Ford Lehman 120 locked up

[sunchaser]

Now that a system I have not looked at in 3 years...about 5-600 hrs (you say you have the books, what do they say) but I suspect (oh oh) this system was overhauled shortly before I got it due to used parts (new parts are better) found in the boat from water pumps etc. Should I be worried? Should I be tearing into (a simple job) the impellers etc before going out again..?

To avoid the plight of the OP, get into the HX and RW system ASAP.

 

[Tangler]

will do...like I hav`nt got enuf to do....

 

[Anthonyd]

Lets see now - 8 hours per day 5 days per week is about 2000 hours per year. I say BS to your 85,000 hours. I have run lots of Grove cranes and 500 hours per year was a lot. The 3116 and its earlier versions had severe head problems with the slightest of an overheat. We found that clean radiators, never low coolant levels and change out - in advance of failure -water pumps were the key to longevity on those smaller Cat 6s.

Yes good PMs as you say, but a 3116 in a light duty crane vs a marine environment is a very different world.

I guess in my haste, I didn't give the specifics. There is drive time and non work time on the hour meter as well as work hours. Also, there are times in the winter when the machine was left running 24/7. January's can be brutal in the midwest. It was also built in 1979 and was the owner's 'bread and butter' machine as he put it. I worked on the machine in 2004 so it was 25 years old. So the math would be: 85000/25=3400 hours a year or about 68 hours a week. So at five days a week that would be about 13.6 hours a day. So if the owner had to drive to a job, set up the crane, work 8.5, tear down the crane, drive back to the yard, it's possible. Plus if he worked longer days and extra days it becomes probable. So, next time you call B.S. on someone, you might want to ask yourself to what end would a person say this? I have no motive for embellishment, and I have nothing to gain. I just thought is was a good example from an experience I had. So for you then, is it safe to say that just because you didn't hear the tree fall down, then it didn't? Or is it that you don't believe things you do not understand? Either way it makes no difference to me. Cheers

 

[sunchaser]

Or is it that you don't believe things you do not understand? Either way it makes no difference to me. Cheers

It is really simple, I don't believe 85,000 hours on a Cat 6 in a crane that ran all day at 2700 RPM. Like you say, it makes no difference to me what you claim. By the way, when did the 3116 model number get designated?

 

[River Cruiser]

It is really simple, I don't believe 85,000 hours on a Cat 6 in a crane that ran all day at 2700 RPM. Like you say, it makes no difference to me what you claim. By the way, when did the 3116 model number get designated?

I worked on a lot of different cat equipment & diesels & the 1st time I ran across the 3116 was in the early 90s in a new loader. Ran a couple Grove hydraulic cranes & the carrier & crane both had Detroits for power. If one ever had 85,000 hours its been rebuilt several times as would of been the rest of the rig.

 

[Anthonyd]

Thank your correcting me. You are right. I dug through my old service records and found that the engine was a Detroit 6v-53. I apologize for the mis-information.

 

[swampu]

Back to the op's question, I have detroits and there is a cover on the rear of the engine that hides the timing gears and the oil pump for the transmission. Maybe you have some gears with a chunk of metal stuck in them. Start pulling access plates off and see what you see.

 

[VixenII]

Swampu, All FL 120 owners would love to have said inspection plates, but alas, they don't exist. The damper plate is only accessable after removing the transmission and flywheel housing. The timing gears are located on the front under a lightweight cover - BUT to access the gears, you have to remove the cam shaft drive pulley - set in place with 150+ ft. lbs. torque - requires a big impact wrench. With a simple socket and breaker bar, I was only able to bar the engine over.

 

[VixenII]

Correction - the crank shaft drive pulley not the cam shaft....

 

[RickB]

Stop trying to bar it over. Doing so will only increase the damage.

Start tearing it down and find out what happened, then find out why.

 

[Captain K]

Every chance I get, I dive into the engine room and caress my FL 120's, gently checking their fluids and general condition. Makes me feel better. So far, knock wood, both have performed flawlessly with the TLC I lavish on them. Each has just under 2,900 hours, original 1978 installs on my Marine Trader 44. Over the past 40 years in commercial operations I've run Yanmar's, Detroits, Cummins, Volvos, Cats, Universals, Mercedes MDF, even EMD's (on a 148' tugboat). Among them all, my FL's rate near the top in terms of dependability, simplicity, and efficiency. Just a damn good power plant.

 

[patzfan4eva]

Los Angeles Mechanic

Anyone have a recommended Ford Lehman mechanic in the Los Angeles area?

 

[dhmeissner]

To avoid the plight of the OP, get into the HX and RW system ASAP.

What is this please?

 

[mahal]

What is this please?

OP = original poster
HX = heat exchanger
RW = raw water
ASAP = now

 

[dhmeissner]

ROTFLMAO


It was the HX I was wondering about. Thanks!

 

[badu11]

This week we pulled the head and found anti-freeze sitting in 2 of the pistons. Today we flipped the engine, pulled the pan and found a bearing seized up. As soon as we released that bearing, the crank spun freely.

Our diagnoses, was that we had a small breach in the head gasket that didnt show any signs to us, until it failed, filling a cyclinder or 2, which chewed up the bearing. The bearing failing was the noise we must of heard until the engine siezed up. There was no signs on the bearing half on the lower half of the connecting rod, gone. Top part of the bearing was in bad shape.

Crank has some groves where that bearing failed as well as the connectying rod and lower half. All cyclinder walls look good.

Outside of replacing all of the bearings, getting the crank cleaned up, probably new set of rings and complete gasket set, what would you guys recomend to replace as new parts to get a piece of mind for many more hours of use.

I dont mind spending the money where it is needed, but as others have said, I dont plan on throwing new parts at it just to spend money.

Thanks
bob..

 

[bobofthenorth]

I'd be surprised if you can "clean up" that crank. Check out remans before you go any further. FWIW this is likely a failure that regular oil sampling would have identified. My guess is that antifreeze in the oil eventually took out the bearing.

 

[sunchaser]

FWIW this is likely a failure that regular (Once per year may not have picked it up)oil sampling would have identified.

IMHO any need to add coolant must be checked out very quickly - do an IRREGULAR oil sample and look around the ER very carefully. Be sure the testing lab knows you are running the sample for a potential coolant leak.

Many don't, but a daily check of coolant level is a good idea.

 

[bobofthenorth]

Many don't, but a daily check of coolant level is a good idea.

Absolutely and you need to figure out where its going if you need to add coolant. Failure to do that cost me an 8-92 inframe about 6 years ago now. A good education is expensive no matter how you get it but I could have done nicely without that little bit of learning. Fortunately I didn't need a crank because I believe that a new 8-92 crank alone would exceed the price of a rebuilt 120 Lehman.

 

[VixenII]

Sounds like you have it all sussed out. American Diesel can provide the oversize bearings, connecting rod, and rings if necessary. (I wish I had spent the money that I didn't have... on a set of rings - my engine runs fine but I now have some smoke and additional oil use.) In addition to the parts you mentioned - look into the oversize oil lines that are available - Bob and Brian (American Diesel) both told me that the originals are too small to provide sufficient oil flow to the number six cylinder. Out of curiousity, which cylinders had the coolant?

 

[sunchaser]

Badu11

Replacing broken parts is good, but finding out the root case of failure is better. The reasons for failure may still exist after you replace the rings, rods, bearings etc.

 

[VixenII]

Badu...
Since the head is already removed, you might as well have it checked for cracks. Some are not very obvious but will show up with a dye penetrant or even a mag particle inspection. The head shop should also polish and lap the valve seats. You have said you thought the head gasket was compromised so you may see some discoloration in the area of the coolant filled pistons. And hopefully, it is just the gasket. There just aren't too many things that allow coolant to enter the pistons.

 

[ksanders]

perhaps I go for the overkill, but...

You've got the engine out

You've got it partially torn down.

I'd just bite the bullet and either have it comepletly overhauled, or drop in a reman unit.

Major engine work is painful, but if you do it now, you won't have to do it all again later.

Another issue...

Do you have an all risk yacht insurance policy?

If you do then the loss will probably be covered.

 

[Keith]

Replace the damper plate while you've got it all apart. Keep the old one for an emergency spare. Agree with Kevin...might as well do it all while it's apart, unless you're just getting it to run long enough to sell.

 

[Marin]

Not knowing your financial situation it's easy to give advice that's not realistic. But if I was in your situation and was planning to keep the boat for quite awhile and had to have the engine out anyway, I'd use the opportunity to simply re-engine the boat. Get rid of the heavy, noisy, inefficient, and polluting FL120 altogether and replace it with something more modern. A Cummins or a Lugger, for example.

I learned a long time ago from experts with the Ford of England diesels in the UK that the number one killer of the Ford Dorset/FL120 is overheating. The head gasket is relatively weak and is susceptible to failure with even a mild overheat. Other components will suffer, too. So if the engine in your boat has been run too hot in the past which eventually led to the failure you've experienced, there could be any number of other problems with it now, too.

If you're determined to keep it I think the comments to have the engine totally gone over and overhauled are sound. As opposed to simply fixing the obvious and putting it back together again.

But to my way of thinking, a repower would be even smarter IF the financial situation make it viable.

 

[Northern Spy]

^^^ this.

 

[FF]

Outside of replacing all of the bearings, getting the crank cleaned up, probably new set of rings and complete gasket set, what would you guys recomend to replace as new parts to get a piece of mind for many more hours of use.

Sounds like you have it , tho I would at least replace the valve springs ,and certainly clean and lap in the valves.
If the valve guides are OK check into replacing or adding on a valve seal setup.
Truing the head gasket surface is cheap & insurance.

I expect the engine is mid life so will plonk along for another couple of thousand hours , at least another decade with PM.

Perfection is not the goal, a good service life at low coat is the goal.

Leave BESTITI$ for those that have it as their hobby.

 

[sunchaser]

Perfection is not the goal, a good service life at low coat is the goal.

.

Sometimes they are the same FF

Again, as raised in past posts:

• What caused the failure, the head gasket may only be the symptom
• Have all parts and pieces been thoroughly checked out
• Would the value, future resale and reliability of the boat be improved by an engine exchange

 

[ksanders]

Outside of replacing all of the bearings, getting the crank cleaned up, probably new set of rings and complete gasket set, what would you guys recomend to replace as new parts to get a piece of mind for many more hours of use.

Sounds like you have it , tho I would at least replace the valve springs ,and certainly clean and lap in the valves.
If the valve guides are OK check into replacing or adding on a valve seal setup.
Truing the head gasket surface is cheap & insurance.

I expect the engine is mid life so will plonk along for another couple of thousand hours , at least another decade with PM.

Perfection is not the goal, a good service life at low coat is the goal.

Leave BESTITI$ for those that have it as their hobby.

I would never dream of just re-bearing the engine and put back together.

What caused the original failure? Was it overheat, lube oil contamination, what??? Perfectly good bearings midlife very rarely fail on their own, something causes them to fail.

We all know a rebuild involves much more than a few bearings and a gasket kit.

 

[sunchaser]

Today while out on cruise my lehman 120 locked up. She was running fine but started to make some noise, so I dropped the rpm. She kept running for another 15-20 mins with the noise and then she stopped and would not crank.
QUOTE]

Back to the OP's first paragraph. This does not appear to be a fix it cheap problem - soluition. It was run to near or total destruction.