Fire scare

[Mambo42]

As you may know I had the boat rewired this winter after I had found multiple cables that were completely crumbled or in simply a bad condition. On purpose I used fire retardent cables and upgraded to 24 V. Also installed 8 x 400 Wp solar which run through 5 MPPT controllers and are then connected to the main charger bus bar via 35 A fuses. (5 x).

I thought it was all installed perfectly, system looks fine, set up was ok, but as we found out a week ago it was not.

We had just (about 1 hour out) left the island of Sifnos, on our way to Naxos, with the water maker on, when we were sitting on the fly bridge and suddenly i heard a faint beeping sound. If the radio would have been on I would have never heard it. After checking I found out it came from the lazarette. That meant two options, smoke from the engine room entered the lazarette and set off the smoke alarm there or it was the electrics in the lazarette.
That last option did not seem logic to me since the boat had just received a complete new installation, done by some of the best electricians on the island of Corfu.
So the only thing to do was to shut the whole boat down, which meant engines off, all electrics off, all battery switches off and find out what the source of the smoke was. As it turned out the fuse holders for the solar panels had started to melt and then burn, scorching the wooden panel on which they were mounted.
What caused this fire ?
Some of the nuts of the fuse holders had come loose or were not tightened enough. That caused a restriction and with the high amps running through the cables and connectors it was enough to raise the temperature to such levels that the plastic melted, but the fuse itself did not break, thereby keeping the source of the fire intact.
If we would not have heard the smoke alarm it would have ended in a full blown fire, luckily it did not.

After returning to Sifnos I contacted the electricians and asked them why they had used plastic fuse holders. Their answer was that these are used predominantly in boating world. So I told them to change the fuse holders for porselane fuse holders with normal porselan fuses. All plastic is now removed from the boat, the cable harness has been changed from 6 mm2 to 10 mm2 for every MPPT controller and all the nuts have been tightened by me. I found 2 other nuts that were not tight, guess this is the Greek way of working.

In all an electrical fire is a scary happening when you are out in a pretty rough sea. We hope we will never have this happen to us again.

We are now trying to continue our journey to Turkey, but the weather is prohibiting that. No idea when we will arrive, but when we do we will finish with the last upgrades: installing waveless stab 25 stabilizers and 1400 Ah of LiFePO4 Victron batteries.
When that is done I will post the whole system here, so that perhaps someone can use it as a tip for a new installation for their boat. Will also post all the specifications of the equipment used.

 

[Delfin]

As you may know I had the boat rewired this winter after I had found multiple cables that were completely crumbled or in simply a bad condition. On purpose I used fire retardent cables and upgraded to 24 V. Also installed 8 x 400 Wp solar which run through 5 MPPT controllers and are then connected to the main charger bus bar via 35 A fuses. (5 x).

I thought it was all installed perfectly, system looks fine, set up was ok, but as we found out a week ago it was not.

We had just (about 1 hour out) left the island of Sifnos, on our way to Naxos, with the water maker on, when we were sitting on the fly bridge and suddenly i heard a faint beeping sound. If the radio would have been on I would have never heard it. After checking I found out it came from the lazarette. That meant two options, smoke from the engine room entered the lazarette and set off the smoke alarm there or it was the electrics in the lazarette.
That last option did not seem logic to me since the boat had just received a complete new installation, done by some of the best electricians on the island of Corfu.
So the only thing to do was to shut the whole boat down, which meant engines off, all electrics off, all battery switches off and find out what the source of the smoke was. As it turned out the fuse holders for the solar panels had started to melt and then burn, scorching the wooden panel on which they were mounted.
What caused this fire ?
Some of the nuts of the fuse holders had come loose or were not tightened enough. That caused a restriction and with the high amps running through the cables and connectors it was enough to raise the temperature to such levels that the plastic melted, but the fuse itself did not break, thereby keeping the source of the fire intact.
If we would not have heard the smoke alarm it would have ended in a full blown fire, luckily it did not.

After returning to Sifnos I contacted the electricians and asked them why they had used plastic fuse holders. Their answer was that these are used predominantly in boating world. So I told them to change the fuse holders for porselane fuse holders with normal porselan fuses. All plastic is now removed from the boat, the cable harness has been changed from 6 mm2 to 10 mm2 for every MPPT controller and all the nuts have been tightened by me. I found 2 other nuts that were not tight, guess this is the Greek way of working.

In all an electrical fire is a scary happening when you are out in a pretty rough sea. We hope we will never have this happen to us again.

We are now trying to continue our journey to Turkey, but the weather is prohibiting that. No idea when we will arrive, but when we do we will finish with the last upgrades: installing waveless stab 25 stabilizers and 1400 Ah of LiFePO4 Victron batteries.
When that is done I will post the whole system here, so that perhaps someone can use it as a tip for a new installation for their boat. Will also post all the specifications of the equipment used.

Nothing scarier than fire at sea - Nothing.


Just FYI, but another source of fire that few think about are PC boards. The one controlling a propane sniffer started smoking and would have caught fire on my sailboat far out in the Pacific had I not seen the smoke and disconnected all power while I sorted out where it was coming from. These types of fires happen because the milliamps required to start a flame draw less than the breaker to the device protects, so nothing trips until it is too late. My son's house burned down due to a Bosch dishwasher with this exact problem - the pc board did not have a mini fuse on the board, just the 20 amp circuit breaker for the washer itself.



Lesson is keep anything with a pc board de-powered if you can, and at the first hint of smoke, kill all power.

 

[Mambo42]

Nothing scarier than fire at sea - Nothing.


Just FYI, but another source of fire that few think about are PC boards. The one controlling a propane sniffer started smoking and would have caught fire on my sailboat far out in the Pacific had I not seen the smoke and disconnected all power while I sorted out where it was coming from. These types of fires happen because the milliamps required to start a flame draw less than the breaker to the device protects, so nothing trips until it is too late. My son's house burned down due to a Bosch dishwasher with this exact problem - the pc board did not have a mini fuse on the board, just the 20 amp circuit breaker for the washer itself.



Lesson is keep anything with a pc board de-powered if you can, and at the first hint of smoke, kill all power.

You are right, the PC boards are a problem as well. Superyachtcaptain Tristan Mortlock escaped from a fire onboard the boat he was on (burned down to the ground) after they had switched on a dish washer and then went to sleep. The thing caught fire and if it wasn't for some people on other boats they would not have survived. They managed to get off the boat just in time.

After I heard this story from Tristan we only run that equipment if we are present. Now, after this fire scare, we check our electricity cables every 15 min when we are underway and using things like the water maker, dishwasher, washing machine etc. Perhaps over the top, but you cannot be too careful about boats and fire.

 

[diver dave]

…,Now, after this fire scare, we check our electricity cables every 15 min when we are underway and using things like the water maker, dishwasher, washing machine etc. Perhaps over the top, but you cannot be too careful about boats and fire.

What would be more productive is check torque on all high current connections. That is, using a torque wrench. Once and done.
I had one of those dishwasher fires at home. Luckily, granite unaffected.

 

[Gypsy Island]

@ Mambo42

I've seen those porcelain fuseholders in AC applications only. Is their current rating also applicable for DC usage?

 

[Taras]

Definitely get every smoke/CO detector in your boat replaced with the wirelessly "connected" ones so that when 1 smoke alarm goes off, they ALL go off at the sametime. This way, it doesn't matter where you are on the boat, you'll hear all the alarms going off. I purchased mine (all 10 of them) and it was very reasonable cost. All battery powered and all wirelessly connected.
An inexpensive and worthwhile safety upgrade.

 

[STB]

There is nothing at all wrong with plastic fuse holders as long as they are rated for the current. The wires' insulation, itself, is plastic, right?

There is something wrong with loose connections. They can turn into resistive heaters as well as arc. They can generate more heat than potentially many nearby materials can withstand, including the wire insulation, the fuse holders, dust and dirt in the walls and chases, and the walls, chases, and other nearby materials, themselves.

There is no guideline that suggests that wiring rated for a particular current needs to be able to directly and durably withstand the maximum temperature reachable by a heater operating at the maximum rated or supplied voltage and maximum rated or suppliably current.

It sounds to me like the entire system needs to be examined by competent and careful electricians before being re-energized.

May I also suggest wireless smoke/fire+Co alarms in each cabin and compartment as well as one in the fly bridge console as an annunciation so you can easily hear any alarm underway.

Modern systems report which unit triggered the alarm at all units. If I'm on the flybridge and smoke appears in the forward cabin, I'll quickly know exactly that, even over the radio, wind, rain, and engine noise, "Fire in kitchen!"

 

[dannc]

...
I had one of those dishwasher fires at home. Luckily, granite unaffected.

Interesting discussion about dishwashers. In the late 90's, we bought a new Maytag dishwasher. It worked once and then died. The circuit board fried out. The new board worked fine and was working fine when we sold the house.

Built a new house and used Maytag appliances. The dishwasher died in the first week with another fried board which was replaced under warranty. Another electrical part failed a few years later which I replaced and the final death knell was another circuit board shorted out and that was that. The last failure melted quite a bit of plastic.

We bought a Bosch, and knock on wood, it has been perfect. I did notice that the Bosch was designed and built to make it very easy to install. Unlike the Maytag.

Later,
Dan

 

[diver dave]

Yep. The Whirlpool family. [emoji43]*[emoji94]

I was just in mine where the dry stopped working. PCB burned out the relay eyelet. Poor trace width for the current involved. I fixed it. Lucky find.

 

[dannc]

Yep. The Whirlpool family. [emoji43]*[emoji94]

I was just in mine where the dry stopped working. PCB burned out the relay eyelet. Poor trace width for the current involved. I fixed it. Lucky find.

Our first dishwasher was when Maytag was Maytag but I think the second one was about the time they got bought out by Whirlpool. The CEO of Maytag was cheapening the products before the buy out...

Al of the Maytag appliances are gone now. Thankfully the fridge had a five year warranty because it failed at year 4.5 or there about and it was fixed for free. Then it started having problems and we replaced with a Whirlpool which died in a month or so. The store did a great job getting us a new fridge, another Whirlpool and that one, knock on wood, has been doing well. So far. The warranties are joke on all of the brands we can buy now.

The Whirlpool dryer burns out the heating element every five years or so which is easy to fix. We are on the second Whirlpool washer though I just had to fix a clogged filter which was a complete PITA to do. You basically have to disassemble the washer to change a filter.....

The washer might have to be replaced soon, but to be fair, the danged thing is used almost every day, multiple times a day.

They do NOT make them like they used too...

Later,
Dan

 

[Simi 60]

Ours had an ER fire in her previous life
Would have been traumatic.

 

[Simi 60]

But was made good again

 

[Simi 60]

.
What caused this fire ?
Some of the nuts of the fuse holders had come loose or were not tightened enough. That caused a restriction and with the high amps running through the cables and connectors it was enough to raise the temperature to such levels that the plastic melted, but the fuse itself did not break, thereby keeping the source of the fire intact.

It is something I have thought about myself

One of my thoughts were that if the nuts had been cranked up tight enough and all electrical connection that was going to be made was made would a few drops of Loctite 290 be a solution?

290 is wicking grade, made for preassembled fasteners
It'll run down threads and fill voids and then set.

If I had known about its existence prior, I would have gone this way

Loctite Electrically Conductive Adhesives
Lead-free solder alternatives for active and passive component attachment
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us...esives/electrically-conductive-adhesives.html

 

[Mambo42]

@ Mambo42

I've seen those porcelain fuseholders in AC applications only. Is their current rating also applicable for DC usage?

The ones I have are for DC. Will take a picture of them. They are sort of miniature fuses.

 

[Mambo42]

It is something I have thought about myself

One of my thoughts were that if the nuts had been cranked up tight enough and all electrical connection that was going to be made was made would a few drops of Loctite 290 be a solution?

290 is wicking grade, made for preassembled fasteners
It'll run down threads and fill voids and then set.

If I had known about its existence prior, I would have gone this way

The big mistake I made was to ASS U ME that all the nuts were tight. Never thought I had to check the work of the electricians myself. Never thought I would have to go over eacht and every single nut, bolt, connection, to check whether they had done it ok. So I did make an Ass of myself.
Locktite could be a solution, but I don't know how flammable it is. I need to check that. in any case, the porselan fuse holders cannot melt or burn, so that is a positive in any case.

 

[Mambo42]

Ours had an ER fire in her previous life
Would have been traumatic.

Wow !!! That is beyond scary and amazing the boat did not burn down to the water line ! Would like to hear your story on this one, must have been one hell of an experience.
Great rebuild though, done real good.

 

[Mambo42]

There is nothing at all wrong with plastic fuse holders as long as they are rated for the current. The wires' insulation, itself, is plastic, right?

There is something wrong with loose connections. They can turn into resistive heaters as well as arc. They can generate more heat than potentially many nearby materials can withstand, including the wire insulation, the fuse holders, dust and dirt in the walls and chases, and the walls, chases, and other nearby materials, themselves.

There is no guideline that suggests that wiring rated for a particular current needs to be able to directly and durably withstand the maximum temperature reachable by a heater operating at the maximum rated or supplied voltage and maximum rated or suppliably current.

It sounds to me like the entire system needs to be examined by competent and careful electricians before being re-energized.

May I also suggest wireless smoke/fire+Co alarms in each cabin and compartment as well as one in the fly bridge console as an annunciation so you can easily hear any alarm underway.

Modern systems report which unit triggered the alarm at all units. If I'm on the flybridge and smoke appears in the forward cabin, I'll quickly know exactly that, even over the radio, wind, rain, and engine noise, "Fire in kitchen!"

We are now on our way to Turkey and once there a different electrical company will come and check every single wire that has been installed. They will check every nut, bolt etc, to make sure it has been done OK.
I will be installing 1400 Ah of Lithium batteries, which means a lot of capacity, but also an enormous charging Amp, so need to know for sure that all is fine.
But can tell you that going around in a boat you cannot trust is not my idea of a fun time.

 

[Mambo42]

Interesting discussion about dishwashers. In the late 90's, we bought a new Maytag dishwasher. It worked once and then died. The circuit board fried out. The new board worked fine and was working fine when we sold the house.

Built a new house and used Maytag appliances. The dishwasher died in the first week with another fried board which was replaced under warranty. Another electrical part failed a few years later which I replaced and the final death knell was another circuit board shorted out and that was that. The last failure melted quite a bit of plastic.

We bought a Bosch, and knock on wood, it has been perfect. I did notice that the Bosch was designed and built to make it very easy to install. Unlike the Maytag.

Later,
Dan

Bosch is famous in Europe, they are top of the line. If you want quality you buy Bosch, Miele or Zanussi, there is nothing better than that. They do cost quite a bit of money, but they last an eternity.

 

[Mambo42]

Definitely get every smoke/CO detector in your boat replaced with the wirelessly "connected" ones so that when 1 smoke alarm goes off, they ALL go off at the sametime. This way, it doesn't matter where you are on the boat, you'll hear all the alarms going off. I purchased mine (all 10 of them) and it was very reasonable cost. All battery powered and all wirelessly connected.
An inexpensive and worthwhile safety upgrade.

I would go for a repeater of the lazarette or ER on the fly bridge, but I would not want to have all smoke alarms go off if one goes off. It makes searching for the fire a bit complicated.
But I will take a look at this, I definitely want something that can relay the alarm without having to pull a lot of wires.
Thanks

 

[Mambo42]

What would be more productive is check torque on all high current connections. That is, using a torque wrench. Once and done.
I had one of those dishwasher fires at home. Luckily, granite unaffected.

Unfortunately much of the equipment nowadays is made of material that cannot withstand high torque, so that leaves you with hand tightening everything. My engines at this moment provide a lot of vibrations, which is probably the cause of the nuts loosening up. It is basically a Murphy scenario.

 

[STB]

When you write, "Nuts loosening up", what type of "nuts" are you referring to?

I've never had screw-down terminals loosen up so soon after being tightened. I've seen some loosen after many, many years, but not quickly.

Are you referring to "wire nuts" used to twist wires together to make a connection? If so, those should /never/ be used for electrical distribution in a boat, and really ahoukdnt be used for anything more than temporary testing for anything on a boat at all. They damage the stranded wire and don't hold tightly in the marine environment.

 

[BruceK]

Bosch is famous in Europe, they are top of the line. If you want quality you buy Bosch, Miele or Zanussi, there is nothing better than that. They do cost quite a bit of money, but they last an eternity.

Maytag front loader washing machine: control board replaced under warranty, died young with gross bearing failure. The Korean made LG which replaced it is good 13 years on. Never had to use its 10 year warranty.

 

[Gypsy Island]

Having a closer look at the fotos, i would say, there are mostly missing washers and spring washers under the nuts.

 

[Simi 60]

Definitely get every smoke/CO detector in your boat replaced with the wirelessly "connected" ones so that when 1 smoke alarm goes off, they ALL go off at the sametime. This way, it doesn't matter where you are on the boat, you'll hear all the alarms going off. .

I love the idea of these but also fear time could be wasted searching multiple compartments for the source.
At least with non linked ones there is no mistaking which compartment has the problem

 

[STB]

I love the idea of these but also fear time could be wasted searching multiple compartments for the source.
At least with non linked ones there is no mistaking which compartment has the problem

The First Alert units I have speak amd they all tell you exactly which one is going off, e.g. "Fire in kitchen" or "Fire in master bedroom" or "Carbon monoxide in guest bedroom, X ppm".

So,, if one goes off, they all say the same thing, which includes the location.

Each unit is user-configured with the location name.

There are certainly still units that just beep, etc, but many models from many brands speak and give details.

 

[Mambo42]

When you write, "Nuts loosening up", what type of "nuts" are you referring to?

I've never had screw-down terminals loosen up so soon after being tightened. I've seen some loosen after many, many years, but not quickly.

Are you referring to "wire nuts" used to twist wires together to make a connection? If so, those should /never/ be used for electrical distribution in a boat, and really ahoukdnt be used for anything more than temporary testing for anything on a boat at all. They damage the stranded wire and don't hold tightly in the marine environment.

The fuses were held together with a simple size 8 nut, with a ring below (see picture).

Also, for reference, herewith some pictures of the old cables we had onboard. These were the cables leading to the starter motor of the engines. They were in a harness so you could not see it, but when we had to take the engines out this came out. That resulted in going over basically all the cables and soon I realized they all had to come out.
When I bought the boat I already had seen the spaghetti beneath the pilot house steering column, had planned to clean that up already, so this was a good opportunity to do it all at once. Took them 3 months to do the work and 99 % was done perfect. However it is the 1 % that kills you.
With the rewire I also upgraded from 12 to 24 V, installed an all Victron system, plus the 3.2 Kwp of solar.

 

[Gypsy Island]

I'm using an ir-camera regularly to detect upcoming problems in wirings. That's usefull for solar arrays wired in series too, because of the risk to develop hotspots caused by fried bypass diodes.

 

[CharlieO.]

The First Alert units I have speak amd they all tell you exactly which one is going off, e.g. "Fire in kitchen" or "Fire in master bedroom" or "Carbon monoxide in guest bedroom, X ppm".

So,, if one goes off, they all say the same thing, which includes the location.

Each unit is user-configured with the location name.

There are certainly still units that just beep, etc, but many models from many brands speak and give details.

This^^

They have them so that they will tell you which location is going off.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I have found lose nuts behind my electrical panel while searching out other things. It is SCARY.

pete

 

[Simi 60]

The First Alert units I have speak amd they all tell you exactly which one is going off, e.g. "Fire in kitchen" or "Fire in master bedroom" or "Carbon monoxide in guest bedroom, X ppm".

So,, if one goes off, they all say the same thing, which includes the location.

Each unit is user-configured with the location name.

There are certainly still units that just beep, etc, but many models from many brands speak and give details.

Cool, looking into them.
Interconnected alarms is only a recent thing in Oz - talking ones is something new again.