have the leaving protocol while still anchored or tied of
Checking battery bank voltages off shore power.
Running thrusters briefly to see they work and move the boat
A brief burst in forward and reverse
Checking cooling water splash
Moving rudder lock to lock
Checking alternator and/or genset .
MFDs seem more sensitive to voltage drops. Shouldn’t winches, windlasses, thrusters and other very high momentary draws be on a different bank than engine controls. Same as with your other key electronics? Thought it wise and fairly standard to have a separate battery for each thruster. One for bow also sized to power the windlass. My other big draw is the Seakeeper. We don’t run it without the genset.
Don’t understand the voltage drop argument. If that’s an issue to me it means you need to redesign your electrical system and battery banks or you’re not load testing periodically. Agree SH-t happens but would think that would be very rare. You should know if you’re not charging or a bank went bad before any tight situation. At our engine checks also glance at our electrical panel before going back up to the pilot house or flybridge. Would think you’d have sufficient advance notice to avoid major boo boos in close quarters. Believe most folks check thruster and throttle function just before entering a docking situation.
On prior boats there was a mechanical linkage for throttle and shut off. Worse comes to worst you could control revs and shut off flipping a lever on the engine. You didn’t need to blanket or otherwise prevent air coming in nor turn off fuel intake and wait. Look at my current engine (Cummins QSC 540hp) there’s no such possibility. Agree that’s scary.

 

[sunchaser]

Are today's electronic shifter and engine combinations with computer chips that are bedeviling controllers?

I went car shopping yesterday and four different companies are severely impacted by chip shortages. Weird times for imbedded controller logic new and legacy systems. One builder is getting $20-30K above sticker.

 

[OldDan1943]

On a new build I would choose 2 engines , one common tranny & drive.

The smaller engine for cruising would be under what ever the air police allow for a pure mechanical, and the 2x or 3x bigger inshore go fast defueler could be electronic as the boat could still function at displacement speeds .

NOW, that is an interesting configuration!!!
Should work well provided you remember to put the "off" engine in neutral.

Has anyone seen such a configuration ???

 

[backinblue]

Are today's electronic shifter and engine combinations with computer chips that are bedeviling controllers?

I went car shopping yesterday and four different companies are severely impacted by chip shortages. Weird times for imbedded controller logic new and legacy systems. One builder is getting $20-30K above sticker.

Basic supply and demand, just like houses and boats

 

[mvweebles]

NOW, that is an interesting configuration!!!
Should work well provided you remember to put the "off" engine in neutral.

Has anyone seen such a configuration ???

I knew a guy who converted an old steel Navy Yard Tug ("Tussler" was around 65-feet long). The the transmission was built for up to four 6-71's mated two-by-two to a single shaft. DD's of WW2 vintage came in mirrored configuration so each had their service points on the outside. Could barely slip a piece of paper between. The then-current config had two engines. Boat had two old generators, both were 3-71's as I recall. Engine room was more or less a floating machine shop - parts inventory was pretty easy given the interchangeability of the engines.

Peter

 

[FF]

"Has anyone seen such a configuration ???"

Common on landing craft since WWII , but they used matched engines , which makes sense from a spare parts source.

 

[OldDan1943]

"Has anyone seen such a configuration ???"

Common on landing craft since WWII , but they used matched engines , which makes sense from a spare parts source.

They both turned in the same direction?

 

[backinblue]

I've never heard of this before. I think it makes sense, but can someone explain how 2 engines connect to 1 shaft and also is it meant to only use one engine at a time or both?

 

[mvweebles]

I've never heard of this before. I think it makes sense, but can someone explain how 2 engines connect to 1 shaft and also is it meant to only use one engine at a time or both?

The one I described above had a large single transmission with four cover-plates where an engine could be bolted-up - two in front of the transmission (oriented parallel with the boat), and two behind the transmission. I'd guess there was some sort of clutch to engage each individually. Tussler, the converted Navy yard tug, had only two engines mated to the transmission (the forward two spaces). I didn't look closely enough, but I'm sure there was a simple mechanical splitter to control the throttles. Forward/Reverse/Neutral control on the transmission would be fairly simple too.

Overall, a pretty simple and slick setup. Adding and subtracting engines in a WWII vintage military yard was likely a quick/simple routine. I wish I could find a picture....

Peter

EDIT - Allison T40, a WW2-era gearbox for turbo-prop aircraft. Same concept, though more complicated as it drove counter-rotating props.

BTW - Wiki article mentions a harmonic vibration problem that caused a redesign. Harmonic vibration is a perniscious problem - its a fairly common design issue in marinizing larger (20kw) generators. Ships often have vibration issues. There are experts who do nothing but diagnose vibration issues.

 

[rgano]

I've never heard of this before. I think it makes sense, but can someone explain how 2 engines connect to 1 shaft and also is it meant to only use one engine at a time or both?

On the 80-foot Yard Patrol used for training at the Naval Academy a million years ago, we had twin propellers each powered by a pair of GM 671s mated to a transmission. I was engineer qualified and got to know a bit about them. If I needed to have an engine shutdown for whatever reason, I simply flipped a hydraulic lever on the transmission corresponding to that engine to disengage the engine and shut it down.

 

[backinblue]

On the 80-foot Yard Patrol used for training at the Naval Academy a million years ago, we had twin propellers each powered by a pair of GM 671s mated to a transmission. I was engineer qualified and got to know a bit about them. If I needed to have an engine shutdown for whatever reason, I simply flipped a hydraulic lever on the transmission corresponding to that engine to disengage the engine and shut it down.

Thanks Rich. Does that mean that only 1 engine per prop was used in normal operation and the other engine as backup? Or can they both combine to power each prop? Sorry if that's a stupid question, this is new to me, just trying to understand.

 

[rgano]

Thanks Rich. Does that mean that only 1 engine per prop was used in normal operation and the other engine as backup? Or can they both combine to power each prop? Sorry if that's a stupid question, this is new to me, just trying to understand.

This same arrangement is used on the post-WWII 70-foot LCM-8 (Mile 8) landing craft, and in both cases all four engines were run to achieve 12-cylinder power per shaft. The tranny arrangement provided for flexibility in the event of engine casualty. I am sure the civilian market was not considered in this design with the military being unconcerned about economy but more concerned about flexibility/redundancy with battle damage. We carried two Mike 8's aboard the amphibious ship where I was first lieutenant and luckily had room for two more when we found two of them abandoned off Vung Tao as we evacuated Saigon with no oil in the sumps and zip fuel. after 'oiling" them up and adding a tad of fuel, I had ours moved all the way forward and rammed the two orphans with their extra ballistic bulges into the well deck and retuned them to their owner, the US Army.