Exterior trim

[Woodsong]

It's winter time and judging from the replies in the "let me help you sell your boat" thread AKA the airplane history thread *

I want to give you guys additional opportunities to chime in on VIM (Very Important Matters). *Soon I am taking our trawler down the river to get her topsides painted. *I was to have done it already but schedule conflicts have kept us from going yet and well, each week I wait is another week I've knocked out some small stuff that needed to be done at some point so I am doing that stuff until we go to get painted.
The previous owner removed the small trim pieces, which I assume were strips of teak, that covered the junction of the flybridge fiberglass with the house roof/flybridge sole and removed said trim pieces around the entire bridge ("exterior" that you can see from the dock, and the "interior" of the bridge, i.e. around the built in seating, etc.).
Two things I know:
1) I am not going back with any wood whatsoever. *Sorry. *I have more than enough exterior teak to keep me varnishing without needing to add more!
2) I want an affordable option that looks good and functions well.


The questions at hand:
A) what material would you go with for this small exterior trim?
B) would you install before painting or after painting the topsides?
C) best installation method?


Right now I have been pondering the PVC type synthetic trim available in the local big box home improvement store. *That stuff is designed for exterior use, doesn't rot, can be cut/shaped just like wood. *Cost is pretty affordable. *I am not looking for an "architectural element" in this trim....just need something to cover the junction and do so quietly so to speak. *They make a pvc flat trim stock that is 1/4" thick by about 1.5" tall...picture a smooth piece of lattice without any woodgrain and that is essentially what I am talking about. *I am thinking this may be my best alternative? *If I go something heavier like a 1x2 (which is actually 3/4 x 1.5") I think it will look too heavy.


On the painting, my thought is to install after topsides are painted but have the trim on the boat and painted prior to installing. *This way the trim will match the topsides. *If I install the trim prior to painting then obviously that small bit of fiberglass beneath the trim will not get painted. *


On installation..i am not wild about nailing or screwing it all in place since it's exterior. *Interior part of the flybridge could easily be done with 4200 or similar adhesive that is removable and I could build braces across the bridge to hold the trim in place until it sets up. *Problem will be how to get it to sit in place to set up on the curved exterior portion of the front of the flybridge (i.e. below the venturi in front of the bridge helm).




So come ye, speak yer mind. *I am looking for the best exterior trim that is not wood. *

-- Edited by Woodsong on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 10:45:14 PM

 

[Marin]

First, I would paint first and then put the trim on. Even if you don't use wood trim, you should bed whatever you install to prevent water from getting underneath it and migrating into the boat's structure through the screw holes. Dolfinite is a good bedding compound for this as it makes it easy to remove the trim later if you need to. Dolfinite is available in white as well as the traditional "natural" light brown color.

You might find that new wood trim is the easiest to make. There's nothing that says it has to be varnished however. You can saturate the new trim pieces with CPES to seal the wood, then prime and paint however you want. If you elect to do this I wouldn't use teak. It's way expensive if nothing else. American Marine used painted mahagony for the exterior window frames on its Grand Banks boats even after they switched to fiberglass. Easy wood to work with and if you seal it with CPES before priming and painting it will be pretty much impervious to moisture.

UHMW is a very durable material but it's slippery and so may be hard to paint plus it's pretty expensive. But if you could saw your trim pieces out of it and it was the right color on its own it could be a very long-lived solution.

 

[Moonstruck]

A couple of things, Tony.* I would make sure that whatever trim you use is compatible with your paint if you will be painting it.* You should paint it for UV protection if nothing else.

We use alot of PVC exterior trim, but don't mill it.* It would probably be better to run it through a shaper and round off the top edge to meet the flat surface.* This should keep water and dirt from accumulating in a crevice.* I think that I would put it on before painting by gluing (make sure the glue is compatible) and caulking neatly with something like Boat Life.* If done right it should look like it is molded into bridge.* Star Board is good and expensive, and I don't think it paints well.

Remember the solid surface on PVC trim is not very thick, so shaping it may not work.* I would buy a small piece and see how it goes.

 

[markpierce]

Steel.* You can always paint it a wood color, if desired.

 

[Woodsong]

markpierce wrote:

*

Steel.* You can always paint it a wood color, if desired.

*

Now that is a material I must confess i did NOT consider until now! *

Don- good points on paint compatibility. *Marin, I thought about wood but really would like to stick with something that won't rot. *Starboard is WAY too expensive. *The stupid pad of starboard I got for under my windlass when we redid the foredeck before coming to TN cost like $125! *crazy.
I bought a piece of pvc trim earlier this afternoon...gonna take it up to the boat next time and see what it looks like. *Also bought the material for the new silverware drawer I am building in the galley and the material for the new 2nd berth I'm going to build in the forward stateroom. *Merry Christmas to me! *

*



-- Edited by Woodsong on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 12:05:06 AM

 

[Marin]

Woodsong wrote:Marin, I thought about wood but really would like to stick with something that won't rot.

If you paint a piece of unfinished wood with CPES it won't ever rot.* CPES soaks into the upper layers of wood cells, fills them, and seals them permanently as long as there is some sort of finish on the wood.* CPES, like most epoxies, is not UV-resistant so needs something-- varnish, paint, etc.--- to keep it in the dark.* But CPES is the main tool of the trade with the wood GB crowd.**We use it on all our exteriorand interior*wood prior to finishing.* It's no good on wood that already has a finish on it, but if you're going back to bare wood or starting with new wood, it's terrific.

 

[Phil Fill]

I always varnish before painting so if paint gets on the vanished teak wood its protected and wipes off. **Then paint, roll and tip, then another coat of varnish and a finish with caulking.* That way it does not matter if you install before or after if the wood pieces are vanished.* If small piece use small nails with 5200, when 5200 is dry remove the nails, fill the holes and vanish again.* Just make sure the wood can not absorb the paint as its a bugger to get paint out of the wood grain.*

If the wood is varnish very seldom do I have to tape as the paint can be easily whipped off. The same is true of caulking.* Paint thinner will remove caulking before it dries.**I use oak that is stained to match the the teak when replacing or adding.* Minwax polyurethane has a color that matches. teak.* Oak is hard and durable.* Mahogany can be used also but oak grain is close to teak just lighter in color.
*

*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 12:16:01 AM

-- Edited by Phil Fill on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 12:17:58 AM

 

[FF]

"Right now I have been pondering the PVC type synthetic trim available in the local big box home improvement store. That stuff is designed for exterior use, doesn't rot, can be cut/shaped just like wood. Cost is pretty affordable. "

WE have been using Azek as trim and love it.

It is uniform inside so a cut piece looks just like a factory piece.

Not all brands are the same.

 

[ARoss]

I had a similar issue when I bought my boat 4-5 years ago. I went with the Big Box pvc trim, with small ss screws countersunk to make a flat surface, then covered the whole thing with red boat stripe tape. No fuss, no muss, and the tape holds up well to UV.

Only thing I did to the trim was to put a ~10 degree bevel on the bottom side so that it'd lie flatter against the bulkhead.

The "interior" of the flybridge structure still has the original teak.

 

[carvendive]

Curved instillations - especially those that you can't brace - you will have to experiment.

If you are using something thin (1/4") first try tape. I use the 2" wide boxing tape as it sticks well and if you take it off within 24 hrs it usually does not leave a glue (if painting after I'd still wipe it down with acetone just to make sure).

Next would be hot melt glue. I use this to install corian. Use the hot melt to glue a brace to the surface next to the area you are going to install the piece. Then run a shim between it and the trim piece to bring it into place. You would have to fabricate multiple braces to glue down. I use 2x2 or 3x3 plywood bases with a L shaped piece of plywood attached to it. To remove it, use a block of wood positioned against the 2x2 base so that you can hit the 2x2 base sideways to shear it from the deck. Also by using the wood block you can lift the struck end away from the deck so that your hammer or mallet stays well away from the deck.
NOTE: this works well on Granit, Corian and Marble. I don't think I'd use this method on a fiberglass deck that has the textured overlay but I would do it on smooth areas. Definately BEFORE painting.

You probably already know this but if you (or anyone) decide to use wood, use wood that has not been kiln dried. Get your curving wood from a wooden boat building source. Kiln dried wood DOES NOT bend well.

 

[koliver]

You might consider teak. It will look like the original. If you varnish it at home (controlled conditions) before installation, you can get a long lasting finish and it will look so much better than painted trim, that you will be very happy with your choice.

I don't know how much trim you are replacing, but unless you do it all, your boat will not look right. A properly varnished piece of wood that doesn't have horizontal surfaces (to retain rainwater) will hold up for years.

Phil: I tried (on my first boat, in 1977) oak where teak belonged. It turned black quickly and started to show some rot, where teak (that I replaced it with before selling the boat) then lasted another 20 years without showing any sign of failure.

 

[Woodsong]

Keith,
One problem 2 problems with teak you can buy today:
1) It's expensive as all get out!
2) It is not the same quality as the teak they used in the '80's when they built my boat. The color also does not typically match.

I had to install a 4" horizontal filler strip in the galley below our new cooktop. I went and bought a $50 piece of teak (4"x4' long). Cut it to size, etc. Despite playing with multiple staining options and mixes, the wood is just too dark. I happened to have a scrap piece of clear cedar 1x6 laying around. I looked at it and realized the color, by luck, was darn close to the color of the galley wood. I played with some stain configurations for a few minutes and got it close to a perfect match. I installed it last weekend and it looks really good...if you stare at it you can see the difference in grain but guests and others won't see a difference I don't think.

 

[RT Firefly]

Hiya,
** As an aside, Mr. koliver, RED oak*should NOT to be used on a boat whereas WHITE oak can.
** Just saw P/F's post.* Why would anyone use cheap or unsuitable materials for a repair/replacement?* The work involved is just as much with the proper stuff which is more likely to last longer.

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 09:50:07 AM

 

[Phil Fill]

*
I try to use teak but teak is expensive and hard to find.* I sand and apply at least two coats of varnish on the teak each year, weather it needs it or not.* I find many time the caulking and/or water gets under the vanish which does cause back but also on teak.* I use bleach to lighten and kill the fungus/or what ever it is.* the hand rails on the salon roof is oak that has been stained and varnished, it been 10+ years.* Even cheap molding will work, just stain and varnish.


*
Varnish, Varnish Varnish is you and the bright work to look good and hold up through the year. If you are not up to the maintenance then paint it.* We get a lot of complements on the varnish teak trim of the Eagle.* That is what my wife bought it for to keep me busy.* *****

 

[Woodsong]

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
As an aside, Mr. koliver, RED oak*should NOT to be used on a boat whereas WHITE oak can.


-- Edited by RT Firefly on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 09:50:07 AM

Ok, I'll bite...why not use any red oak but white oak can be used? *I'm going to use neither on exterior of my boat but you got me curious.

 

[RT Firefly]

Hiya,
** Mr. Woodsong.* I don't have a clue (chemistry/biology-wise).* Just something I found out about years ago.* White oak is more expensive than red and wooden Chris Crafts used white oak for ribbing etc.* IF red was acceptable, I'm sure CC would have used it for increased profits.
** English*warships (wooden) used white oak as well.
** Similarily, african/honduran mahogany is a much better material for boats than luan mahogany.
** Found this:

http://www.thewoodbox.com/data/wood/redoakinfo.htm

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 10:38:25 AM

 

[koliver]

Tony:

I have several pieces of new teak inside and outside. I haven't had any problem matching the colours. Inside, they sun has lightened the old teak several shades, but if you pull off the old finish and sand lightly you can get the original colour back. Also if you let the sun work on the new teak, it will soon fade to the same faded colour of the old stuff. Outside, its all in the sun, so it doesn't take as long to come together.

 

[Moonstruck]

Woodsong wrote:Ok, I'll bite...why not use any red oak but white oak can be used? *I'm going to use neither on exterior of my boat but you got me curious.

Tony, RTF is on the right track.* White oak was used for ship framing for several reasons.* It is a denser, heavier wood that is a lttle less water absorbent and prone to rot, The grain is usually straighter, and so hard to break

The sea islands of Georgia were the preferred place*to cut frame pieces for ships.* The slow growing live oak trees had a very tight grain.* It was tough, and they could pick limbs and trunks that were close to the shape needed.* That cut down on joints.* If you have taken a good look at a live oak you will see that they spread out and the limbs seem to have bends for no reason.* They are a very beautiful tree.

You can take that for what it is worth.* I know nothing about MTUs.
.

*

 

[Moonstruck]

RT Firefly wrote:

** Similarily, african/honduran mahogany is a much better material for boats than luan mahogany.

RT, luan or lauan is not*a true mahogany.* Because of its somewhat similar grain to a vertical cut mahogany, it was marketed as Philippine Mahogany.* The grain is considerably more open and purvious than mahogany.* When stained it can resemble it.* It is kind of like Formica which is a brand name counter top material has almost become generic for all laminated plastic tops.

Good mahogany is a preferred material for fine furniture because it is so dimensionally stable and beautiful.* Honduras is my favorite.

*

 

[carvendive]

Honduras is my favorite as well. I carve a LOT of pieces from it.

 

[Moonstruck]

carvendive wrote:

Honduras is my favorite as well. I carve a LOT of pieces from it.

Beautiful work!

*

 

[carvendive]

One thing to consider when thinking of UHMW. I work it with carbide blades, bandsaws and routers. It is SO dense that it will deflect a blade. I've cut angled 2x3x1" blocks to fair a mounting point using a 100 tooth 10" carbide blade and had it deflect the blade. Same thing with the bandsaw. You really have to increase the blade tension I also work with Lignum Vite (second most dense wood at 80#/cu ft) and UHMW deflects a lot more than the Lignum.

 

[rusbet]

Tony, what was the final outcome with the trim pieces on the flybridge. The trim on our flybridge never seems to get dry enough for us to refinish with cetol. We might remove it and see what is behind and underneath.

 

[Woodsong]

Betty,
We have not yet installed it, but pretty sure I am going with the thin PVC lattice strips you can get from home depot, lowes, etc. This is a paintable material and very low profile. All I need to do is cover the screw holes around the edges. Only issue I am trying to resolve is how to install it! Obvious 4200 or something like that will be necessary but how to affix it! On the inside I can cut some 2x4 braces to push each side into the caulk til it sets but not sure how to get the exterior portions to stay embedded in the caulk long enough to stay in place. Gotta still figure that part out.