first time in fog

[OldDan1943]

LOL spelling error noted but, I may need a sexton of the church to remind God I am out in the ocean and in need of some guidance.

 

[slowgoesit]

OldDan,


Loran is long gone. You "could" get yourself an ADF (low freq) receiver that points to a radio station and using two stations be able to at least find out about where you are. Horrible for setting up a track unless you're going two or from.

The problem with this solution is that nowadays lots of people don't have paper charts . . . so there are going to be lots of grease pencil tracks on their chartplotter screen!

 

[OldDan1943]

The problem with this solution is that nowadays lots of people don't have paper charts . . . so there are going to be lots of grease pencil tracks on their chartplotter screen!

I like paper charts to get the big picture and a place to plot position, the time and direction of travel.

 

[Seevee]

The problem with this solution is that nowadays lots of people don't have paper charts . . . so there are going to be lots of grease pencil tracks on their chartplotter screen!

Slow,


True,



But the chart on your Ipad will not disappear if GPS is lost, only the positioning.


And in ANY situation, if one is situationally aware, they will most likely do fine, plane or boat.



And a plane is probably easier. We have comm radios, call ATC and get radar vectors. Don't have that in a boat.

 

[psneeld]

Slow,


True,



But the chart on your Ipad will not disappear if GPS is lost, only the positioning.


And in ANY situation, if one is situationally aware, they will most likely do fine, plane or boat.



And a plane is probably easier. We have comm radios, call ATC and get radar vectors. Don't have that in a boat.

Been trying to convey this message for years...funny how it is lost on some.

Plus electronic plotting is mush more accurate and sometimes faster than paper.

As far as an LOP from a radio tower electronically.....easy peezy.....

 

[greatpapabear]

When I started flying commercially in 1970 for BOAC (later renamed British Airway) we used LORAN and Astro for crossing large land and sea masses.

 

[Seevee]

When I started flying commercially in 1970 for BOAC (later renamed British Airway) we used LORAN and Astro for crossing large land and sea masses.

Great Papa,


Astro? What's that.


In my early years we used VLF Omega and later, INS (inertial nav system), which was totally independent from the outside. (However, needed updating occasionally), then later IRS (Inertial reference System... similar to INS, but updated with GPS and VOR/DME inputs, and could operate by itself for awhile if the inputs failed.



However, lots of ways to get around.

 

[greatpapabear]

Great Papa,

Astro? What's that.

In my early years we used VLF Omega and later, INS (inertial nav system), which was totally independent from the outside. (However, needed updating occasionally), then later IRS (Inertial reference System... similar to INS, but updated with GPS and VOR/DME inputs, and could operate by itself for awhile if the inputs failed.

However, lots of ways to get around.

Astro = Astro navigation. There was a valve/hole in the top of the Boeing 707 cockpit. The onboard sextant had a periscope. You'd place this against the valve, move a lever and the top of the sextant would poke through so you could take sun/moon/star shots. Using the almanac you could plot your position. This was used before the advent of INS, let alone GPS, and over areas with no navigational aids, such as oceans, deserts and large areas of Asia.

 

[Seevee]

Astro = Astro navigation. There was a valve/hole in the top of the Boeing 707 cockpit. The onboard sextant had a periscope. You'd place this against the valve, move a lever and the top of the sextant would poke through so you could take sun/moon/star shots. Using the almanac you could plot your position. This was used before the advent of INS, let alone GPS, and over areas with no navigational aids, such as oceans, deserts and large areas of Asia.

Great Papa,


Geeze, you're older than I am


The 707 was before my time. My first plane was a 727, and it was fun...to a point, but landed horribly. My first gig was long range mostly domestic (1500 miles) from cold areas to resort area in FL, Mexico, Caribbean, Las Vegas. Good job.

 

[OldDan1943]

I suspect it was exciting for planes and boats when during the gulf war, the govt shut down GPS without warning.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

I suspect it was exciting for planes and boats when during the gulf war, the govt shut down GPS without warning.

I'm thinking no one was using GPS significantly for navigation in the early 1990's? Until technology improved and unit cost decreased later that decade, and then selective availability ended in 2000? I began my flight training in the late nineties and GPS wasn't even in the curriculum, I don't remember portable units in people's cockpits being at all common until after 2000.

I know the FAA didn't certify a TSO unit for instrument flight rules use until the mid-nineties.

 

[psneeld]

The military had codes to override selective availability during the 90s.


I know I had to carry them around on my neck whenever out overnight.


Even with it turned on the average position was still something like 200 feet or better.


https://gisgeography.com/selective-availability-gps/

"When selective availability was enabled, this added 50 meters of error horizontally and 100 meters vertically to GPS signals."

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Yes, of course, I should have said "...besides the military."

On the other hand I bought my first Garmin handheld GPS around 1994 or 1995 I believe - I had to have one because my brother the early adopter guy had one In retrospect it was pretty useless for what I was doing (hiking). Having true basemap layers is what really made GPS units useful which didn't happen for a long while.

Now, my brother is a software engineer for Garmin. Funny.

 

[Seevee]

I'm thinking no one was using GPS significantly for navigation in the early 1990's? Until technology improved and unit cost decreased later that decade, and then selective availability ended in 2000? I began my flight training in the late nineties and GPS wasn't even in the curriculum, I don't remember portable units in people's cockpits being at all common until after 2000.

I know the FAA didn't certify a TSO unit for instrument flight rules use until the mid-nineties.

I installed a Trimble 2000A GPS in my plane in 1997 and there were several prior to that. Was pricey back then.....



I believe the first certified one, made by Texas Instruments with one waypoint came out in late 1980s, but can't remember. But had a portable Loran in my plane in the mid 80s (used it on the boat to find lobsters).

 

[Portage_Bay]

I used an interesting receiver back when GPS was being implemented. It was a Northstar combination Loran C and GPS receiver. The full GPS constellation was not yet up and selective availability was in use. There was some logic built in to the receiver that used the two signals and built a correction. When operating in an area new to the receiver the positioning was as inaccurate in terms of horizontal displacement as any Loran C receiver near shore. And as jumpy as a GPS receiver on selective availability. Very quickly as the correction table built up the accuracy and stability improved.

When the full constellation was operational and DGPS came on line it became a dinosaur.

 

[OldDan1943]

In the middle to late 90s, I bought a Magellan Map 330M hand held GPS.
Shortly after I bought my N46. It was up in Long Island. A licensed Captain and I brought the boat down to Miami.... Came a LORAN unit but, one really outdated chip. Basically useless.
The Captain took one look at Magellan and laughed. When we got to Miami, he admitted w/o that GPS unit, we would have had a lot of trouble getting down, especially because we spent lots of time outside of the ICW.
I still have the unit.

 

[greatpapabear]

Is everyone here too young to remember plotting a LORAN fix?

Using a scope and determining which was the sky wave or ground wave, and which others were just reflections? Great fun, especially where you're travelling at 8 miles/minute.

 

[psneeld]

Used it to keep us out of Cuban airspace back in the early 80s......though one of our guys seemed not too good at it....kept getting interrepted.

 

[OldDan1943]

Is everyone here too young to remember plotting a LORAN fix?

Finally, I am too young for something.

Next event, too old to remember something.

 

[ScottC]

Hi Seevee,

The link to my radar article in Passage Maker is here: https://www.passagemaker.com/technical/radar-use-fog

Let me know if you want further clarification.

As an aside, I don't put anyone in the bows as a look out. Why? Fog is normally very cold and eyes can become water logged. I prefer I to have my wife 'on weapons' (radar), scanning between 1 mile and 6 miles. Our radar can see better than we can hear.

Really nice article. Thanks for posting!!

 

[ddw36]

Actually, both sides and top of the pilothouse (as well as phoney stack) are colored bright yellow. While the boat was being constructed, I initially selected safety orange. Solicited comments from TFrs. I followed their advice to go bright yellow. Actually, bright yellow appears more visible to me. Also, makes the boat easily identified from above.

I've been thinking that a pulsating yellow light, placed high up might be seen well, altho COLREGS appear silent on it. In this Wiki article, it's called "selective yellow," the color used on autos, etc., for fog lights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow

 

[ScottC]

If you ventured inland in Europe with that flashing yellow light, you would have to think about:

CEVNI Article 3.28 – Additional marking for vessels under way carrying out work in the waterwayVessels under way carrying out work in the waterway or engaged in sounding or measuring operations may, without prejudice to the marking applicable to them under the other provisions of these regulations, display:By day and by night:A bright or ordinary yellow scintillating light visible from all directions.The use of this marking shall be restricted to vessels having written authorization from the competent authorities.

 

[psneeld]

I've been thinking that a pulsating yellow light, placed high up might be seen well, altho COLREGS appear silent on it. In this Wiki article, it's called "selective yellow," the color used on autos, etc., for fog lights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow

Pretty sure yellow flashing light is for subs on the surface.

 

[greatpapabear]

The International Collision Regs state that an all round flashing yellow is for a Hovercraft whilst on its air cushion.

"An air-cushion vessel when operating in the non-displacement mode shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light."

Lights rule 23.b

 

[OldDan1943]

When I was in the Navy, they were called Grimes light, amber and they rotated 360 degrees.
They were on subs and destroyers. I dont know about other class ships.

 

[ddw36]

I don't see how there could be a conflict about use of yellow lights as stated, with my suggestion. I'm sure COLREGS or any other regulations could specify for use in foggy conditions, in which case uses of yellow lights as stated could still be used, except that with this addition, recreational and perhaps work boats could be required to employ yellow lights in fog. When it's foggy, all boats would be using yellow lights. My only question is effectiveness of yellow lights to beam across foggy distances.

 

[Seevee]

Is everyone here too young to remember plotting a LORAN fix?

Using a scope and determining which was the sky wave or ground wave, and which others were just reflections? Great fun, especially where you're travelling at 8 miles/minute.

Yep,

That was a pain. Had to be sure you had good triangulation. There was no lat long, just line of position. But, it worked.



But not familiar with a sky wave?

 

[OldDan1943]

The International Collision Regs state that an all round flashing yellow is for a Hovercraft whilst on its air cushion.

"An air-cushion vessel when operating in the non-displacement mode shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light."

Lights rule 23.b

And sea planes???

 

[SoWhat]

Back in the olden days, when I had to walk 3 miles to school in raging blizzards, we spent a lot of time in Boston harbor on a wooden boat, no electronics, no loran, no vhf, and the compass was probably dry. I do remember trying to get back one night coming through Hull Gut with a half dead flashlight trying to find buoys. I dropped the flashlight overboard when we got to the dock in Hingham. Curtailed our night operations for awhile.

Now I have 3 MFD's and zip around the islands convinced I know exactly where I am wondering how is it possible that people still run over the rocks at Nixes Mate.

 

[Codger2]

Astro = Astro navigation. There was a valve/hole in the top of the Boeing 707 cockpit. The onboard sextant had a periscope. You'd place this against the valve, move a lever and the top of the sextant would poke through so you could take sun/moon/star shots. Using the almanac you could plot your position. This was used before the advent of INS, let alone GPS, and over areas with no navigational aids, such as oceans, deserts and large areas of Asia.

WOW! I'm almost 80 & never knew that! Thanks so much!