ranger42c - I saw the '87 on yachtworld for $49k. The pictures looked clean. My only reservation was the J&T Detroit 8.2L engine. I'd read some posts stating that it was an older engine and folks were having trouble finding parts for it. That was the boat that got me leaning more towards the perkins. Am I correct in my unerstanding of the J&T Detroit?
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ronlord
Senior Member
The older Mainships are great, watch for soft decks which seems to be the only big issue with them. The Perkins 165 NA or 200hp turbo engines will run forever with decent maintenance.
If you can pony up a few more bucks, take a look at the later model 350/390 trawlers which are the next gen Mainship trawlers.
If you can pony up a few more bucks, take a look at the later model 350/390 trawlers which are the next gen Mainship trawlers.
BruceK
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There is a world of difference between a broker recommending a surveyor, and that surveyor preferring the interests of the broker, and his own, to those of his boat buyer client. I suggest exercising great caution implying the latter.
That said, the novice boat buyer is very much in the hands of his advisers. An astute novice buyer may be able to weigh the accuracy of advice, others may not. Advisers advise but clients decide. We can only hope they do so with the best advice.
That said, the novice boat buyer is very much in the hands of his advisers. An astute novice buyer may be able to weigh the accuracy of advice, others may not. Advisers advise but clients decide. We can only hope they do so with the best advice.
FF
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Many pre sale surveyors will attempt to find enough >wrong< with the boat to pay for their service.
The insurance surveyors will do this less , but frequently claim some agency recommendations are LAW , (they are NOT) just to show how sharp they are.
Human nature is human nature, CAVIAT EMPTOR renting a surveyor.
The insurance surveyors will do this less , but frequently claim some agency recommendations are LAW , (they are NOT) just to show how sharp they are.
Human nature is human nature, CAVIAT EMPTOR renting a surveyor.
ranger58sb
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Not sure about parts. Ours was the 8.2T, and I don't remember ever having to order a part for it
Other than replacing water pump impellers, which is periodic maintenance in a (often) generic bolt-on pump, anyway.
The one issue we had sometime in '98 I think was about the heat exchanger; can't recall details, but a service notice had been published and the original owner apparently hadn't seen that. It wasn't a big deal (and not an expensive update), but I can't quite remember what it was.
The 8.2T was not held in high regard for some applications, though I suspect that was more for higher output situations. In our case, it seemed fine.
You could speak with J&T about parts, and/or check with folks on boatdiesel.com
You could also look into the parts situation for older Perkins engines, to compare; I dunno anything about that. Looks like there are several likely Mk III candidates out there with the Perkins installation...
-Chris
Nomad Willy
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I always tell people I know to find a boat that has been re-powered and re-tanked. These are the very expensive items that is best to have other people pay for. However you'll then need to accept their choices of equipment.
And of course it's ideal to find a boat that has new everything.
And of course it's ideal to find a boat that has new everything.
There is a great deal of hearsay, urban legend and B/S regarding the 8.2T. Virtually all of it stems from an early problem with cylinder head clamping force. We have twin 8.2 250's and love them. No leaks, no smoke, instant start, no troublesome injection pumps, and although I haven't needed to buy a single part or conduct one iota of maintenance beyond hoses and belts in the nine years we've owned the boat, I do keep an eye on the spares on e-bay, etc. No availability issues that I can detect. The core is basically a truck engine. Parts are everywhere. The only unique part...water cooled manifolds...are available from Mesa and are also available on the used market. The 220/250 hp turbo engines are gems. As previously stated, I'd be careful about the higher horsepower versions. Just make sure the heads have the larger diameter bolts (factory installed after s/n 8G-139423). Earlier engines should be retrofitted with the 15MM head bolts per a service bulletin and stamped ""15MM" at the forward end of the casting.
As for checking on Boat Diesel...keep in mind that the thousands of satisfied owners don't show up. But if you do go there to look at engine issues....be sure to look at every engine that is on your list as a "potential". Old Perkins, Cat, Lehman, Cummins all have their own set of problems....some of them very expensive indeed.
sunchaser
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The 8.2s are with a checkered history, whether old wives tales as Skidgear says or real as others I know say. Either way, the engines are a V8 with dual exhaust manifolds vs one on a straight 6 with resultant more plumbing and parts to deal with. Having dealt with taking a pair of 8.2s to survey some years ago (they failed) and watching a friend add a pair of JDs to replace 8.2 s, that is my direct hands on knowledge.
You may want to check up on the rumored lawsuits J and T faced over the 8.2s.
You may want to check up on the rumored lawsuits J and T faced over the 8.2s.
divebums,
I'd recommend you read the string referenced below for a detailed discussion of the Detroit 8.2T. There's a difference between "direct hands on knowledge" that is nothing more than second hand anecdotes and innuendo ....and actually living with the engine for almost ten years.
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s53/trawler-shopping-help-12762.html
I'd recommend you read the string referenced below for a detailed discussion of the Detroit 8.2T. There's a difference between "direct hands on knowledge" that is nothing more than second hand anecdotes and innuendo ....and actually living with the engine for almost ten years.
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s53/trawler-shopping-help-12762.html
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sunchaser
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Sorry Skidgear to throw water on your 8.2s, but as is divebums, I was faced with a decision as to whether to buy a vessel with 8.2s, or not. After discussions with 8.2 owners and a DD distributor in the PNW who does DD surveys, the vessel's engines were deemed not acceptable. The vessel in question was a Tolly 44. After talking with several Tolly club 8.2 owners, the decision was really pretty simple with so many better choices out there.
The OP does not currently own a vessel and he has asked for advice. His solicitation is not how to keep 8.2s running but should an engine that saw a decade or so of building, going belly up in the mid nineties, be considered over an engine brand that has seen 40 plus years of positive history. To me the answer is no.
CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
That's the route we took with our Owens. It is also the route we will strive to take when we eventually replace it too. If you like to tinker about have no fear as there's always something to do on a boat, even new or recently re-fit ones.
Have heard both negative and positive about the subject engines(2nd hand of course) to realize that an engine survey by a competent professional is the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff. All boats are not maintained equally and what you are buying in a used boat truly is the previous owners pride of ownership or lack thereof.
Once you have decided on THE boat and are ready to buy, have the surveyor ready then, arrange with the owner/broker for you and your wife to spend one night and day on board, at the dock. RUN EVERY SYSTEM FOR THE NIGHT, unplug from shore power and run the genset, a/c the works, including water and sewer systems. You will be surprised at what you learn. This includes running the main engines in idle for hours.
Been there done that.
CCC
Been there done that.
CCC
Daddyo
Guru
Charles,
That is almost never going to happen. I would never advise a seller to allow someone else to stay onboard and run systems before purchase.
ronlord
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I couldn't imagine someone allowing you to do that, but if you could, more power to you! We did that after we closed on our previous boat before transporting it home. Still found issues on the 3 day cruise home, but nothing major.
jukesy
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After many trips back and fourth over the boarder to purchase our tug, the broker offered to let us stay aboard for a weekend. We were not allowed to leave the dock but had full use of everything. It was probably what sealed the deal for the admiral.
I only comment on things that I have personally done. I never speculate on line.
I did stay on board and found a bad bearing in the generator diesel, among other things. To make it clear this was BEFORE the survey so that I could report to him and I did including the engine surveyor.
Do note that the purchase contract was signed and the seller had my, substantial deposit.
My experience only and as always YMMV.
I did stay on board and found a bad bearing in the generator diesel, among other things. To make it clear this was BEFORE the survey so that I could report to him and I did including the engine surveyor.
Do note that the purchase contract was signed and the seller had my, substantial deposit.
My experience only and as always YMMV.
As someone else said, if the seller is willing to let you stay on the boat overnight, more power to you. Can't hurt to ask. But were I selling a boat myself, I would never allow a potential buyer to spend the night. No more than I would allow a potential buyer of my house to spend a weekend in the home by themselves.
Conrad
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Although perhaps a bit unusual, the concept of overnighting on a potential purchase could be viewed as an extension of the sea trial. But only after the normal agreement is in place c/w deposit and only the subjects such as survey(s) and sea trial are left to be completed.
Charles, does the seller require you to sign anything re potential damage done during your wild overnight stay?
Charles, does the seller require you to sign anything re potential damage done during your wild overnight stay?
Conrad, no additional paperwork, recall that he had a pile of money from me, the survey and haul out was scheduled for the next day.
Had he said no then I would have insisted that I spend the day aboard all day doing the same as a night. Run all systems and engines etc. go through all the paces, and had he refused, by the way I told them that I wanted this BEFORE we signed any papers, I think that I would have walked. Yes I would have walked. I found that the batteries were BAD would start the engines ONE time and that was it.
CCC
Had he said no then I would have insisted that I spend the day aboard all day doing the same as a night. Run all systems and engines etc. go through all the paces, and had he refused, by the way I told them that I wanted this BEFORE we signed any papers, I think that I would have walked. Yes I would have walked. I found that the batteries were BAD would start the engines ONE time and that was it.
CCC
Engineman3rd
Member
Charles, I did the same thing as you on my last boat. I also was allowed to leave the dock and anchor outside the Harbor overnight. It was all written into the original purchase offer and also after an employee of the broker had checked me out on the operation of the boat.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Not a chance I would let someone stay overnight on my boat prior to closing.
As a seller there is no upside to this practice.
Selling a large boat is selling a dream. A dream of cruising, a dream of all the room to stay aboard for longer periods of time.
Having a couple look over a boat, they can see the dream.
Having a couple spend the night or worst the weekend on a boat can do nothing but take away from that dream.
Thats because the reality is that as nice as your boat is it probably does not meet everything the couple dreams about.
Nope, I'd say keep that dream alive. Let the buyers look. Let the buyers inspect. Let the buyers dream.
Do not let the buyers experience the dream. Fantasy is always better than the real thing.
This might sound harsh or even like I am advocating misleading a potential buyer. If thats the case rest assured that is not the intention.
The reality is that we as boat owners all have things we do not really like about our boats. Compromises that the designer made when building the boat. Owners learn about these things after the fact, and they learn to work around them. If prospective buyers experience too much prior to closing, then they may never buy your boat, or any boat for that matter.
I'll use my boat as an example...
I have a wet bar. What a great looking feature. As a prospective buyer I loved it. The fact is that its a waste of space. I have never used the wet bar sink.
Another is the drawers in the master stateroom. Yes there are allot of drawers. They look nice. They work great. They are also a tad smaller than I realized prior to purchase. They will fit exactly two pairs of jeans each.
Or the built in Vaccume. Great feature. I loved it. Then later I realized that without a rotating brush no vacumme works worthy a diddly on carpet.
But, do I really like my boat... Of course! I work around these and all the other little things.
If I would have focused on all the little things as a buyer, I probably would have never found a boat I was willing to buy.
So I bought the dream, and glad I did.
As a seller there is no upside to this practice.
Selling a large boat is selling a dream. A dream of cruising, a dream of all the room to stay aboard for longer periods of time.
Having a couple look over a boat, they can see the dream.
Having a couple spend the night or worst the weekend on a boat can do nothing but take away from that dream.
Thats because the reality is that as nice as your boat is it probably does not meet everything the couple dreams about.
Nope, I'd say keep that dream alive. Let the buyers look. Let the buyers inspect. Let the buyers dream.
Do not let the buyers experience the dream. Fantasy is always better than the real thing.
This might sound harsh or even like I am advocating misleading a potential buyer. If thats the case rest assured that is not the intention.
The reality is that we as boat owners all have things we do not really like about our boats. Compromises that the designer made when building the boat. Owners learn about these things after the fact, and they learn to work around them. If prospective buyers experience too much prior to closing, then they may never buy your boat, or any boat for that matter.
I'll use my boat as an example...
I have a wet bar. What a great looking feature. As a prospective buyer I loved it. The fact is that its a waste of space. I have never used the wet bar sink.
Another is the drawers in the master stateroom. Yes there are allot of drawers. They look nice. They work great. They are also a tad smaller than I realized prior to purchase. They will fit exactly two pairs of jeans each.
Or the built in Vaccume. Great feature. I loved it. Then later I realized that without a rotating brush no vacumme works worthy a diddly on carpet.
But, do I really like my boat... Of course! I work around these and all the other little things.
If I would have focused on all the little things as a buyer, I probably would have never found a boat I was willing to buy.
So I bought the dream, and glad I did.
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kulas44
Guru
I had a rock solid buyer. I told him every negative thing I knew about the boat. He was a knowledgeable boater. He wanted to spend some time on the boat so I told him to get the key from the marina manager, just for the day, as I could not be there. He looked over every inch of it, I'm sure. Decided not to buy, ok, no harm done. EXCEPT, he turned off my freezer and fridge, both full of stuff, lots of fish in the freezer, and turned all 4 bilge pump zones to the OFF position. A week later a friend checked on the boat and calls to tell me the freezer is off and has leaked it contents into the saloon carpet, flies are thick. I tell him to turn on the breaker and I will be there asap. I got there later in the week and found the bilge pumps off. Good thing the old girl dont leak, she may have been on the bottom. That will never happen again, I dont care who he is or how much he seams to know.
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This thread reminds me of a movie scene from "Clear and Present Danger":
[Jack needs a helicopter]
Jack Ryan: I'm here to rent the Huey.
Helicopter owner: We don't rent it anymore, but it is for sale.
Jack Ryan: How much?
Helicopter owner: Two million dollars.
Jack Ryan: Uh, my pilot and I will have to take it for a test drive.
Helicopter owner: Of course, you just have to leave a deposit.
Jack Ryan: How much is that?
Helicopter owner: Two million dollars.
While I can not refute the experience of others, I will say that this is the first time I've ever heard of a potential buyer being allowed to overnight on a vessel prior to becoming the owner of a vessel. IMO, doing so opens a Pandora's box full of potential problems. The prospective buyer has no vested financial interest in the vessel (and a deposit doesn't count as vested interest). Allowing the prospective buyer free and full access to poke and prod on a vessel unknown to him is irresponsible.
[Jack needs a helicopter]
Jack Ryan: I'm here to rent the Huey.
Helicopter owner: We don't rent it anymore, but it is for sale.
Jack Ryan: How much?
Helicopter owner: Two million dollars.
Jack Ryan: Uh, my pilot and I will have to take it for a test drive.
Helicopter owner: Of course, you just have to leave a deposit.
Jack Ryan: How much is that?
Helicopter owner: Two million dollars.
While I can not refute the experience of others, I will say that this is the first time I've ever heard of a potential buyer being allowed to overnight on a vessel prior to becoming the owner of a vessel. IMO, doing so opens a Pandora's box full of potential problems. The prospective buyer has no vested financial interest in the vessel (and a deposit doesn't count as vested interest). Allowing the prospective buyer free and full access to poke and prod on a vessel unknown to him is irresponsible.
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
We had a boat for sale down here- Knowledgeable buyer came to check it out. Talked a good talk, good enough for broker to let him stay on the boat overnight with survey the next day. Well, some time during the night the guy found the liquor stash and helped himself to a considerable amount. Now properly drunk, he fell off the boat between the boat and the dock. Tried to climb up oyster and barnacle covered piles and cut himself to shreds. Finally got out of the water and into the boat. Bled all over. Apparently had trouble sleeping, so he tried different bunks and sofas, bleeding on all. Stumbling around, knocked all sorts of things over, breaking fixtures, etc. 7am broker and surveyor show up to a disaster. Guy was still drunk and incoherent. Survey day was canceled. Boat damage in several thousands. Later, guy wanted his deposit back and was talking about suing for his injuries. Broker and owner were so mad they threatened to "go mafia" on him. Last I heard, the guy lost his deposit and crawled back under a rock somewhere.
